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Sexism in Fate/stay night.

I 100% recommend [Fate/Stay Night] to anyone. I think that no matter what your tastes are, it is top notch and will be enjoyed. I'm even thinking about lending it to a friend who has never watched an anime before.

Unless you can't stand the sexism that pervades the series.

Not sure what you mean by that... I didn't feel it was sexist at all. Can you be more specific why you feel that way?

Shiro: Saber, I can't let you fight!
Saber: But why? I'm a skilled warrior!
Shiro: Its because... you're a woman!

Well, that's what he may as well have said anyways. It got pretty annoying.

I think it was more in his nature to be protective... and I am not overly sensitive of that comment, even being a strong woman myself. LOL

You can't take that comment and think overall the series is sexist. I mean come on, Saber is a woman and the strongest of them all. If the theme of the series itself was 'sexist' then the strong lead would have been a man. Also, he was fine letting Rin fight on her own, so I am assuming that he acted that way towards Saber because spoiler[ he loved her.] That is all speculation of course. It's not like I claim to read the mind of a fictional character.

kilaria wrote:

Not sure what you mean by that... I didn't feel it was sexist at all. Can you be more specific why you feel that way?

Shiro, for one. Now, the series explains his motivation for wanting to protect people as a general wanting to protect everyone, but he only ever applies it towards females, pretty much all of whom are actually stronger than he is. His desire to protect Saber is completely irrational and dangerous. She (and all the other servants) is inhumanly strong and don't really die anyway, as they can be brought back to participate in future iterations of the war. Yet Shiro insists on leaping in to physically defend her when he is physically far weaker and has pretty much no abilities of his own. He only survives because the other masters suddenly decide not to kill him.

There's also the repeated issue of all the females being portrayed as emotionally fragile, undermining their physical or mental capabilites and requiring a man to provide support for their weak feminine psyches. Rin is a far better mage than Shiro, but she's cold, and thus incapable of success until she becomes friends with Shiro. Illya has no friends, and despite Berserker's brute force, can't follow through with victory, and really only wants Shiro to be her big brother. Caster I can't get into without major spoilers, but that's one of the more ridiculous examples in the series. Saber is the worst, as she appears strong and confident at first, but Shiro's repeated insistence on him protecting her despite there being no evidence that she needs protecting wears her down, and we eventually discover that she only ever really wanted a big strong man to protect her so she could act like a proper woman.

kilaria wrote:

You can't take that comment and think overall the series is sexist. I mean come on, Saber is a woman and the strongest of them all. If the theme of the series itself was 'sexist' then the strong lead would have been a man.

Shiro was the lead. He became strong at the end thanks to plot device. Sexist.

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Also, he was fine letting Rin fight on her own, so I am assuming that he acted that way towards Saber because spoiler[ he loved her.] That is all speculation of course. It's not like I claim to read the mind of a fictional character.

He didn't let Rin fight on her own, Rin didn't do actual fighting (a little magic, but usually from safe distances). Despite being the more capable mage, she ends up being mere support for Shiro because he's some sort of chosen one type.

Just want to clear up that I was not the one calling it sexist, I just immediately thought of that aspect after reading Dorcas's comment. Personally, I thought it just made Shiro look like an ass-hat.

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I mean come on, Saber is a woman and the strongest of them all. If the theme of the series itself was 'sexist' then the strong lead would have been a man.

Susan Bordo makes a very interesting (and unexpected) take on the whole 'tough woman' thing in her book Unbearable Weight, but I sure as heck am not about to start that kind of debate here as I'm sure the mods will go all .

EDIT: Dorcas's response came while I was typing mine:

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Now, the series explains his motivation for wanting to protect people as a general wanting to protect everyone, but he only ever applies it towards females, pretty much all of whom are actually stronger than he is.

