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NOTE: This is discussion about why licensors like Bandai Entertainment or Funimation would CHOOSE to release an anime subbed instead of trying to do dub it. This is NOT a sub vs. dub favorite type thread.

Okay, we all know everyone have their own personal tastes. Some prefer dubs while other prefer subbing. But it kinda bothers me (as a person who prefer dubs) that some of the major anime companies are beginning to release some anime in DVDs subbed only.

Case in point, taking Hayate the Combat Butler as an example. I found out that Bandai Entertainment did license this anime, but they release the series subbed instead of trying to dub it (I know there is an English dub by another company, but you might need to fly to Singapore or something like that to see it).

Apparently, I'm not saying its a bad thing, dubbing IS more expensive than subbing the anime (I was told by one of my guildmates while I was playing Guild Wars that the reason why Dokruo-chan was released subbed was due to costs). You'd need to find the voice actors/actresses and pay them millions of dollars to dub an episode, as opposed to finding someone who can translate Japanese to English and try to accurately translate. However, I do think anime licensors might choose to dub the anime if they see that the DVD prices and reception will outweigh the cost of paying the voice actors and actresses (and even then, some DVDs that are dubbed do have an option to watch it in Japanese with subtitles)

I also do admit, I do find some English dubs to be horrible (i.e. Pokemon series, although it makes sense since that series is aired on television), but I do find some Japanese voice acting to be quite good (like Dokuro-chan!, a series what I find to be grossly hilarious, even though the anime was never dubbed in English, the Japanese voice acting is quite good. But I stopped watching the series after the first set of two-episode since having one character getting killed off by an angel in a particular way is just too repetitive to watch, much like killing Kenny in every single episode).

Seeing that the most of the entire world (particularly in the U.S.) is in the recession, I think it is usually more economically efficient to release anime subbed-only. Apparently, I don't mind listening to Japanese VA. In fact, it might me learn Japanese a little bit if I want to learn Japanese myself (if only if they could have an option where you can read the English and Japanese subtitles together with pronunciation guides, but that would be lame for some people). Then of course, I'm not sure if there are instances in anime history where producers do allow American licensors to release the anime in the U.S. but at the same time NOT allow them to dub the anime. And I'm not sure what many Japanese anime fans would usually think about English VA.

There are some questions that I want to know why licensors would release an anime subtitled only. Do you think they would try to release the anime subbed first to find out what buyers think about the anime itself first? Do you think the licensor would choose not to dub the anime mostly they think the anime wouldn't succeed well in the states? Or do you think the current economic recession is hindering opportunities to dub anime? I know in heart that there are some anime that NEVER had a release in the U.S. dubbed OR subbed. Case in point, Doraemon (I watched the Chinese dub when I was young, but I need my mother around to understand what the characters were saying); in fact, I don't there was an official release of the Doraemon series apart from the screening of one of the movies in Washington D.C. by Viz Media subbed according to Wikipedia (and since we're talking Wikipedia, I doubt that).

I'm mostly asking because the one anime that I REALLY want to see it dubbed is To Aru Majutsu no Index (and even so, the Japanese VA of the anime I mentioned is the best IMHO, but I want to see what it's like when dubbed in English) and I'm afraid I may waste x amount of years after watching the entire series fansubbed at Veoh and find out that the anime is released in the U.S. subbed (although being said, others may argue that it would allow to see a more accurate translation).

On a side note, I don't think Lucky Star or Melancholy of Haruhi Suzimiya was released dubbed in the U.S. was due to fansubs (and when it comes to anime subs, I always assume that they are done by fans unless stated otherwise, so translations are usually inaccurate).

[EDIT: Slightly modified the topic title to have a better grammatical flow. -TK]

I think anime fandom is part of the problem.

On the one hand, a lot of anime fans bitch about dubs to begin with, and say that they won't spend extra money on a disc just because it has a dub, and what's more, expect their anime to come out right away, so the company hurries a sub-only release.

On the other hand, other fans say, "Well, why should I bother buying the DVDs if it doesn't even have a dub? I can just download a fansub, if that's the case!"

And the companies fret because the economy is in the dumps, and sub-only sets are more economical, but then in the long run might not be, because they might lose customers who want dubs but won't get them.

I, for one, support having sub-only sets, but only at first, like with the Gurren Lagann release. Then there would be a bilingual set available sometime later for those who want a dub, or both. If there was some way to instantly download (after paying) for one version of a show onto a DVD and then making another payment for the other version later, that would be ideal.

