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Comics and Digital Piracy


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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:58 pm Reply with quote
Apparnetly the girl with the Hetalia question stormed out in a huff when she didn't like the answer. Nice wrap-up for the panel Smile
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musouka



Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 718
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:14 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
Apparnetly the girl with the Hetalia question stormed out in a huff when she didn't like the answer.


Despite what the panelist said, I really doubt that there were plans to bring over the series before they saw how popular it was here and in other places outside of Japan. Hetalia is sort of different too, in that the initial fandom was focused more on translating the webcomics (that can be seen for free on Hidekaz's site) as opposed to the published material.

With the advent of fandom becoming so enormous, I'm sure that's changed and scans can be found of the printed volumes too. But that doesn't negate the fact that the fandom formed around the core of translating a webcomic for other fans.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:40 pm Reply with quote
One major issue that kept popping up at the various panels I attended is that the Japanese owners of these materials are much more resistant to the digial process. TP & Yen Press both said the Koreans are much more open to the idea of posting stuff online.
THis even cam up at Bandai as Ken Iyadomi specifically mentioned looking up titles on Amazon & hoping the Japanese fans were not reverse-importing. Basically a certain business mode has worked in Japan for ages & they are reluctant to allow their stuff to be put into product that could interfere with their gouging the Japanese fans. I noted a lot of Japanese titles seemed to not be on the contents page of the test model of Yen Plus. The American titles were there & Time & Again & Jack Frost were there.
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Anime Remix



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 354
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:41 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Aoki noted that this was becoming less and less common, although it does happen with some titles, so it was unfair to trot out Conan and Initial D, which operated under different rules.
I kinda didn't understand what they meant by Conan. Can anyone inform me on what they mean by Conan? It's kinda a stupid question to ask, but, I kinda want to know... :S When I think of "Conan", I think of Detective Conan English Translation that Viz currently is doing. Embarassed

Quote:
Aoki brought up that the recent closure of some scanlation sites has led some fans to complain about "greedy publishers," but that these same fans don't seem concerned about the scanlation aggregators making money from the unpaid scanlators' work.
Exactly. Wink
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:56 pm Reply with quote
Anime Remix wrote:
Quote:
Aoki noted that this was becoming less and less common, although it does happen with some titles, so it was unfair to trot out Conan and Initial D, which operated under different rules.
I kinda didn't understand what they meant by Conan. Can anyone inform me on what they mean by Conan? It's kinda a stupid question to ask, but, I kinda want to know... :S When I think of "Conan", I think of Detective Conan English Translation that Viz currently is doing. Embarassed

Quote:
Aoki brought up that the recent closure of some scanlation sites has led some fans to complain about "greedy publishers," but that these same fans don't seem concerned about the scanlation aggregators making money from the unpaid scanlators' work.
Exactly. Wink


I'm assuming they mean Detective Conan, whose translation operates under the same company-enforced-issues as the anime does w/some name changes and such, hence the Case Closed name. People like to complain about that, though it seems pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
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Anime Remix



Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 354
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:14 pm Reply with quote
Paploo wrote:
Anime Remix wrote:
Quote:
Aoki noted that this was becoming less and less common, although it does happen with some titles, so it was unfair to trot out Conan and Initial D, which operated under different rules.
I kinda didn't understand what they meant by Conan. Can anyone inform me on what they mean by Conan? It's kinda a stupid question to ask, but, I kinda want to know... :S When I think of "Conan", I think of Detective Conan English Translation that Viz currently is doing. Embarassed

Quote:
Aoki brought up that the recent closure of some scanlation sites has led some fans to complain about "greedy publishers," but that these same fans don't seem concerned about the scanlation aggregators making money from the unpaid scanlators' work.
Exactly. Wink


I'm assuming they mean Detective Conan, whose translation operates under the same company-enforced-issues as the anime does w/some name changes and such, hence the Case Closed name. People like to complain about that, though it seems pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
Ah. Thank You for explaining it! Anime exclamation I don't really mind the name changes at all. The series is still great. The cases are still exciting to solve and, the murders are still breath taking! Anime hyper

~Sigh~ Just got to love Detective Conan (Case Closed). Wink
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Lasciel



Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:21 am Reply with quote
musouka wrote:
Paploo wrote:
Apparnetly the girl with the Hetalia question stormed out in a huff when she didn't like the answer.


