Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Gankutsuou
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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No, you're right, and if the director had blatantly failed in what he set out to do then it wouldn't matter very much what his initial intent was. But in this case where the matter can appear ambiguous, I thought that that kind of clarification might be helpful. If you follow through the evidence that's been provided and then cap it off with director confirmation (and hey, it's not like it's a confirmation coming out of the blue, here) it's not really a fallacy. |
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OldCharlieStoletheHandle
 Posts: 1288 Location: Mastic Beach, NY |
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Just a few random thoughts about episodes 5-8:
The swordfight, I believe, is a case of the Count toying with his prey. Obviously, just killing the people who wronged him is not enough; they must be made to suffer. I think the Count derives a perverse enjoyment over how easily some people can be manipulated. I also think he sees Maximillien's mercurial temper and disdain for the aristocracy as qualities that make him a useful tool. It seems that Haydee, instead of being just the Count's mistress, will be more directly involved in the plot, given her grand entrance (and that dress) and that she has a history involving the General. The Count's manipulation of the Danglars was rather obvious, playing to their greed. I did, however, find the Baron's reaction to the huge influx of money into the Count's account interesting; one might have expected such a greedy, gluttonous hog to react with glee thinking he could make a lot of money. Instead he reacts in a much more intelligent manner, becoming suspicious (and afraid too) and trying to investigate. The Count also shows an ability to go beyond mere charm by seducing Mme. Villefort; is this another part of his seemingly vampiric nature? It seems that by the end of episode 8 all the players have gathered (any more and I will need a scorecard) so the plot can begin in earnest. We (at least, those of us who have not read the book) have some interesting questions to think about: What's in the box, and what about the child of Villefort and Mme. Danglars? We know from what she said if the child is alive it would be 17 years old, so there are several cast members who could fit the bill. I also wonder how the writers will fill in the Count's back story; will there be a long flashback, a series of shorter ones, or will they find some other way to do it? |
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Imperialkat
 Posts: 227 |
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A few random thoughts of my own.
It is amazing how the Count gently pushed them into the swordfight. It looks like he planned those series of events from the start by giving Albert the sword, gently pushing Maximillien's buttons, then goading Albert into a deul with a soldier. Of course, there is also the look that comes across the Count's face whenever certain things happen. The episode with Eugenie's parents was interesting. The Count managed to buy Madame Danglars' horse, knowing full well it was hers, only to return it. He lost a good chunk of change in that exchange; what did he gain? Also, the Count definitely pushed all the right buttons with Madame Villefort. We see question marks about the Count form in the minds of Danglar and Villefort. While Villefort is offput from the outset (then again, he seems offput about everything), Danglar is taking the "one eye open" approach. Where will this mounting mistrust lead? The Marquis seemed to take a direct line to Eugenie, although the Count surely told him that she was engaged (well, it's not like it mattered). What's his deal, and what are his "interesting talents"? Ahh, Peppo busts in on Albert while he's sulking in the shower. Classic. And the Count purchased Villefort's old villa and somehow got the two "secret lovers" to return to the scene of the crime. Hate. |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I'm older, so Baptistan is Elvis. I love that he goes shirtless under his vest.
Awesome animation. The 3D boobies were a bit off, but the overall effect was stunning. I love that the Count in a later episode says, "It is not my custom to attract undue attention to myself". Of course, that's the beauty of the dialog, the inclusion of "undue" in that sentence.
It's a guy thing, you know?  . But, seriously, two of the best buddies I knew in high school literally beat the sh*t out of each other one night, with blood and stitches. One of them was ribbing the other, and he went one joke too far and personal. The next day they were laughing, and wincing, about it through their bandages. The friendship was the truth, and the fight was a lie. Or in other words, they were just being stupid, but were both smart enough to know it. I do think the Count set them up to go past reason into pure emotion, but once they got a little space, their reason returned. Max, being Max, would also have been devastated at actually harming Albert and be immediately contrite. He did try to catch him when he fell.
It was a beautiful thing, though, how he gave the sword to Albert, then maneuvered them into a duel. I'm not sure I understand why he did it, other than to sew dissension and to drive home the varying viewpoints on romance and marriage (possibly set up for later). It's late... I can't think about it more.