This is true. I especially saw it with Illya. spoiler[Didn't she kill Shiro's classmate, Shinji, in cold blood? After Saber defeated Rider, Shinji ran, he was already no longer a threat, but Illya kills him anyways. I also remember her bragging about it to Shiro. Shiro wanted Shinji to pay for endangering the lives of innocents, but Illya, who actually killed somebody (not in self-defense, not in battle, but in cold blood) only got the punishment of staying in Shiro's house.] That really was a clear case of preferential treatment.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

His desire to protect Saber is completely irrational and dangerous... insists on leaping in to physically defend her when he is physically far weaker and has pretty much no abilities of his own.

Oh... this! I almost dropped the series after buying it because Shiro reminded me of Raki from Claymore, whom I despise (I was so disappointed that spoiler[he didn't die on his walkabout, which he so should have in the context of the story's setting]). His ignorance gets people injured and his stupidity prevents any amount of reason from getting through to him. But he stays stupid that way, whereas at least Shirou learns.


But I have to say, that's the best analysis of sexism I've read for an anime. I always shut down any political brain cells in watching entertainment, unless it's forced on me, at which point I react negatively and note that author/director for future avoidance. So that subtext didn't register automatically. It also falls in line with traditional Western depictions, so doesn't stand out. I realize that is part of the issue, but just saying... Your description of the subtle subversion of the strength of the females under the auspices of "protection" is spot on and interesting.

Not trying to veer off into politics here. Just wanted to acknowledge the insight.

All this Fate/Stay Night bashing is bugging me.

Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:

Shiro, for one. Now, the series explains his motivation for wanting to protect people as a general wanting to protect everyone, but he only ever applies it towards females, pretty much all of whom are actually stronger than he is.

Yes Shiro doesn't really get all protective of any guys in the series but then, Shirow only knows about 4 people who aren't trying to murder him. 3 of them are women. So it's not so much that he tries to protect only women. It's that he tries to protect everyone who isn't Archer. I suppose you could conclude from that that it's because he's a man. That's seems largely baseless to me though. Isn't it more likely that Archer is just the exception for some other reason? Like the fact that he's much older than Shiro? (Everyone else is his age or younger). Also, it's probably more reasonable for him to protect his own servant that someone else servant. In fact, he doesn't even really deal with Archer all that much. He's usually in spirit form or whatever it's called. He definitely comes across a whole lot less like a real person than Saber (regardless of gender). Overall, it's not surprising that he wouldn't get the whole protection treatment.

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His desire to protect Saber is completely irrational and dangerous. She (and all the other servants) is inhumanly strong and don't really die anyway, as they can be brought back to participate in future iterations of the war. Yet Shiro insists on leaping in to physically defend her when he is physically far weaker and has pretty much no abilities of his own. He only survives because the other masters suddenly decide not to kill him.

That makes him an idealistic idiot. Not a sexist.

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Shiro was the lead. He became strong at the end thanks to plot device. Sexist.

So then is it sexist too in every Shonen series ever where thanks to some plot device the male lead eventually becomes stronger than other more initially capable characters (at least some of whom are women)? People like it when the lead starts weak but gets stronger. You're mistaken to think this is exclusive to FSN or to read into it too much.

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Rin is a far better mage than Shiro, but she's cold, and thus incapable of success until she becomes friends with Shiro.

I'm really not sure why you'd suggest such a causation. Rin seemed to be doing just fine before she teams up with Shiro. In any case though, clearly Shiro is in just the same situation. In fact, Rin plays a far bigger role in Shiro's success (in even the most basic sense. ie. not getting dead very quickly) than he does in hers. They both work together to stay alive and accomplish their goals but if anyone needed the other it was Shiro.

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He didn't let Rin fight on her own, Rin didn't do actual fighting (a little magic, but usually from safe distances).

Yeah but Rin is a master. She's clearly not supposed to go in there and slug it out with Berserker hand to hand. She's supposed to send her servant and perhaps support him with magic. All of this she does quite effectively. Just because Shiro is an idiot who doesn't get this concept doesn't mean she should do the same. As you yourself said, it's not smart.

