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TiredGamer
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 246
Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:55 am
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So all that screaming and crying earlier was kind of a waste, eh?
And does Aramark run a Japanese restaurant there? It'd be nice if foodstuffs were at least offered. But that is another story.
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superdeformed
Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 88
Location: New Orleans, LA
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:27 am
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Yep, pretty much what I figured it would be. I dunno why people got so crazy over this issue.
Aramark runs all the food eateries at my college, boy do they suck. However, they do have a crappy sushi place at my school, so maybe they will have that. Mmmmm... nothing like cold sushi and brown ginger. YUM.
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TiredGamer
Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 246
Location: Florida
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:56 am
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Sushi isn't supposed to be cold. Damn.
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Jerseymilk
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 157
Location: Wouldn't YOU like to know.
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:10 am
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superdeformed wrote: | Yep, pretty much what I figured it would be. I dunno why people got so crazy over this issue. |
Because that's what anime fans always do. They panic and jump the gun, even when the chairman of said organiztion personally tells them nothing has even been decided or explained yet.
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zegron
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 19
Location: Ohio
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:22 am
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Those rules seem perfectly reasonable.. In fact a little more lenient that I thought they were going to be.. now.. If I could only get to Otakon.. oh well. Have fun for me those of you who are going.
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TakinawaTonfa
Joined: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 96
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:47 am
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The only reason that people got crazy was because it started as a rumor that Otakon was gonna ban fan art entierly. Of course, this was BEFORE any officially announced changes to the rules.
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Carl Horn
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 90
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 am
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The philosophy behind these terms seems reasonable enough; that is, that the exhibitor or attendee must accept responsibility for their actions while at the con. Many conventions have this as a general disclaimer for membership.
I have observed that Otakon in fact does have perhaps the largest artists' alley (a term which is itself telling about the U.S.; in Japan they are the equivalent of artists' towns or artists' cities) of any U.S. convention. But even a few hundred tables does not make it "just like Comiket;" this would be like a U.S. anime con where a few hundred people show up proclaiming that they are "just like Otakon." It isn't Otakon's fault that the fan art scene here is so small; indeed, the irony of this controversy is that they've always done a great deal to encourage it at their own convention.
If I may say so, however, I believe the background to this policy describes the state of fan art as it relates to anime and manga in Japan (which is where anime and manga come from, after all) in a strangely vague and timid fashion. It gives little respect to the prominence of fan art in Japan (which, again, is where the anime and manga are coming from). It's not a "so what's your point" observation; the same cultural environment in Japan that creates the anime and manga industry we love also gives rise to—not merely tolerates—the fan art scene which is so strong over there.
The policy's discussion of fan art would be like a convention saying "We hear that some people in Japan publish manga, and also, there are some anime shows on TV over there." The policy gives only the sense that fan art exists on sufferance. That is technically true in Japan as well, but to leave it at that is a classic illustration of the difference between de jure and de facto—that is, what the law states versus the reality of the situation.
In fact Comiket is only the largest fan art event of hundreds of national and local ones held each year in Japan. There are two Comiket events each year. And either one separately is larger than every single "official" or "professional" anime or manga con in the U.S., all year, put together. You would hardly guess from the tone of the policy that there are brick-and-mortar chain stores devoted to selling fan art in Japan, or that it played an important part in reshaping the character of an entire neighborhood in Tokyo.
I can understand some reasons why these facts might not be mentioned or alluded to. Because the environment (not necessairly the laws) is different in the U.S., to talk about the prominence, the un-marginality of fan art in Japan may seem pointless here, or perhaps even bringing exposure to liability.
And yet, I feel it is an omission, because in all fairness, what did our legal environment ever do to promote the creation of anime and manga in the first place? U.S. capital and the development of distribution here is a definite factor now in the business considerations of anime and manga studios. They know they can sell a certain number of units here. Yet I argue it continues to play a marginal role in guiding the direction of their creative output; what has happened is that Japan now has a better sense that more Americans like their original styles, not necessarily that they have changed their styles to better appeal to Americans.
In other words, while it is proper and necessary to acknowledge that the U.S. copyright environment poses certain problems for fan art at a U.S. event, it is also true that this environment can claim little credit for creating the original anime and manga industry and its works. Without the different, Japanese environment, there would be nothing for us to license and watch under our application of the rules, an application that we proudly exclaim has the purpose of "encouraging creativity."
It is true that there are reasons why fan art is weak here compared to Japan, but I think these are by no means unrelated to the reasons why animation and comics in general are weak here compared to Japan. A U.S. anime and manga con must express some de jure reservations about fan art. But I believe it can, and also should, express the de facto pride for the Japanese philosophy of fan art that it deserves.
Carl Horn
Manga Editor
Dark Horse Comics
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nagashi
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 78
Location: michigan
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:53 am
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well said Carl, thank you
I would like to note that much of the anger over this resulted from the ORIGINAL policy/examples listed on the otakon forums, which were a good deal harsher-seeming than what this final policy lays out. And I also think it's possible that the leniency of the newly published policy is the result of the explosion of criticism for the policy that was tentatively posted.
