Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyopop Rising Stars
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Haru to Ashura
 Posts: 617 Location: Termina |
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 If we just got rid of this silly terms and called them all comics, then you all wouldn't be having this silly argument.
As for the Rising Starts, the problem with the Tokyopop judges is that it's obvious that they're biased to their own personal favorite genres, as opposed to overall quality. I don't know who they are, mind you (And I wonder why Tokyopop never mentions who they are? I don't think they want us finding out that it's just their employees judging, and not people of actual artisitc merit.) but it's become apparent in the trends of their judging in the last five competitions. Half of the judges seem to ignore art and only look at the story. That is obviously a bad practice, so we see the semi-deep manga with distorted figures ugly enough to belong in an Elisa Thronsberry episode. While the story is important, the art is equal. If you're only looking at the writing, then read a novel. The second half of the judges let their personal favorites, as I mentioned earlier, blind their judgement. That's why we have the titles with deccent art but ultra-cliche adventure plots, because the judges like to read stuff like that. But then in the midst of it all, a few actually deccent entries do stand out. This year's entries seem overall a bit better than last year. The only thing I like about the RSOM contest is that they try to look for orginality. Albiet some cliche crap somehow makes it through that barrier, the stuff they choose sometimes stands out from the rest of the stuff you see floating around deviantART and the net. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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A while back, I had this same discussion with Littlegreenwolf and a few other people over in the manga forum.
Littlegreenwolf hapens to have a very good understanding of the various characteristics that frequently occur in manga. One of the most important that she pointed out, that no one has yet brought up here, was the use of cinematography-derived panels. -t |
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Necros Antiquor
 Posts: 571 Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way |
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No, I haven't, and I admit he has always refers to his "comic," not his "manga," but then again, it's right there at the top of the page: "Online Webcomic/Manga Doujinshi." I understand how you have to have some cut-off point, a firmly established line to remove the confusion a gray area would cause. At the same time, I also admit that my definition is merely my opinion, my way of speaking and refering to things. It's not completely correct, but unless everyone wants to get technical about it, there is somewhat of a gray area (or at least enough of a gray area to create debates like this). I find it very funny that the Chronicles of Riddick people asked you to cover their "anime." 
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midori kou
Posts: 469 |
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I don't know why people don't see how sophicated some Marvel or DC storylines are. If you look beyond the superhero crime fighter, there IS some sort of conflict in the human psyche in most of their series. It's like beyond Sailor Moon and your "monster-of-the-day" type of story, there is some sort of character development. For instance, Spiderman (in almost every version) is at some sort of conflict with his best friend, Harry who wants to avenge his father and has emotional instability with Mary Jane. I don't know about you, but it does have some of the common structures of some Shakespearan or Greek plays. Almost every character in American comics has some sort of tragic life style. From Bruce Wayne losing both his parents to the rise of The Punisher after the death of his love ones, these characters don't live happy lives. Same goes for some characters in every other comics series published in the whole entire world. If we only want to catagorize every single comic book out there by what is called in that country, then we are neglecting anything not from that country any good. This is being done with American comics quite often. I may have state some poor comparisons. I understand that. I'm not the best person debating, structuring my argument or let alone have the best English in the world. But I do know that in English, we do have the term, "comics" and in the art world, comic books (Whether from here in America, Europe or Asia) all have the same things in common: panels, word balloons, color/black & white tones, typographic design. Going by this definition, all types of comics would fit in it and this is the one I have accepted in my life. |
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Haru to Ashura
Posts: 617 Location: Termina |
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On another note alongside midori kou's post, one thing I think American comics acheive much better than Japanese are comics dealing with political expression. American comics run all over the political specturm, whereas the Japanese generally seem to afraid to touch that.
Ah, good point. |
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Izlude
Posts: 323 Location: Wherever The Wind Takes Me |
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Oh dont get me wrong, Marvel and DC do some highly sophisicated stuff, but I'm tired of superheroes really, tired of that dude in spandex that saves the day, or that guy with awesome technology and detective skills backing him up. How about something following the story of a hardass wandering warrior type guy with no compassion at all as he slays a mountain of demons and looks awesome doing it, or a story that is really about nothing, but its damn funny to read and is strangely full of hot chicks! 