Despite what the panelist said, I really doubt that there were plans to bring over the series before they saw how popular it was here and in other places outside of Japan. Hetalia is sort of different too, in that the initial fandom was focused more on translating the webcomics (that can be seen for free on Hidekaz's site) as opposed to the published material.

With the advent of fandom becoming so enormous, I'm sure that's changed and scans can be found of the printed volumes too. But that doesn't negate the fact that the fandom formed around the core of translating a webcomic for other fans.


Hetalia is different. The creator is more accessible than most, being bilingual and taking requests for sketches and such. There's little in the manga that can't be found in the webcomics, so the whole "they've already read it for free! so they won't buy the manga!" just does not fracking work here.

It (the manga) has been a top-seller in Japan too, even though everyone there speaks Japanese and can read the webcomic without need of a translator Rolling Eyes

People buy the manga cause they love Hetalia, they love Hidekaz, and they might want a nice shiny hardcopy. No one is buying it for the content/story as new material, unless they were already too lazy to read it online.
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Sheleigha



Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 1674
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:32 am Reply with quote
Maybe one day instead of just having the publishers doing the panel, some of the mangakas should join too. I've read WAY too many posts on how "evil" the publishers are, and apparently are spokesmen that people rather disslike... So maybe having a mangaka there, whom fans obssess and idolize, telling them their feelings on the whole thing, may get some people to think about the situation a little bit more?
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matrixdude



Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:45 am Reply with quote
I still don't get why they won't admit that they use the fansub world to gauge what is popular enough to license and what isn't. If hetalia didn't have any backing nobody would have even thought of it, just like gurren lagann. Having a popular mangaka there wouldn't do anything to help the topic because they can't talk about anything specific or they loose their contract. They don't even mention on how they're planning to reach the younger audience that doesn't have money or credit cards to buy this stuff. They didn't even answer the guy asking about if hetalia would've been picked up or not right, all they did was burn him for thinking that the fans have some brains. "they aren't looking to exploit fans", keywords for "we can't say that we are trying to milk you in public". Of course they're trying to exploit fans into spending their extra money on buying their products, they're a business! Frankly its disappointing to read about how these panels are held yet all the answers seem to be that the fans don't know s*** and that piracy is the thing to blame for everything. How about taking a bit of responsibility and acknowledging that you failed to keep up a fiscally sound business?
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Paploo



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:12 am Reply with quote
Sheleigha wrote:
Maybe one day instead of just having the publishers doing the panel, some of the mangakas should join too. I've read WAY too many posts on how "evil" the publishers are, and apparently are spokesmen that people rather disslike... So maybe having a mangaka there, whom fans obssess and idolize, telling them their feelings on the whole thing, may get some people to think about the situation a little bit more?


The boos Nabeshin gets at his panels when he talks about piracy tells me that probably wouldn't help much. Some fans just refuse to accept the dangers of piracy towards the industry.

I think they were mostly talking about manga-scans in general in response to the question about Hetalia. If these were translated webcomics hosted on her webpage w/her own permission, that's not really the same thing as gauging the popularity of a title based on something like OneManga, which seemed to be what she was trying to validate. And even then, they'd probably detemine whether or not to license it based on what they know *sells*. Bishonen-ridden manga tend to sell well for TP, and the theme of the seires is pretty funny plus the anime just go licensed, so it was probably a no-brainer. They license manga no one's ever heard of all the time
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Shiroi Hane
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 7580
Location: Wales
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:12 am Reply with quote
matrixdude wrote:
I still don't get why they won't admit that they use the fansub world to gauge what is popular enough to license and what isn't.

When I asked someone who actually worked for ADV (I don't remember who) some years ago he denied this, and pointed to the fact that they were often pre-licensing or even funding the creation of anime. Admittedly there seems to be less of that going on these days.
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abunai
Old Regular


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:40 am Reply with quote
Shiroi Hane wrote:
matrixdude wrote:
I still don't get why they won't admit that they use the fansub world to gauge what is popular enough to license and what isn't.