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burzmali
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:28 am
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So they went with the ol' eBay defense, "We aren't selling the illegal product, we're just a venue".
Of course eBay can hide behind the DCMA, while I doubt a piece of paper with a signature will do much to counter a lawsuit should an IP holder press the issue. In the end, they are still relying on the IP holders not to push the issue while telling the seller to keep the infringement to a dull roar. Can't say I blame them, shoehorning the operation into lily white legal territory is beyond their means. Though, it is kind of interesting to watch someone talk out of both side of their mouth - one side says that they care about IP rights and the other says they intend to stick their collective head as far into the ground as legally possible and hope any complaints just go away
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hikaru004
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 2306
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:28 am
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Otakon originally wrote: | Otakon's Artists Alley will be actively disallowing the sale of unlicensed copyrighted materials. If you own it, you can sell it. If you have license to it, you can sell it. But if it has material (images, sounds, etc.), in whole or in part, to which you DO NOT have permission to sell, then that material will not be allowed in the Artists Alley. Anyone found in violation of this rule loses their retail space in Artists Alley for the remainder of the convention. (The above statement will be officially/legally worded and posted on the site during February, after our lawyer and Otakorp President have approved it.)
5b. Policy for the DISPLAY of unlicensed copyrighted material - provided it is NOT FOR SALE - is currently under review.
Works of parody, for which the U.S. legal code permits fair use exemptions to copyright, may be permitted. These will be reviewed on a case by case basis. |
Actually, I think that this and the final version are quite similar in concept. It's only been worded more legally. It also goes one step further and puts responsiblility for legal ramifications solely onto the artist participant via the waiver.
Still, the final version is a pretty reasonable document imo.
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jvowles
Otakon Representative
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:55 am
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Carl Horn wrote: | The philosophy behind these terms seems reasonable enough; that is, that the exhibitor or attendee must accept responsibility for their actions while at the con. Many conventions have this as a general disclaimer for membership.
I have observed that Otakon in fact does have perhaps the largest artists' alley (a term which is itself telling about the U.S.; in Japan they are the equivalent of artists' towns or artists' cities) of any U.S. convention. But even a few hundred tables does not make it "just like Comiket;" this would be like a U.S. anime con where a few hundred people show up proclaiming that they are "just like Otakon." It isn't Otakon's fault that the fan art scene here is so small; indeed, the irony of this controversy is that they've always done a great deal to encourage it at their own convention.
If I may say so, however, I believe the background to this policy describes the state of fan art as it relates to anime and manga in Japan (which is where anime and manga come from, after all) in a strangely vague and timid fashion. It gives little respect to the prominence of fan art in Japan (which, again, is where the anime and manga are coming from). It's not a "so what's your point" observation; the same cultural environment in Japan that creates the anime and manga industry we love also gives rise to—not merely tolerates—the fan art scene which is so strong over there.
The policy's discussion of fan art would be like a convention saying "We hear that some people in Japan publish manga, and also, there are some anime shows on TV over there." The policy gives only the sense that fan art exists on sufferance. That is technically true in Japan as well, but to leave it at that is a classic illustration of the difference between de jure and de facto—that is, what the law states versus the reality of the situation.
In fact Comiket is only the largest fan art event of hundreds of national and local ones held each year in Japan. There are two Comiket events each year. And either one separately is larger than every single "official" or "professional" anime or manga con in the U.S., all year, put together. You would hardly guess from the tone of the policy that there are brick-and-mortar chain stores devoted to selling fan art in Japan, or that it played an important part in reshaping the character of an entire neighborhood in Tokyo.
I can understand some reasons why these facts might not be mentioned or alluded to. Because the environment (not necessairly the laws) is different in the U.S., to talk about the prominence, the un-marginality of fan art in Japan may seem pointless here, or perhaps even bringing exposure to liability.
And yet, I feel it is an omission, because in all fairness, what did our legal environment ever do to promote the creation of anime and manga in the first place? U.S. capital and the development of distribution here is a definite factor now in the business considerations of anime and manga studios. They know they can sell a certain number of units here. Yet I argue it continues to play a marginal role in guiding the direction of their creative output; what has happened is that Japan now has a better sense that more Americans like their original styles, not necessarily that they have changed their styles to better appeal to Americans.
In other words, while it is proper and necessary to acknowledge that the U.S. copyright environment poses certain problems for fan art at a U.S. event, it is also true that this environment can claim little credit for creating the original anime and manga industry and its works. Without the different, Japanese environment, there would be nothing for us to license and watch under our application of the rules, an application that we proudly exclaim has the purpose of "encouraging creativity."
It is true that there are reasons why fan art is weak here compared to Japan, but I think these are by no means unrelated to the reasons why animation and comics in general are weak here compared to Japan. A U.S. anime and manga con must express some de jure reservations about fan art. But I believe it can, and also should, express the de facto pride for the Japanese philosophy of fan art that it deserves.
Carl Horn
Manga Editor
Dark Horse Comics |
Hey Carl. Feel free to drop into the Otakon forums to talk about this, or send me a private email, or if you'll be around at Katsu, chase me down and we can talk over a drink or something.