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Despite being the more capable mage, she ends up being mere support for Shiro because he's some sort of chosen one type.

Well as I said before, the 'chosen one' plot device is hardly specific to FSN. Plus, I'd say she plays more than a support role for the first part of the series. They all seemed to be working pretty equally together until spoiler[Archer got killed. Yeah, that kind of did push her into a support role. But what do you expect? As I mentioned before, that's kind of how the Holy Grail war works. You fight using your servant. Once they're gone you're more or less out or at best in a support role.]

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Saber is the worst, as she appears strong and confident at first, but Shiro's repeated insistence on him protecting her despite there being no evidence that she needs protecting wears her down, and we eventually discover that she only ever really wanted a big strong man to protect her so she could act like a proper woman.

I think you're letting your preconception that this series is 'sexist' lead you to assume the worst. I really wouldn't interpret it as such. Indeed, she is strong and determined initially. But because of her past she is also perpetually on guard to a fault. Right from the start of the series she treats everything like a war. Just because she eventually comes to let others in and rely on them a bit doesn't mean she's become weak. It means she's become human. It's actually positive development in my view.

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Illya has no friends, and despite Berserker's brute force, can't follow through with victory, and really only wants Shiro to be her big brother.

Yeah but Illya is like ten. Can't we cut her just a bit of slack here? All of this seems fairly reasonable for a little kid.

Of course Shiro is an idealistic idiot. I don't know where the sexism theories come from. It was written by Nasu Kinoko ffs.
On a side note, I'm really waiting for the movie, since Rin is supposed to play a much greater role there (and Rin is win).

Yes Shiro doesn't really get all protective of any guys in the series but then, Shirow only knows about 4 people who aren't trying to murder him. 3 of them are women. So it's not so much that he tries to protect only women. It's that he tries to protect everyone who isn't Archer. I suppose you could conclude from that that it's because he's a man. That's seems largely baseless to me though. Isn't it more likely that Archer is just the exception for some other reason? Like the fact that he's much older than Shiro? (Everyone else is his age or younger). Also, it's probably more reasonable for him to protect his own servant that someone else servant. In fact, he doesn't even really deal with Archer all that much. He's usually in spirit form or whatever it's called. He definitely comes across a whole lot less like a real person than Saber (regardless of gender). Overall, it's not surprising that he wouldn't get the whole protection treatment.

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His desire to protect Saber is completely irrational and dangerous. She (and all the other servants) is inhumanly strong and don't really die anyway, as they can be brought back to participate in future iterations of the war. Yet Shiro insists on leaping in to physically defend her when he is physically far weaker and has pretty much no abilities of his own. He only survives because the other masters suddenly decide not to kill him.

That makes him an idealistic idiot. Not a sexist.

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Shiro was the lead. He became strong at the end thanks to plot device. Sexist.

So then is it sexist too in every Shonen series ever where thanks to some plot device the male lead eventually becomes stronger than other more initially capable characters (at least some of whom are women)? People like it when the lead starts weak but gets stronger. You're mistaken to think this is exclusive to FSN or to read into it too much.

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Rin is a far better mage than Shiro, but she's cold, and thus incapable of success until she becomes friends with Shiro.

I'm really not sure why you'd suggest such a causation. Rin seemed to be doing just fine before she teams up with Shiro. In any case though, clearly Shiro is in just the same situation. In fact, Rin plays a far bigger role in Shiro's success (in even the most basic sense. ie. not getting dead very quickly) than he does in hers. They both work together to stay alive and accomplish their goals but if anyone needed the other it was Shiro.

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He didn't let Rin fight on her own, Rin didn't do actual fighting (a little magic, but usually from safe distances).