However, like I said, the economy has gone bad, and so the licensors try to figure out which titles are the niche ones that only the most hardcore, Japanese-version-only-watching crowd and sell them sub-only sets and which has a more broad base and requires a dub.

It's a confusing mess.

Personally, I'll usually pay for a bilingual release, even if I don't care for the dub, because it supports the company, the studio who made the anime (in a way), and paves the way for better dubs I may like down the road. But that's me, and I have bought a few sub-only releases in the past, too.

On one hand, I think there is a good solution to this problem that would satisfy both dub and sub tastes.

One way is to sub the anime in DVD first, and sell it online/anime conventions, but NOT in major retail stores like Best Buy (as people would most likely assume the anime will be available in both English and Japanese if they buy anime DVDs in Best Buy). If the sub-only anime sales are great and have positive reception from the North American viewers, then they can go ahead and try and dub the anime and distribute the anime dubbed (with the Japanese VA and english sub as options) either in TV or in DVDs at major retail stores (usually very controversial contents like nudity, blood, gore, homosexuality, etc. type would most likely be distributed in DVD rather than in TV, but in the case with To Aru Majutsu no Index!, I think it is very suitable to air in Disnsey XD). If not, they could go ahead and forget the idea of dubbing the anime.

Now in the issue of knowing what English voice actors/actresses should voice who in an anime, they could at least do a poll to get the opinions from the viewers. However, there are chances that the top option may not be available either because the voice actor/actress is unable to help with the dubbing due to a certain reason, or the licensor may not be able to pay the voice actor/actress.

I'm not a expert in business, but I think it is really hard to satisfy everyone's tastes, but ignoring viewers opinions may tick them off. I mean, look at 4Kids did to the Pokemon series, they crapified it (well at least they aren't dubbing the series anymore now).

[EDIT: If you're replying to the user that'll be right above you, there's absolutely no need to quote that person. Remember: space and prettiness. -TK]

Well, this is one of those threads where the answer to the question is already contained in the OP. When an R1 distributor decides to release a title subbed instead of dubbed, there is only one reason for it: they believe they will lose money if they don't. Period. The discussion begins and ends there.

The distribs aren't trying to be mean; they're not pandering to the folks who only watch subs; and they're certainly not trying to avoid making money. They are the ones that have the hard sales figures at their fingertips. They - better than posters on a message board - have an idea whether the additional cost of a dub stands a chance of paying off.

With DVD sales dropping, I think we can expect to see more sub only releases in the future (except for Funimation - they simply don't license any title that they don't think can make money with a dub).

Many people, me included, sit inside this hobby or industry without realizing its true relative size. The entire R1 anime DVD industry revenues are somewhere between $300 to $350 million, and may be lower this year. That's one week of revenue for a Fortune 100 company, or one average summer Hollywood blockbuster including DVD and international sales. What that means is a low margin of error for any company producing R1 DVDs.

The break-even sales for producing an anime DVD, if I recall correctly, was around 2,500 or 3,000 copies for subbed-only, based on singles sales, and around 10,000 for dubbed. I just don't have time to find the numbers again. The wide difference in numbers isn't just paying voice actors. There's a whole set of production steps beginning with writing (localization and matching of lip-flaps is more effort than simple text translation) and carrying through all aspects of sound production and mixing (foley, editing/timing, music possibly, etc), and then DVD authoring. There's the opportunity cost in the delay between the show being aired in Japan, released on DVD in Japan, and then being dubbed and released on DVD in the U.S., but they've dealt with that for years. Still, the longer it takes to release a DVD, the more likely that market interest in that title will wain, and releasing a subbed DVD is much quicker. There's also no real reliable way to predict how well a title will do, considering the acknowledged failure in financial terms of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. It may have turned a profit, but was no where near as successful as could be expected from its popularity ratings. In other words, if you couldn't count on that title being a hit, then you can't count on anything.

We are unlikely to see singles again except in very rare cases of special editions, so let's take a wild estimate and say the revenue from anime per episode is probably about a third what it used to be. But the cost of dubbing can't be cut by 2/3's and maintain any quality. Producing lousy dubs routinely would eventually undermine the support from the dub-only crowd that could justify dubs in the first place. So really, now you have to sell three times as many "episodes" to break even. In singles days, DVDs cost the consumer $20-30 depending on discounts. That's $5-7 per episode. So a 13-episode "half-season" set would have to sell for $65-90 to break even at the old production cost structure, and at that price still sell over 10,000 copies. If you can show me any of those sets selling well at those prices, I'll be surprised. Most people consider a half season to be worth $39.99 at best, and most would expect to pay less. So there's your difference in per episode. Now you really need to project 20,000 sales of those sets to break even.