I can't help it... my first thought when he said "gold" was that he sent Elvis to knock off a back corner of one the columns in the basement. Once you start seeing the trillions being poured into his accounts, buying that horse for him was like me sticking a quarter in a parking meter. As to why, it's just his plan relies on building trust, or adoration. He leverages everyone that he can snare, starting with Albert. From then on, he cultivates pawns for use in case he needs them. I don't know if he was unaware of Heliose's toxicology hobby, but it seems so from his expression at the microscope. A bit too convenient for him to have the ring, but it could easily have been part of his standard weaponry, like Villefort's derringer. But he sees that she could be useful and that he can easily manipulate her. "Nothing is more enticing to humans than poison." Again, great line. He identifies the obsessions of his victims, the things that erode their humanity, and pulls the string on those until he finds the dirty secrets that he can use against them. He knows they are there, because obsession always results in faulty reasoning, thus unethical behavior. This aristocracy being so degraded morally, it's to be expected. I'm all the more impressed, thinking back to the first episode and how well it introduced this society. Albert's near-miss with the poison was interesting. The Count might have been overly clever with Heloise, where that led to a random incident that could screw things up. Like putting too many pieces into play, introducing too many variables and then not being able to control them all. He certainly could not afford to lose Albert at this point. I got the feeling he was a bit shaken from that aspect. I frankly don't recall all the future details, but assuming his goal is revenge, Valentine wouldn't be the target. Her death would just be a side issue, so it wasn't necessary to support Heloise's purpose in that direction (unless the inheritance factor has something to do with it directly). No more reason than general spite and could have intended consequences. So here's my theory... The Count is actually acquainted with Yuuko (xxxHolic), and his wish was revenge. The price he paid was to become a blue vampire ("Not at all. He is a darling child."  ). Why? He says, "In fate, there are no coincidences." Just a thought...
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I've not actually read the book (an embarrassing situation, as we have it in the house), although I have read the first chapter or so a while ago. Interesting that such information would be omitted and treated as a spoiler here, although I suppose that comes from altering whose perspective we see the story through. I am somewhat familiar with the story on the whole, due to catching that episode of Wishbone, and bits of other information elsewhere. As such, I'm aware of the Count's motivation, his relationship with Mercedes, Albert's connection to the Count, the complications involved, and thus the Count's motivations regarding him.
I think it only makes for a twisted viewpoint coming from a man whose marriage came about from a "storybook romance".
Forgive me if the question was meant to be rhetorical. Are we free to assume in this conversation that spoiler[the Count's desire for revenge against Morcerf, Villefort, and Danglars] is common knowledge? As such spoiler[entering himself into the good graces of their wives allows him access to sabotage and destroy their lives from within. The act of getting Danglars to sell his wife's pushed another wedge into an already loveless marriage, making it that much easier to destroy Danglars at some later time, and returning the horse (with some shiny new presents, it looked like) earned the Count the gratitude and adoration of his wife. Plus, there's the bonus of the spy camera in the horse's eye.]
You take what the Count says at face value? This "place far far away" might be as much figurative as literal. The best lies have an element of truth to them, but there are also hints that indicate that he does indeed have ties close by. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Well a lot of the major plot points in the book are the same in the series, so it's really not fair to assume people know the gist of the story. I certainly didn't when I first watched Gankutsuou. But do feel free to C&C as the points come up.
I'm confused. So for people in arranged marriages it's okay to force yourself to feel a certain way about someone? I'll always feel that that's wrong, while of course other traditions won't. The fact of the matter is, though, Fernand isn't even admitting that aristocratic marriages are loveless; he seems to think it's some kind of guaranteed reaction, that if you marry you can twist your own feelings into those of love. That seems to imply a few things about his own marriage...and while the current episodes do show that he has intense feelings for Mercedes, I'll have to question their depth later on. Episodes 9-12 (Spoilers) Episode 9: I Dreamed a Dark Dream Summary ~While Mme. Danglars lies collapsed, Villefort threatens the Count, asking how he knows so much about them. The Count replies that he's simply a soul from eastern space, but Villefort is unconvinced. Danglars and others arrive, interrupting their conversation. Albert and Franz split up to find Eugenie, who is still in the labyrinth of the mansion. Albert runs into Cavalcanti, who menacingly tells Albert that only Cavalcanti can understand the Count. Franz spies the Count come through a secret door suffering, with markings lighting up his forehead, and hears Bertuccio call the Count "Gankutsuou." Meanwhile Albert finds Valentine and Maximilien getting along nicely in the garden, and promptly collapses. The Count cures him and gives him bedrest while Franz and Maximilien look on, discussing Valentine and marriage. It turns out that Albert's collapse was caused by drinking from Valentine's poisoned cup, so Albert takes Franz and Maximilien and heads to Valentine's to warn the family; unbeknownst to him it was Mme. Villefort who poisoned the cup. They rush to save her as Valentine drinks poison; upon arrival Maximilien falls into despair and Albert rushes to see the Count for a cure. The Count, however, is on a "business trip"; we actually see him alone burying the prize chest and speaking of the dead child. Villefort hires a PI to dig into the Count's background, but the Count has a man tailing the PI.