There is alot of potential outside of the ol' good vs. evil and superhero stuff, not that that stuff is bad, hell, it works very well, and it sells, but in todays comic book market, where japanese comics are stocking up the shelves, are ol friends Super Man and Spider-Men are getting smushed in...there needs to be a new savior of American comics that can stand next to a japanese manga on equal grounds. Tokyopop may just be our savior...or our hell, who knows, but, if they can bring up some inspiration in the crowd of wannabe comic/manga artists out there, let'em go for it. Who knows, maybe they'll work for DC and Marvel one day and really hit the jackpot with something new. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Lets get back to basic. Comic books are basically "picture" book. Books with picture are call comic book/Graphic Novel.
The End |
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mufurc
 Posts: 612 |
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...which is quite strange as I don't really see how MT is a doujinshi (of all things). Granted, it's been a very long time since I last read MT, and for all I know it might contain fan-stories about anime/manga now, but as I remember, it was an original (web)comic drawn in vaguely manga-influenced style, and as such, it doesn't qualify as "doujinshi." A doujinshi is a collection of "fan-manga"/fanfic drawn and written by fans and sold online or at cons. I realize that the meaning of some specific Japanese terms, such as this, sometimes changes as they make their way from Japan to the West, and that people like to generalize, but sometimes it'd be nice if they didn't use some terms incorrectly. By the way, as I said, it's been a long time since I read MT, but what I read of it didn't feel similar to manga at all; neither in its art, nor in its storyline. (I looked at the featured panel on the site now, and it still doesn't remind me of manga at all. But that might just be me.) I'm not saying that MT is bad or anything, I just can't really see it as a "manga." It's a manga-influenced comic. |
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hkrok76
 Posts: 118 |
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Many of the posts here is showing what the people who say that manga is the term for comics from japan are angry about. The word is getting diluted. Calling yourself an otaku outside of Japan can have a different connotation as calling yourself an otaku in Japan. We bastardize foreigns words all the time. It's our duty as we find needs for terms. If we didn't do this, the english language wouldn't be the richest language in the world. We're gluttons. Even our language is gluttonous. You don't like it, don't speak english.
By calling anything with influence from it(some even call comics that are just in black and white) manga, we're destroying the needed term. We needed the term "manga" because we had something coming here that was very much different from what we were used to. The Japanese approach to comic making has distinct differences. It definitely is not a "style." It's imbedded in who they are. Read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud. He gives some really interesting insights into Japanese comics. Although it isn't the bulk of the comic, the entire thing is worth reading if you consider yourself a fan of the medium. There's a big enough following in the US for us to stop saying Japanese comics, or Japanese graphic novels, or Japanese animation, or even Japanimation. We grabbed onto two very worthy and likely words, taken from the country we refer to, and used those. Manga and Anime are labels for products from Japan, which for the most part, were originally made for Japan. You calling your work manga does not mean that it is. The industry(trying to sell) calling stuff manga does not mean it is. I believe Tokyopop to be one of the worst offenders of the misuse of a fan-made term. Yet, I understand that they have to sell books. Money pre-empts fandom. ADV is guilty of this constantly. They call themselves fans, but do very unfanlike things. Tokyopop as well. They have suits and backers that they have to contend with, so I understand. But I will not go quietly by allowing them to destroy terms made by fans, for fans. Manga = comics from Japan, Manhwa = comics from Korea, and for us people in the great western hemisphere, comics = damn right the original term means comics from here. We add in the "style" portion to these, because that's what it's referring to. It's not referring to the actual works, but the style of the works. Thus, a comic made in the US(or Canada) drawn in the style of most manga, does not mean it's a manga, it means it is drawn in the style....manga-style. If you don't like amerimanga, use this term, pseudo-manga? How's that? Actually, my friend came up with the best term I have heard for it, Manga-inspired-graphic novels. Which is shortened to MIG. If you're a fighter jet fan, that might tickle your fancy, it does mine ^^ Semantics is the essence of our language. If we don't argue it, it'll wind up us calling an apple an orange, let me tell you, they are not the same. ...=) Our problem arises from the fact that the term didn't become heavily used until a few years ago. If we don't fight to keep its meaning then it'll just become another term that the fans lost to the industry. It's happened before, and it'll happen again, labels being misused to sell a product, thus the general public uses the misused term in the misused manner. If the fans don't fight to keep the meaning clear, then who is left to fight for it? It doesn't matter? Then nothing matters, if not what you feel is worth fighting for(or posting in forums for =P). Tempest has been the most eloquent in trying to make clear the correct usage of the term "manga" and I commend him for it. Ofcourse, he does pretty much run this site.... I completely agree with him, I am not saying that any set of comics(whether from the US, or from Canada, France, or Japan) is superior or inferior to any others. So don't get me wrong there. There are fine, fine, comics from all over the world, most of which are overlooked. Japan just got lucky, and thank god too ^^