Yeah but Rin is a master. She's clearly not supposed to go in there and slug it out with Berserker hand to hand. She's supposed to send her servant and perhaps support him with magic. All of this she does quite effectively. Just because Shiro is an idiot who doesn't get this concept doesn't mean she should do the same. As you yourself said, it's not smart.

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Despite being the more capable mage, she ends up being mere support for Shiro because he's some sort of chosen one type.

Well as I said before, the 'chosen one' plot device is hardly specific to FSN. Plus, I'd say she plays more than a support role for the first part of the series. They all seemed to be working pretty equally together until spoiler[Archer got killed. Yeah, that kind of did push her into a support role. But what do you expect? As I mentioned before, that's kind of how the Holy Grail war works. You fight using your servant. Once they're gone you're more or less out or at best in a support role.]

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Saber is the worst, as she appears strong and confident at first, but Shiro's repeated insistence on him protecting her despite there being no evidence that she needs protecting wears her down, and we eventually discover that she only ever really wanted a big strong man to protect her so she could act like a proper woman.

I think you're letting your preconception that this series is 'sexist' lead you to assume the worst. I really wouldn't interpret it as such. Indeed, she is strong and determined initially. But because of her past she is also perpetually on guard to a fault. Right from the start of the series she treats everything like a war. Just because she eventually comes to let others in and rely on them a bit doesn't mean she's become weak. It means she's become human. It's actually positive development in my view.

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Illya has no friends, and despite Berserker's brute force, can't follow through with victory, and really only wants Shiro to be her big brother.

Yeah but Illya is like ten. Can't we cut her just a bit of slack here? All of this seems fairly reasonable for a little kid.

Of course Shiro is an idealistic idiot. I don't know where the sexism theories come from. It was written by Nasu Kinoko ffs.

Also, given that **SPOILER from the VN never mentioned in the anime but people assume is common knowledge and that's why I know it** spoiler[Archer is actually future Shiro, that just complicates the issue to weird degrees of why he doesn't need to protect Archer.]

Well, my respect for the franchise just got even lower (because how stupid is that), but it does explain a few things. spoiler[I mean, Archer would have been tied for the most stupid character alongside Shiro had he gotten more screentime. Any archer - heck, "archer" is his freaking name - who primarily uses swords is an idiot of a pretty high calibre.]

Long story short, don't bash what you don't know.

Feel better after your rant?

Now, it was the franchise that had a guy called/designated as "Archer" using swords, and therefore it is the franchise that suffers, not just the Anime.

The franchise - namely the Visual Novel - spoiler[is what used time travel, which is so outlandish to the setting of the story that it instantly hurts the story's credibility.]

Anyway, can we get back to the confirmed sexism in the show? You know, Fate/Stay on Topic?

chivalry

The methods of training and standards of behavior for knights in the Middle Ages. The code of chivalry emphasized bravery, military skill, generosity in victory, piety, and courtesy to women. (Compare courtly love.)

The theme in Fate/Stay Night you're looking for is called chivalry not sexism.

I cannot agree with that at all. Being courteous to woman means being polite, well-mannered, helpful and perhaps protecting them when they need protecting. Saber did not need Shiro to protect her, and he was not being helpful in demanding that she stop fighting. That is not chivalry, it is plainly him believing that women shouldn't fight. I mean, what about her wishes, her desires, what she wants to do? He completely ignores them. Because she's a girl. Ergo, sexism.

chivalry

The methods of training and standards of behavior for knights in the Middle Ages. The code of chivalry emphasized bravery, military skill, generosity in victory, piety, and courtesy to women. (Compare courtly love.)

The theme in Fate/Stay Night you're looking for is called chivalry not sexism. The two are sometimes related or mistook but the former stems from more nobler intentions than the latter.

So, I don't think Shiro was intentionally sexist.

On the other hand maybe the show is just simply about magical beings in melee combat with cool costumes beating the crap out of each other for a frikin' cup that grants wishes to a Kenji Kawai score instead of being psychoanalyzed for allusions of sexism or chivalry.