~ Alright, first up this is the clincher for me about Franz and Albert. Maximilien says they have a "special bond," and then Franz gives his speech about marriage--"if you truly love her, then that should be all that matters...you can't simply fall out of love, even if the relationship is such that you can't marry the person...getting married isn't necessarily the only way to bring the person happiness." He's clearly referring to himself in the passage. This is also FORESHADOWING (well, not exactly, but I can elaborate later). Then there's Albert finally showing some maturity, saying he wants Valentine and Maximilien to be happy at all costs. Also it looks like Cavalcanti is being set up as Albert's rival and foil both in terms of the Count and in other areas. Props to the translators-- "anathema" is a great word, and I was happy to hear it used in the Count's incantation. It looks to me like that chest is where Mme. Danglars and Villefort put their child after it was born, with the way the Count was talking to it and everything. Also the score towards the end of the episode was magnificent--it reminded me greatly of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake. Finally, it looks like the Villeforts are taking center stage for this "arc" (it's not really an arc because the storyline is woven so well throughout the series). I really, really, really like the title of this episode. It's just flat-out poetic. Episode 10: The Letter from Edmond Summary ~With Valentine still unconscious, Villefort kicks Albert and Maximilien out of the house. Meanwhile, his PI sends a letter saying a priest has been making similar inquiries around Marseilles as to the Count, and is focusing on the life of a poor, dead old man named Louis Dantes. Villefort is horrified when he reads the name Dantes, and even more upset when he receives an invitation to a funeral. Cavalcanti is visiting Danglars to talk about money, when Danglars receives the same funeral invitation, to his horror. Morcerf also receives one, and when Mercedes hears the name from Albert she, too, is shocked. Mercedes tells Albert it's nothing, but Albert can sense something is amiss. Mercedes thinks later about how Dantes is dead. Albert follows his father to the "funeral" and watches Danglars, Villefort, Morcerf, and a new character Caderousse assemble and discuss the connection between them. Apparently they did something to Edmond Dantes and he was sent to prison in the Chateau d'If and died. They open the coffin to find Villefort's PI dead; Villefort later has a dream that it was the Count of Monte Cristo, disguised at the priest, who killed the PI. Franz, Maximilien, and the bespectacled character are fleeing with Valentine, but are stopped by Noirtier, who signs to them that it was Mme. Villefort who poisoned Valentine. They are then stopped outside the mansion by Mme. Villefort, where Villefort happens upon the scene and calls his men.~ This episode is just the quintessence of well-laid, fascinating, cliff-hanger drama. Both sides of the story were engaging, and it's hard to say which was more enjoyable--Albert's spying or Maximilien's kidnapping. Ah, Heloise, you have sealed your fate. The more I watch this the more I think the OP and ED should be flip-flopped. Finally, these are the most puzzle pieces we've had yet. Fernand, Danglars, and Villefort (along with Caderousse) did something to a man named Edmond Dantes years ago, who also had something to do with Mercedes. And it sounds like they did something that got him sent to prison. And now someone is on to them. The game is afoot. Episode 11: An Engagement Broken Summary ~Franz and co. manage to escape when Mme. Villefort falls ill due to her ring malfunctioning, and Albert is able to block the police coming from the other direction on his motorcycle. While Maximilien makes his escape with Valentine, Franz, the bespectacled character, and Albert will be tried by Villefort himself. In the evening Albert witnesses a fight between his parents where Mercedes asks Fernand to reveal anything he knows about Dantes, letting slip that she only married Fernand because she believed Dantes dead. Fernand yells at her, telling her Dantes died years ago, and then yells her name brokenly. Villefort is hot on Maximilien's trail, while Mme. Villefort awakens. Albert and Franz fight because Franz suspects the Count targeted Mme. Villefort specifically and is indirectly behind the poisonings; Albert staunchly defends the Count, saying only he understands the true Count. Villefort confronts Heloise, getting her to admit she is behind the poisonings; Mme. Villefort subsequently threatens to kill herself, saying it will cause a huge scandal, but Villefort calls her bluff and when she is unable to do it tells her he has reserved a room for her at the insane asylum. Heloise's sanity then cracks. Albert visits the Count who calls what happened to the Villeforts "karma" and then passes down the wisdom "bide your time and hold out hope." Eugenie visits Albert to give him a ticket to her debut at the opera house, and Albert gladly accepts; Cavalcanti makes his move on Eugenie. When Albert arrives home, he is informed that Danglars has broken off his engagement to Eugenie.~ Poor Albert. And poor Franz--he's watching his best friend and the person he loves slowly stolen away by a suspicious person. Can't really say more than that but Franz is generally correct in this series, much moreso than Albert. And pay attention to how closely Albert observes the relationship of his parents; it accounts for his shock now and will account for some of his actions later. This is a bit of a misleading title because at first glance it appears to refer to Franz and Valentine--but NO. Just as Albert and Eugenie start to get along again, they are crushed. Eugenie's been kind of annoying up until this point because of her ice queen routine, but that side of her is really gratifying when she fends off Cavalcanti. Kick him, the bastard. Cavalcanti is the character you love to hate--he's nowhere near as sympathetic as the Count, despite the evil faces the Count makes. Albert's mancrush reached unprecedented heights in this episode. "I want to be a strong man...just like you." And Heloise: 