When I asked someone who actually worked for ADV (I don't remember who) some years ago he denied this, and pointed to the fact that they were often pre-licensing or even funding the creation of anime. Admittedly there seems to be less of that going on these days.

I don't often call people outright liars, but anyone who claims that the industry does not look at fansub popularity as marketing data is simply not being honest. I can't imagine any industry where data on a potential market, being freely available, would be ignored.

Of course, it is unlikely that the industry would ever admit that, since it might be seen as a chink in the armour of its uncompromising stand on fansubs as piracy.

Not that it is germane to a discussion of the morality or legality of fansubbing, but the process of "piracy" is not always one-way. I am aware of a case where the published edition of a manga was directly derivative of a fansub, word for word in (many) places, to such a degree where there was no question what had occurred. Such cases, while not immediately obvious to the general public, also constitute a weakness in the industry's moral/legal position. If you're going to throw stones (or have your lawyers do it for you), you had best check whether your house is built of glass, first.

- abunai
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Zin5ki



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 6680
Location: London, UK
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:58 am Reply with quote
Whilst I concur with the comments regarding the problems of aggrigators (as distinct from scanlations), the need for a "manga Crunchyroll" and the virtues of international accessibility, I find the response to the first question asked to the panel, as presented in the article, to be somewhat dismissive of an intuitive point.

To state that a professional is better informed than a fan translator does not suffice to counter the claim that scanlations can allow for new titles' popularity to be guaged. Fortunately, Forbes appeared to show more interest in the services of scanlators when answering the question that directly followed.
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LordRedhand



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 1472
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:17 am Reply with quote
I don't know abunai, I'm willing to trust someone who has an invested interest in seeing the manga and anime markets grow and be successful than someone who doesn't. We've seen that big numbers online do not equate into big sales before so while it may show consumption it does not show sales, which is what both markets need, buyers.

I'd like to think that the manga and anime markets, at least in the R1 area, have matured enough to know what does and does not sell in their market, without using a metric or "market research" that has proven itself to be false. It becomes more so when you get into things like co-productions or the distributor actually on the production committee. Or in the case of manga OEL works... Seriously there is some doubt to the fan narrative of what they claim to be benefits of the wrongs they engage in.
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 8:58 am Reply with quote
abunai wrote:
Shiroi Hane wrote:
matrixdude wrote:
I still don't get why they won't admit that they use the fansub world to gauge what is popular enough to license and what isn't.

When I asked someone who actually worked for ADV (I don't remember who) some years ago he denied this, and pointed to the fact that they were often pre-licensing or even funding the creation of anime. Admittedly there seems to be less of that going on these days.

I don't often call people outright liars, but anyone who claims that the industry does not look at fansub popularity as marketing data is simply not being honest. I can't imagine any industry where data on a potential market, being freely available, would be ignored.

Of course, it is unlikely that the industry would ever admit that, since it might be seen as a chink in the armour of its uncompromising stand on fansubs as piracy.

Not that it is germane to a discussion of the morality or legality of fansubbing, but the process of "piracy" is not always one-way. I am aware of a case where the published edition of a manga was directly derivative of a fansub, word for word in (many) places, to such a degree where there was no question what had occurred. Such cases, while not immediately obvious to the general public, also constitute a weakness in the industry's moral/legal position. If you're going to throw stones (or have your lawyers do it for you), you had best check whether your house is built of glass, first.

- abunai


But here's the thing what the person who asked the question wanted was not "we take fansub popularity into consideration" but "yes we liscensed Hetalia entirely due to it's sucess as a fansub".

If you use fansubs as a gauge to the popularity of the product your going to overpay and not make the money. Take for example Gundam Seed, an anime that was HUGE with fansubs, but the TV airing bombed, and I don't remember the DVDs doing particularly well, with FMA a series that while huge with fansubs was equally huge with dvd sales which did tremendous, and great ratings on TV making it one of the biggest hits of the decade, and certainly the most popular TV anime.

How can you tell the difference? I remember Ouran High School Host Club outselling Code Geass, even though OHSHC was getting nowhere near the hype CG was getting in the fansub circle.
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