But many titles don't sell that many. Lots of anecdotal information points to some titles selling less than 2,000 or 3,000 copies. Remember how small this market actually is, and that by far the majority of revenue comes from DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, etc. So those types of numbers for a show like True Tears, for instance, aren't surprising.

Another change is TV broadcasting--the relatively new lack of it. While a lot of focus goes on the Internet due to the fansub debate, the primary way that broad markets for the top-selling franchises were created was via TV. Again, the Pokemon, DBZ, Naruto, etc., tier of titles. Even though a show gets a lot of discussion or apparently popularity from Internet exposure, it doesn't translate to sales of DVDs. Streaming may take the place of TV, and more successfully as the digital generations who grew up with streaming mature, but streaming hasn't been proven to drive DVD sales yet.

That reality of the marketplace makes it very risky to produce a dub at all. I suspect that Funi's policy of only producing dubbed shows is enabled by their sheer buying power. By that I mean they are probably getting much better licensing terms than before, being the only game in town, and having a cash cow in DBZ allows them to take more risks. I consider this an experiment on their part, and it remains to be seen if it works.

Hopefully, when and if a sub-only title sells enough units. they can back to dubbing. Companies need to stay in business, and by cutting back on the more expensive practices, they can. However, one wonders how long they can thrive on sub-only DVDs versus bilingual.

pparker:

I think you've made a few valid points, it is quite true that subbing an anime is quicker than dubbing an anime and the goal to get the anime released as quickly as possible to get the audience interested. And since we have the internet, there are usually little purposes of buying the DVD if you can simply watch the anime online. While the internet could be a hindrance for dubbing an anime, it could also be an opportunity. This is because when comparing to airing anime in TV, airing anime in the Internet, you can watch it anytime and anywhere. For instance, I happen to watch the entire Elfen Lied series dubbed at Myspace Videos during the summer when I don't have university classes and currently watching To Aru Majutsu no Index fansubbed at Veoh (I usually don't watch anime at Youtube, as Youtube is getting more aggressive of anime being streamed dubbed or subbed). Then of course, fansubs are usually not very accurate in translation when compared to official ones (if I ever find those). In fact, I do believe Funimation and Bandai Entertainment offer rotational free anime you can watch in their official websites or at video hosting sites like Youtube under their official name. Talk about the power of the internet.

Of course, when it comes to fansub vs. fandub, I personally prefer fansubs, as fandub are usually done by amateurs who have little to no experience in voice acting which may end up sounding horrible.

[EDIT: Next time just make reference to a user by name instead of quoting their really long posts. It takes up less space and looks prettier. -TK]

Ctimene's Lover wrote:

Now dub haters are getting what wanted after all these years.

I take it you didn't actually read the OP, especially the remark about this isn't a sub v. dub debate?

Regardless, the argument is moot because sub supporters have the option. Dub supporters, without a dub, have none.

Before I begin, I want to state I'm separating out the Japanese market from the US market. Since I'm not familiar with Bandai's setup, I'll also make the assumption they're the US distributor, not the Japanese company. Corrections to this assumption are welcome.

Now, onto the topic at hand. I'm sure most of you know my position regarding local distributors, so I won't repeat it here. But I want to point out something which seems to get dismissed when topics like this arise.

ANN's news features many articles, and many archived are still accessible. It strikes me curious that news reporting revenues is debated, then quickly dismissed while posters write the exact opposite to the news.

An example of this is DVD sales. I'm absolutely stunned when posters think this is "supporting" the industry. It's not. It's supporting the local distributor. Ignoring licensing issues, all costs related to purchases are recouping investments.

The anime is long paid for, folks, before it hits our shores. People don't work for free, and the studios are working on their next title as we view their latest. Doesn't matter if this is a delayed release or simulcast airing.

Thus, one can conclude all DVD sales will be paid to those who invested in the hiring of the studio.

Japan's market is all on its own. ANN recently had an interview with a producer that pretty much stated an anime's success will be deemed on which timeslot it's given so ad revenues are generated.