She's a very sad woman. She obviously married for money, probably against her will, to a man who neglects and completely ignores her until she's so lonely and squeezed into such a tiny space that all she can do is contemplate her son's future, which drives her to murder. Still that doesn't excuse her actions at all--she could have packed up and left as certain other characters will do in the future, instead of becoming obsessed with wealth. Also Edouard's a brat so I'll be glad when he's out of the picture. Episode 12: Encore Summary ~Eugenie is informed of the broken engagement and lashes out at her father angrily. Cavalcanti pays Eugenie a visit to profess his love, but she staunchly refuses him. He then implies that the Count is behind the unsavory rumors regarding the Morcerfs, and that the Count is hardly ever wrong. Fernand is being blackmailed by Caderousse, who refers to Fernand as Mondego; Franz and Eugenie have coffee together and discuss Albert's recent behavior. Eugenie says that the broken engagement was decided by both families, but Franz gets her to admit her feelings. Albert tries to attend Eugenie's debut, but Danglars uses force to keep him from going in the front door. Lucien lets him in through the side as a favor to Eugenie, but all Eugenie has seen is Albert's empty seat. They briefly meet after her piece and confirm their feelings for one another; however, during the encore Albert is taken away and Cavalcanti presents Eugenie with roses. Albert is put into the lobby where he meets with the Count, who comforts him. Outside, Villefort is waiting for the Count to arrest him for the murder of one of Villefort's manservants who was earlier poisoned along with Valentine.~ AH I LOVE THIS EPISODE. So very much. When Albert gives Eugenie the grapes and she puts them on the piano, it's so very sweet. And then to leave us with that cliffhanger! There's another important line in here about grapes, something said by the ever-observant Mercedes--"the grape vines always bear fruit no matter the season." It's a reference to the looming corruption in the series, as well as the isolation of Paris. It points to how unnatural their world is, how corrupted and removed it is from nature. I'm also inclined to say that Albert got a lot of his temperament from his father (both tend to ignore reality and plunge ahead) rather than his mother, who is attuned to everything. And I think this is the episode this screenshot came from but I can't remember: 
Anyway, I hadn't noticed the moon before but I think it's cool and also effective. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Like you originally mentioned, it's twisted from our cultural perspective, however, that's not necessarily indicative of what it signifies in the story. We have to consider whether Fernand's interpretation of love is in line with other characters. I read The Three Musketeers, which I believe is set in the same period, and the impression I get about the common thinking regarding love and marriage is that are two separate matters, and while ideally you would have both, starting with one and working your way to the other is fine. |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Yes, but this is a modern reinterpretation, which means that we can't look at the values and traditions of the book to necessarily guide us. In the context of this world, parts of the younger generation (Eugenie, Albert, Maximilien, Valentine) embrace romantic love and modern ideals, rejecting arranged marriages. Fernand is clearly in conflict with this, and his statement is perceived as negative in light of Albert's romantic love. It's not some sensitive cultural insight into arranged marriage. Thinking about it realistically, how many nobles' children in Dumas' time would resist arranged marriage? Not many. They were much concerned with consequence, status loss, etc. They accepted their cushy, pre-planned lives without much protestation. Gankutsuou is a modern reinterpretation, and so is infused with idealistic romantic love as opposed to more pragmatic principles, which juxtaposes Fernand's opposing viewpoint, especially in a series so overflowing with romantic love (more of which we see later--the "big couple" has yet to be revealed). |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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Man, I am so behind in watching this series, I'm only up to episode 6. Something about the visuals makes it really difficult to look at the screen for 20 minutes straight so I'm kinda going maybe 1 episode every three days or so, but I'll try and catch up at least to last week's bookmark. It's not that I don't like the visuals, it's that it puts a massive strain on my eyes for some reason, there's just too many patterns of varying shapes, colors, frequencies, whatever that the instant anyone moves it hurts my eyes. Sure, it's fine if they're not moving or moving incredibly minimally, but the instant someone does some flaunt with their arm, oww...I think it's actually that the pattern doesn't move with the people which looks technically impressive but is hurt to my eyes
 and I've seen things that do this before but with fewer patterns (like Mononoke and Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei) but visual overload here to the max! And I seriously think it's gotten worse as the episodes go on for me and not better, I'm really hoping that this doesn't prevent me from finishing the series. It makes my eyes feel like they are going to start bleeding and then melt out of my sockets, is anyone else having this problem still?