There are doujinshi circles that make doujinshi with original characters. Granted, these might not actually be called doujinshi in Japan...here's the definition from Jim Breen: ??? ??????? (n) (1) magazine published by fans; fanzine; (2) publication aimed at a particular hobby group; (3) publication sold directly, and not via commercial publishers So...I don't think that definition says anything about actually using pre-existing characters. It just means, if you're a fan, and you're not professionally published, you're making doujinshi. In other words, amateur comics. Another thing...I do believe doujinshi should be a term that surpasses any national or regional boundaries. If you live in the US, you can make doujinshi. Why? It's amateur, fan made comics. What Rising Stars of Manga is, is essentially a compilation doujinshi. It's a simple Japanese word we can use to denote a fanmade-amateur-publication-done-in-the-style-of-manga. Now what that brings me to, is this, Tokyopop using the word "manga" to sell their publication of a fanmade-amateur-publication-done-in-the-style-of-manga, might cause confusion in people, and get people thinking that manga itself are fanmade-amateur-publications-done-in-the-style-of-manga...Rising Stars of Manga isn't a MIG, it definitely isn't manga, it's for all intents and purposes, a doujinshi compiled from artists outside of Japan. With any amateur work, it won't be the best things out there, so I judge it with that in mind...It is a doujin. I just with they wouldn't call them manga or manga-artists. They are comics and comic artists. If you want to get a bit more specific, they're MIGs(doujinshi) and comic artists. Here's a definition of Manga... 1. Manga n. Can be used as plural or singular. 1. A Japanese word that means comic or cartoon. 2. Outside of Japan it is used as a term for Japanese comics. Comics that were originally published in Japan, for Japanese audiences. The topics and styles in Manga are numerous. With stories for the very young, to stories for the very old. There can be as many different styles as there are artists. Manga is not a style from Japan, because there are Japanese artists that do break the typical manga style, yet they are still drawing Manga. Japanese Manga is redundant unless you are speaking Japanese. Manga can not be made in the United States, as that would be misusing the term. There can be comics made outside of Japan that has heavy influence from Manga, but they would be comics, not Manga. Manga-style, Manga-influenced, and Pseudo-manga can be used to describe such works made outside of Japan. That manga was fun to read, and the art was awesome. Manga sucks because it's black and white. Them Japanese sure like to draw thems manga with us white folks in em, don't they? It's 3am and I have class in five hours, but I can't stop reading this manga. (courtesy of urbandictionary.com...actually this is my definition that I posted there....) Well, there's my bit, it's wordy and lengthy. Although it's too late since this is the bottom of it...I suggest just reading what Tempest has written...... Last edited by hkrok76 on Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:22 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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CFizzLe
Posts: 10 |
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I have a feeling that a Japanese kid would be laughing at us right now at what you guys are debating.
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hkrok76
Posts: 118 |
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and they should, many laugh at engrish all the time.
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Ztarr
 Posts: 44 Location: Canada |
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you guys are rediculous!
there is an obvious distinct genre of comic out there that deserves to be recongnized for what it is; this genre is Manga and you don't have to be japanese to create it.
I agree totally. The term manga is needed, but we have to be careful what we call manga; this doesn't mean that manga is only stuff from Japan; this doesn't mean that it's just a comic printed in b&w. There is a lot to making manga that is different than other comics that people don't realize. I found that the Rising Star entrants didn't have a clear understanding of the differences; sure they were b&w and had a drawing style simular to manga, but there is so much more to it than that.
Any good artist knows that you can't start tweeking with proportion unless you already have an understanding of real proportions. There is a difference between unproportional characters and character with bad proportion.
