Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyopop Rising Stars
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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It doesn't. Japanese comics and manga are perfectly synonymous and it makes no difference which term someone uses. But if "manga" means "Japanese comics" and "Japanese comics" obviously doesn't mean "Comics from America" then "Manga" !=can't be used to describe "Comics from America" even if the "Comics from America" look like manga (amerimanga for example). [ if A = B, and B != C; then A != C] This was the point Bamboo was complaining about, that people shouldn't call comics made in America, by a name used for comics made in Japan. BTW, English speaking fans of European comics often prefer to use the French term for comics, "BD" to descibe European comics. |
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Izlude
Posts: 323 Location: Wherever The Wind Takes Me |
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The term manga is so badly flawed, alright, we got Usagi Yojimbo, the creator is Japanese, but he lives in America and speaks english, is Usagi Yojimbo a "manga"?
Who cares, it still kicks ass, whether you call it a comic or a manga 
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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I don't think it's flawed per say...rather, a lot of people are grasping at straws here.
There should be a clear distinction to authentic manga as being exports from Japan exclusively. To make it encompass everything from manga-inspired American works, or Korean manhwa, or comics by American-with-Japanese-ancestry-working-in-America, etc etc., is running the risk of diluting the word to the point that it no longer has practical meaning, and reduced to nothing more than mere marketing lingo. That would be a disservice to all comics involved...Japanese, American, and otherwise. |
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Kagemusha
 Posts: 2783 Location: Boston |
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The whole "what is manga" debate is outdated. Do we in America call French comics "comique" or whatever their called in France? No, we simply call them French comics. Not that I'm against using the term manga, but many people have began to use it as a label for anything that is remotely influenced by Japanese comics.
As for the RSoM contest, I read all the entries, and I wasn't impressed by many of them. The artwork was quite good for the most part, but many of the stories just tried to jam a ton of cliches into the short story format, rather than actually thinking about what kind of story would work in 10 or so pages. A couple of them were impressive though. I particurally liked "Can I sit here?". "Muse" was a twisted little read, and "Mail Order Ninja" was cute. |
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Ztarr
 Posts: 44 Location: Canada |
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jeeeeze
The industry uses the term manga for any 'comic' that is produced using certain styles and techniques from a category that originated in Japan. the term Manga used in this particular sense means that is not neccesarily a 'comic' that is produced in Japan, rather, that it is a 'comic' that differs from typical 'american comics' by following a set of criteria: -the illustrations are executed using a certain style (though mangaka each have their own different style, they all have common elements, and are distinguishable from traditional comic styles) -the execution of the story telling is significantly different from traditional or American comics. It uses more imagery and less words. -the design and layout of the panels and frames are significantly different from American comics. They often follow a faster pace, and leave out a lot of panels that an American comic would include in the layout; manga leaves a lot more up to the reader to visualize. -production specs are also different; manga is produced in black and white, using tone techniques; only certain pages are ever coloured, and even the colouring techniques are much different than American comics. The different print sizes also differ from traditional comics. ........ The point is that whether you agree with it or not, the industry and most people who read manga use the term Manga to discribe a certain category of 'comics', and they don't just mean those that are produced in Japan. My original point was not to debate what manga is, but rather to state that most of the Rising Star entries are missing several key features of what the industry considers Manga to be. But I guess it's called RISING Stars of manga, indicating that they have potential to become professionals. My advice to the entrants would be start drawing still life and human proportions, because almost all of the entrants had very poor knowlege of the human structure. Are these REALLY the best Tokyopop had to pick from? REALLY? bah! I'm not impressed |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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Oh, so you're saying "the industry" has already hijacked the term and it is now merely a marketing gimmick used to promote what the lucrative and impressionable tween market perceives real manga to be? Well, shucks~! 
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Ztarr
Posts: 44 Location: Canada |
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if i'm canadian, and i move to japan, then can i make manga?
or do I have to be Asian to make manga? What if i'm Asian and I live in North America? Is it still manga? Do I have to be born in Japan to make manga, and then I can always make manga no matter what country i'm in? I don't understand the logic. The fact is that there is a genre out there that is distinctly different from American comics that deserves a term to discribe it and there no good reason why it shouldn't be called manga.
duh, ofcourse its a marketing gimmick. BUT WE'RE ALL MISSING THE POINT-> Rising Stars of Manga Entries = very poor America manga-wannabes |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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Those would make you... 1) A Canadian guy drawing Canadian comics, while living in Japan. 2) An Asian guy drawing comics, while living in North America. 3) A Japanese guy, drawing manga, while living abroad. But seriously, simply moving to a country does not mean you automatically become part of that culture...you must completely drown yourself in it to have a true understanding of it, before that new perspective can truely flow through your work. A case may be made only until that happens. Perhaps we are even in agreement on this to some degree, since your beef with the RSoM entries seems to be that they don't capture the essense of manga, except a superficial resemblance to titles already available on the market. (Personally I won't go that far...but I see your criticism as valid.)
Oh, sacrilege...sacrilege! *Shakes fists* I'm not saying there is no obvious distinction between comics inspired by manga, and mainstream comics. But we can easily make the distinction without diluting actual "manga"...let's just call them Ameri-manga. As ANN already does. 
None of the criterias you listed are pre-requisite of being manga...in fact they exclude the majority of Japanese manga, leaving only the most commercial properties. |
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Jadress
 Posts: 809 Location: Seattle. It purdy and nerdy! |
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I think that's a bit harsh  I was actually surprised to see that one of the finalists was someone I met (Amy Mebberson who drew the Popstar one, sat next to her at a comic con.. really cool person). I'm sure most of these artists set out to draw comics because that's what they like to do and had no intention of trying sabotage the "glory of REAL manga" or something. I only got to read a few so far (slow internet!), most have pretty good art and seem so-so in the story department, but I think it's pretty mean to call them all manga-wannabes.