The other aspect now affects us, and it's local distributors paying the licensing fees for the rights to distribute locally. Given this, there were two significant announcements delivered to anime fans:
-ADV is dead. Broken up into separate corporate entities, it's expected they'll need time to recoup revenues since they've been broken apart. Time will tell if these companies become successful enough to return to dubbing. In the meantime, don't expect any new licenses to be dubbed.

-FUNimation isn't going down this road. Thus, any new licenses are going to be dubbed. Folks who love dub probably cheered at this news.

As for Bandai, I've always stated this company remains an enigma to me. It's so secretive, everything I say is based on speculation. Why this company is releasing sub-only titles escapes me. I can only assume that by stating "Bandai", we're talking local distributor. But your guess at this can be no worse than any I'd give. For that, I'll ignore them completely.

While I do understand there are other distributors, we can't ignore the fact they're also smaller than the others. Nozomi, as an example, has an extremely small licensed library, and it's expected new releases won't be dubbed. There simply isn't the capital for it.

As Blood- stated, it is about money, or rather the lack of it. Fan subs have nothing to do with this because it's impossible to assume these viewers will ever buy. The industry must now focus on hard facts, and thanks to companies like NPD, they know where they stand through sales data.

When sales begin to drop, changes must be made. It's Business 101. FUNimation may have a good cash reserve to take chances on new releases in dub format, but it's not going to be surprising this reserve will eventually dry up, especially while looking for the next "tent pole" title.

As a fan who prefers dub, my personal opinion about the future of dub is bleak. It's going to end and it's just a matter of time. Unless something turns and brings in more revenue, it's what I see as fact.

For those who insist on dub, this is problematic. Most of these people won't buy a series without it, and that translates to even more lost revenue. It's a losing battle for the local distributor in its current situation, especially if dub DVD sales are dropping.

I hope the failure of dub doesn't happen, but everything I see (as limited as it is) is showing me no proof otherwise. Telling people to buy DVDs only band-aids the true problem, because cuts heal, and eventually the band-aid is removed.

What happens from there is anybody's guess and I wish we could do more. But without options, what can any of us do to help?

When the industry answers the question, this issue goes away.

I agree with you here PetrifiedJello, the fate of anime dub appears to be sour and going down the hill, but I believe is mostly due to the fact that the world is under an economic recession. Once the economy recovers, however, I think anime dubbing may make a comeback.

In regards to dubbing, I find having good dub is more important than trying to get the anime dubbed in a short period of time. Like I said, the reason dubs are usually more expensive is because it takes a lot of time and effort. But nowadays, many fans have high demands on wanting to watch a specific anime ASAP after the Japanese release. If you aren't gonna get the dub job done in in like 3-5 months after announcing that you acquire the license, you might as well better off subbing the anime instead. I rather watch Japanese VA with English sub than to hear an English dub where the VAs don't put much effort and time into it and end up being crap at the end. As such, dubs usually get a bad name for anime fans mostly because the licensors don't place enough effort in the VA.

Another mistake that anime companies usually make is trying to get well-known and highly experienced anime voice actors/actresses to do the job. As mentioned in Ctimene's Lover's thread about top-named voice actors/actresses about Code Geass's popularity, many people have posted that having well-known voice actors in the anime didn't really contribute much to the popularity of the anime. Even I admit saying that even though having well-known voice actors might the increase the chances of having an anime popular, its not much of necessity to become popular and doesn't really contribute alot for an anime to be popular. Heck, in fact, you might as well be better trying to find some newbie to voice a role of a character for a smaller price than to try to find experienced VAs like Yuri Lowenthal or James Arnold Taylor (even though the later VA roles are mostly limited to video games and western animation and his voice acting roles in anime is very small apart from Animatrix). For instance, I mostly find Grant George's (big name here) voice acting on Keiichi on Higurashi no Naku Koro ni to be bad mostly because I felt he didn't put enough effort into the character. On the other hand, in regards to Disney dubs of many of Hayao Miyazaki's films, I find the voice acting to be the best, yet I'm surprised that many of the English voice actors/actresses of the Miyazaki's films aren't mostly dedicated to voice acting in anime but rather either live-action acting, being a comedian, or both (even I was surprised when Tina Fey, the comedian and former cast member of Saturday Night Live, have a role in Miyazaki's latest film, Ponyo). Then again, those are mostly my opinions.

It's all about costs.

Sad to say Bandai is cutting down on dubs and is not getting any new titles any time soon. (Still waiting on Haruhi season 2 :/ )

Plus with every one wanting to save money spending $40 on a sub only release isn't worth it most of the time. When there are people who don't like reading there anime.