You know what's funny? The 'grandfather' of anime/manga himself was influenced by Walt Disney's early cartoons of Mickey Mouse. This is why most manga characters tend to have oversized, sparkly, eyes; Mickey Mouse had huge sparkly eyes. ugh you don't have to be from japan to make manga, but just 'cause you make comics in b&w with lots of speedlines doesn't mean you're making manga either. |
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mufurc
Posts: 612 |
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Well, as far as I know, manga with original characters are not called doujinshi. As this page also says, doujinshi are basically self-published amateur comics/fanfics/anthologies based on manga, novels, and the like; and I've never heard or seen the word used in any other sense. (But then, I'm not actually involved in the doujinshi scene, so I'm no authority on the topic. *shrug*)
I agree with this, though I still say it's only "doujinshi" if it's actually sold. That's why a four-page "fanmanga" doesn't qualify as one. It's just comics, and as I see, even the Japanese call it simply "comics" or "manga." |
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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No...no, manga is more a medium, or a regional classification. Contained within are genres (romance, comedy, action, etc.), as told through a certain region's style of comic art. If all manga covered a similar sort of subject matter, then it'd be a genre, but just like North American comic art, "manga" is such a broad entity encompassing all genres of a region's comic art, that to call manga itself a "genre" is erroneous.
So where is your line then? If we have to draw the line, how does your work differ from the likes of, say, Archie Comics' latest efforts? Personally, I'd say keeping "manga" a strictly regional classification while allowing for artists beyond Japan's borders to produce work inspired by that region to be clear-cut, straightforward, and easy to understand, rather than getting nitpicky by going "well...my work is somehow different and therefore 'manga' means anything within these suddenly overly-complex and far-too-vague criteria."
Care to elaborate? We've heard all of this plenty of times before, but it's almost always just been an empty bluff; could you please prove an exception to the masses and give us a bit more insight into this statement?
Yes, he was inspired by American comic art, which he then incorporated into his own work instead of saying "I'm now doing American comics and that's that." This is what people like Tempest probably want to see North American artists drawing from manga do; admit that their work is inspired by Japanese comic art without bluntly and stubbornly declaring "look at me, I'm doing Japanese manga now, so bah."
Again, what brilliant, undefined wisdom sets you apart from the thousands of other budding "gaijin manga" artists out there? Sorry for the rough treatment, but the vast majority of the people you're dumping on for "just doing black-and-white comics with speed lines and googly-eyes" tend to defend their work with the exact same arguments you're coming up with almost to the letter. They too claim that they're somehow privvy to some amasing knowledge as to "how real manga is done," and just like you, they bash everyone else doing "gaijin manga" for being posers. So again, what forbidden tome of information revealed to only a select few sets your own work apart from these Rising Stars contestants, Archie Comics' "manga," or stuff like the Riddick sidestories? I think it's also worth noting once again (somewhat detached from what Ztarr is saying, but still very much relevant, I think) that manga are in no way, shape or form superior or inferior to other nations' comic art styles. Whether it be openly or subconsciously, I've noticed that a lot of so-called "gaijin manga" artists still retain this deep-seated delusion of grandeur that manga are somehow "more sophisticated" and that admitting that they're actually a part of their own country's comic scene is some sort of mark of shame. They have to convince others and themselves that what they're doing is somehow "better" than that of their own local contemporaries, and so they push the "well...I'm doing manga, ooooh different" label a lot more than is really necessary. Drawing inspiration from Japanese comic art techniques? Fine. Fine & dandy. But claiming your work is actually Japanese because "Japan = sophistication" is getting old. Also, I have a hard time buying the whole "deeper, more sophisticated stories are a part of manga's style" claim. It inevitably comes up every time manga's compared to other comic art styles, and it's just a load of bunk. The quality of storytelling is purely a reflection on the individual artist, and is only barely determined by how they put the ideas on paper. The trend in Japanese manga, as part of a cultural difference (difference mind you, not "inherent Japanese trait of cultural superiority" as I again find only too many North American manga fans either willingly or involuntarily clinging to), to branch out more openly into such mundane genres as "the day-to-day life of a salaryman" or "how my day at school went," does not actually make it better. Plenty of manga have spotty, disjointed plots with paper-thin characters, while the oft-dismissed North American comics have stories that'll quite literally knock you on your ass because they're so well crafted. And of course, there are also plenty of instances where the opposite is also true, but then I'm sure you all already knew that. Heh, just covering all the bases here. Don't mind me... |
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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This argument is just stupid. Manga is the word that Japanese use to refer to graphic fiction, which is why Kodansha called their publication featuring non-Japanese artists the World Manga Project (or something like that). There is no one "manga style"; like tempest said, many artists use techniques very diffrent from what some people percieve as the "manga style". If your an artist in America and you want to call what you do manga, fine. It doesn't mean it is though.
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