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Ztarr
Posts: 44 Location: Canada |
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i'm canadian
I draw manga I don't draw Amerimanga, I'm not American. When discribing my work, I call it manga. That's what it is. It's the same with Animation The Simpsons = Animation Rurouni Kenshin = Animation but The Simpsons = Cartoon Rurouni Kenshin = Anime I don't see why you people have a problem with this. Seriously, it's simple. It doesn't matter how the word originated, but how it is being used now. |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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They do? I know numerous people in the industry that vehemently hate it when the the word manga is used to refer to comics that aren't Japanese. And in some cases they're fans of these non-manga, but just don't aprove of them being called manga. Just because some people in the industry use the word this way doesn't mean the industry uses it this way.
GI Joe #21, last time I checked, it wasn't manga but I don't think there are a lot of words in it (read: there isn't a single word). Later I'll update this with entire Japanese series that are very wordy, and entire american series that aren't. All the examples you listed are relatively common in most manga, but they are by no means found in all manga. Going by your definitions, there can be Japanese comics that aren't manga... While many manga do contain multiple common characteristics, there are certainly others that don't. What you've essentially done, is said, "Most of Set A" have "feature B" therefore everything with feature B is a part of set A. They teach you that this is false in elementary school (using orverlapping circles). If you want to define a subset of something, you need to come up with a feature that defines it. And nothing you listed or can list, is definitive across all manga. -t |
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Necros Antiquor
 Posts: 571 Location: Funny in a car crash sort of way |
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When I said that manga is anything using the styles and techniques, I gave Megatokyo as an example. In my opinion, if something could come close to surviving an actual serialization in a manga anthology in Japan, it should be considered manga, as long as it's following the general Japanese techniques developed for the medium. Megatokyo would come pretty close to surviving, and it has definate shojo themes not really seen in American comics.
Similarly, in my opinion, if something is manga-style, as opposed to manga, that simply means a more superficial relation to manga, such as when Teen Titans overdoes it with anime expressions or that new Josie and the Pussycats "manga." Another thing: to someone who is not actually a manga or anime fan, manga, manwha, and "Amerimanga" (I don't like that word, it sounds to much like Japanimation) all look remarkably similar and they would probably not be able to tell a couple different titles apart unless they became a fan of the genre. Heck, when I read Ragnarok Vol. 1, I just thought that Tokyopop had flipped a manga (this was just going out of style at that point), not that this "manga" was actually a Korean art form known as manwha. Last edited by Necros Antiquor on Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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No, you don't. You draw "manga-style." And you know what? Calling it manga style, doesn't make it anything less than it would be if you called it manga. "Manga" isn't a badge of honor, it's just a descriptive noun. As I pointed out earlier, "manga" means "Japanese comics" and you're not Japanese, you're canadian. I hope you aren't insulted by this, I'm really trying to do make it clear that I don't feel your art is inferior because it isn't Japanese. You might wonder why I'm so vehement about this. It really doen't bother me what you call your art, you're a fan of manga and you're drawing art in the style that appeals to you. That's fine. If I had any artistic talent, I'd probably be drawing pictures in the manga-style as well. But we get a large number of press releases from companies releasing new "anime" and "manga" every month. These are american companies that are producing their work here. The creators at these companies aren't anime/manga fans (some surely are but..), they're just drawing stuff that looks like what's popular now, and then they're trying to brand it as such. (The PR firm for the Chronicles of Riddick animation was adamant that I had to cover their anime product) You're a fan. You draw manga style because you like it. These companies do it just because they think they can use the "manga brand" to make a quick buck. If your art is manga, then so is theirs. And if their stuff is manga, then I should be posting their press releases. Do you really want me to crowd ANN with news , press releases and reviews fo third rate products from North America that are trying to catch in on the popularity of anime? Personally, I don't. So I stick to the rule that Anime/ Manga = "Japanese Animation"/"Japanese Comics" with no exceptions to that definition. Where I do make the exception, is ocasionally covering pseudo-anime / pseudo-manga when I think it might be interesting to our readers. -t |
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Tempest
I Run this place. ANN Publisher Posts: 10472 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Have you ever asked Fred Gallagher his opinion on this subject? I admit I haven't, but If I remember correctly from second hand conversdations with people who know him, he doesn't call MT a manga. For a person who's apparrently chronicly insecure, I guess he's secure enough in thequality of his work that he doesn't need some dumb label to validate it. -t |
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Izlude
Posts: 323 Location: Wherever The Wind Takes Me |
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Have you actually read any japanese manga or seen some work done by professional comic book artistis? Not all of them are exactly masters of human anatomy ethier, especially when you look at most manga out there that take proportions to insane extremes, like Eiken for example. You cant expect people new to the industry of comic making, let alone amatures to have all the know-how, that is something that develops and evolves on its own. That goes for just about any comic/manga artist out there.
C'mon, they have a very limited deadline and they cant really do a whole lot of pages. Its like a one shot in Shonen Jump, and those arent exactly impressive ethier, but they can be entertaining and worthwhile to test the waters of the artists, which is exactly what Tokyopop is doing here. Don't hate the amature artists, they got potential and talent to make it someday! The comic industry is in quite a hunch, because DC and Marvel's own comics are constantly overshadowed by japanese manga because they have more compelling characters, stories and artwork these days compared to your typical crime fighting superhero. People want diversity, and thats what they are getting with todays generation of rising artists. Anyways, to me, manga is a medium. Its not a style, or a brand,or anything. Its just a medium and anyone is free to use it I think. If someone wants to call their work manga, then they may do so, its their god given right. If someone disagrees, f'ing in the azz
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