About the Hayate dub, Bandai said a while ago they where going to dub it but the dub was canceled mid way though marketing due to the fact they couldn't figure out if the dub would break even. So thats why Hayate fans have to deal with the bad British voiced dub. (I haven't heard the dub over my self but I know a few who have and they say it's bad) if they can find a copy of it.

Funimation still dubs there titles but there all going to get money because there titles that are 1. Getting some form of a re-release (When they Cry, Pani Poni, a lot of old ADV titles) 2. Are fan fav titles (Soul Eater, DBZ, Ouran, Fruits basket, One Piece) that will sell, 3. There prices and extras are what a lot of people like. There re-release mark down VC box sets sell for $20-$35 a 26 episode set.

Unlike Bandai who's still trying to get sales on Gundam 00 and Code Geass's dubs. While only putting out other shows in a sub only release. Even Lucky Star's OVA didn't get dubbed and thats a well known title that sells.

Even if a anime sells well in a sub form, most of the time it's just going to stay sub only in less a big profit can be made for a re-release with a dub.

Regarding Funimation's dubbing; remember that they have their own in-house studio and a local talent-pool to pull from, therefore dubbing is MUCH less expensive for them. Companies like Bandai have to rent out independent studios like Bang Zoom or Ocean Group which costs a lot more. I forget what the figures are for renting out one of those studios, but I remember it being pretty staggering. ADV also has/had their own in-house studio, but they expanded their business too far in the wrong directions so the economic slump came down hard on them; plus, there was the whole Sojitz fiasco that had already hurt them pretty bad...

I don't think dubbing is going to 'end,' but its definitely going to be less, and may even become less still before we see it pick up.

I certainly understand the financials of it all but it still sucks... Especially in the case of GaoGaiGar where they actually dubbed the first half of the show and did it QUITE well too! But it's no Bleach (heaven forbid kids should ever think transforming robots are cool) or Naruto so it didn't sell well enough and ... The second half is sub only. I broke down and bought the second box because I didn't really have a choice but... You know things are bad when they just abandon a high quality dub like that.... Then again, as much as I enjoy my dubs, you get into a situation where you either have it subbed or don't have it at all. Like Super Robot Wars. Sub only, online only. It's not the most ideal situation for the series, but it's better than nothing, I guess... :\ I just hope it doesn't get so bad that EVERYTHING that isn't in Shounen Jump or Moe has to be sub only... Anime hyper

I dislike the fact that so many companies are going into sub only. I like to Buy the series after i've seen some of it in fansub. Bandai is killing them selves releasing there series overpriced and sub only , People are gonna look at it and think why the heck would i pay such a obscene amount of my money when i'm gonna have to read everything. I will buy Clannad and resurrection princess in sub cause i liked those series.. Also the Americans are loosing out on the Australian releases.. Australia seem not to look into releasing the titles that don't have a english dub.

Keeping in mind that the anime market in Japan accounts for something like 30% of the home video market even in this economic environment, R1 would be wall-to-wall dubs and limited editions if anime in R1 was anywhere even remotely close to those numbers.

The sad truth? It's not. The marquee titles like Naruto, Pokemon, and Bleach are pretty much it as far as actual sales go and even with that, anime in R1 even at the height of the bubble never broke into the double digits of market share. Combined with the "free is better" mindset we're lucky to be even getting anime in any form at this point.

As much as I hate to say it, the dubbing industry is going to down the crapper unless if this recession ends soon. Many anime companies like A.D. Vision just cease to exist. And then, there are western cartoons trying to compete with the Japanese anime market, thus further hindering opportunities for dubbing Japanese anime. Even so, some western cartoonists have picked up Japanese anime-style, such as an adult satirical animesque series the Boondocks (which across from most non-Japanese anime, I find this series to be the best, which surprisingly, the guy who made the comic-strip and the said TV series is a fan of many anime works). Probably the only two anime companies I can count on now to pick up To Aru Majutsu no Index! are either Disney or Funimation (since Bandai Entertainment appears to be releasing anime subbed only nowadays). Unless if To Aru Majutsu no Index becomes award-winning (anime, light novel, or , it might increase its chances. But even then, having something "award-winning" won't get you a dub (such as Rental Magica, which it will be released subbed at late November this year). I always go with this rule, if an anime is released subbed in the U.S., then there will never be an English dub available in the future for the said anime (unless if some miracle happens).

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