But anyway, so far, I've found the story is interesting and some of the ways that the Count is stirring up emotions on purpose are interesting to watch, like when he bought Mrs. Danglar's horse with every intention to return it just to see how she and her husband would fight. It makes me think that a theme of the series might be that love isn't real or that it's easily broken or disturbed over time. Since everyone keeps saying that betrayal is a theme of this series too, maybe it might also explore or imply that love in of itself is a type of betrayal or betrayal waiting to happen if you ask me. |
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Prede
 Posts: 388 |
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Hey guys. Yestorday I finished watching up to episode 8, but I didn't get a chance to post. Sorry but I can't post my thoughts right now either, going to bed. But I'll be sure post what i have to say as soon as I can tomorow. Sorry for being late, hope that's cool
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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This is the point. While Fernand espouses this ideal of arranged marriages, it was certainly not the norm. The marriages were understood to be for political purposes, and extramarital relations were assumed to stand in for the romance component. Rather than people growing to love one another romantically, which is certainly possible when both work at it, the majority would have considered it unnecessary. Both other families in Gankutsuou represent the common case. I keep putting off watching the eps til the deadline... need to try to get them sooner, because I keep expecting to discuss the previous eps at the "end" of the viewing period. |
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DerekTheRed
 Posts: 3544 Location: ::Points to hand:: |
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Yeah, I haven't forgotten about this show, I like it so far and I want to finish it, so I'm posting here so that I have more invested. I guess...
Stupid family and holidays and what not, let me get back into a normal routine! |
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rainbowcourage
Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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I thought Prede was having similar trouble before. Honestly that's...bizarre, almost symptomatic of epileptic-type stuff. I'd suggest watching from farther away, and try with lights on/off. It sounds like people need more time for some episodes...would it make sense to extend this set of episodes a few days to let people catch up? Like maybe until next Thursday? Also don't think of it as a "deadline," please feel free to discuss whatever point you're up to as long as you don't go ahead of schedule. |
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pparker
Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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I would also suggest more light, further away (smaller frame), though I have no problem with it. Maybe focus on something static in the frame, in the background? Don't know, but I've heard that somewhere, maybe for motion sickness, but your reaction doesn't sound like that.
No, I anyway don't need more time. There may be a catch-up from the holidays for some, though... I hope. I just need to adjust my viewing schedule, but I think it's fine. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Really? While it's clear Villefort cares not at all for her, I was under the impression that she was always just in the marriage for the money, and that, rather than going in against her will, she had planned from the beginning to execute her black widow ploy: knowing from the start of Valentine's potential inheritance, planning to eliminate her and have Eduoard usurp it. The earlier comments about how Villefort's first wife had died young and beautiful after declining in health, combined with the current Mme. Villefort's interest in toxicology, seemed a clear hint that she had been poisoned as part of the plan, as well.
And yet Albert and Eugenie's relationship had been at the start of the series, awkward and indifferent, with the two drifting apart from their childhood friendship until Albert began following his father's advice, did it not?
And Albert, Franz, and the rest are clearly depicted as being idealists and romantics, yes, but that they talk about how corrupt the world is shows that they are not the majority point of view in the world of Gankutsuou. We don't see how other children of nobility act, as that would further complicate a complex story, but given the amount of influence Danglars, Mercerf, and Villefort have, that they expect arranged marriages to be accepted, we can assume such proceedings are the norm. Bear in mind, I'm not entirely sure what exactly the point of my argument here is. |
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