Comiket, of course, was, and remains, the inspiration for our Alley, which is why we mentioned it. But it does little good to make statements about what the rules and practices are in Japan when they aren't necessarily the same in the US. We don't know the intricacies of Japanese legal practices and at any rate they wouldn't apply.
There was originally more language affirming that we "get" that industry isn't, by and large, gunning after fans in artist alleys. But that could be read as us giving a statement with legal weight to it, which is why what we say in the end is that "we don't think they have done it, but we can't guarantee they won't, especially if you push the limits".
And as someone who's been around for a while (since the late 80s when anime was shown on betamax in a hotel room at sci-fi cons, if at all), I *totally* get that fandom is what make the US industry possible, which is why I really liked that interview with Matt from ADV. They've long been a strong supporter, and I think they "get it". They're trying to find ways to work with, rather than against, fandom and embrace technologies such as streaming. But on the other hand, fandom has to learn to meet them halfway, and understand that nothing is really "free".
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jvowles
Otakon Representative
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:04 pm
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hikaru004 wrote: |
Otakon originally wrote: | Otakon's Artists Alley will be actively disallowing the sale of unlicensed copyrighted materials. If you own it, you can sell it. If you have license to it, you can sell it. But if it has material (images, sounds, etc.), in whole or in part, to which you DO NOT have permission to sell, then that material will not be allowed in the Artists Alley. Anyone found in violation of this rule loses their retail space in Artists Alley for the remainder of the convention. (The above statement will be officially/legally worded and posted on the site during February, after our lawyer and Otakorp President have approved it.)
5b. Policy for the DISPLAY of unlicensed copyrighted material - provided it is NOT FOR SALE - is currently under review.
Works of parody, for which the U.S. legal code permits fair use exemptions to copyright, may be permitted. These will be reviewed on a case by case basis. |
Actually, I think that this and the final version are quite similar in concept. It's only been worded more legally. It also goes one step further and puts responsiblility for legal ramifications solely onto the artist participant via the waiver.
Still, the final version is a pretty reasonable document imo. |
I'm glad you find it reasonable - that was always the intent.
The law pretty much says that if the owner objects, you have to relent. We're making it clear that we're TOTALLY supporting that. And if we catch stuff that goes past our comfort level and could reasonably be perceived as "ripping them off" rather than "expressing fan enthusiasm", we have recourse to do something about it. It's tricky territory. We aren't required to act as police or customs agents, but we also can't ignore obvious violations *if* we believe it is likely that the owner would object.
Honestly? I think that, as it generally has, anime fandom will do a decent job of policing itself. But at the same time, we need to figure out where, ethically, we draw the line.
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jvowles
Otakon Representative
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 219
Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:18 pm
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burzmali wrote: | So they went with the ol' eBay defense, "We aren't selling the illegal product, we're just a venue".
Of course eBay can hide behind the DCMA, while I doubt a piece of paper with a signature will do much to counter a lawsuit should an IP holder press the issue. In the end, they are still relying on the IP holders not to push the issue while telling the seller to keep the infringement to a dull roar. Can't say I blame them, shoehorning the operation into lily white legal territory is beyond their means. Though, it is kind of interesting to watch someone talk out of both side of their mouth - one side says that they care about IP rights and the other says they intend to stick their collective head as far into the ground as legally possible and hope any complaints just go away |
I think that's an unfair characterization of the policy.
The easy route would have been to say "no unlicensed art, period".
We *do* care about the IP rights, but it's a tricky area. Derivative works can almost always be acted on by the owner. There is no hard and fast rule that can be easily applied to protect fans. We know that industry is, for the moment, apparently unwilling to go after fans who are inspired by cool stuff and attempting to express themselves artistically. But they sometimes do go after counterfeiters or unlicensed merchandisers, which is why we've taken pains to clarify our position there.
So we're supporting what we understand to be the prevailing attitude of the creators and owners (or rights-holders), but also affirming that we *absolutely* support the rights of any creator/owner to show up and say "you can't sell this, it's mine". (We wouldn't exactly be supporting them if we ignored their wishes in this area and banned it all.) Instead, we say "we fully support you if you choose to act". That is, under the law, pretty much what we *must* do, so we're affirming it.
Just ask yourself: Would a reasonable creator object to your use of his creation, or would he feel you were ripping him off? If so, then you shouldn't do it.
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burzmali
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:43 pm
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jvowles wrote: |
I think that's an unfair characterization of the policy.
The easy route would have been to say "no unlicensed art, period".
We *do* care about the IP rights
.
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.
Just ask yourself: Would a reasonable creator object to your use of his creation, or would he feel you were ripping him off? If so, then you shouldn't do it. |
As I said, you folks aren't political activists so I won't expect you to take the steps you needed to legalize your stance, but you are essentially espousing the concept that it isn't a crime unless someone objects / gets hurt.
As about talking from both sides, I notice that the policy lacks a requirement to take reasonable steps to notify the IP rights holder (or representative) of your intent. Simply dropping off a copy of your "derivative" work at their table and letting them raise an objection at their whim doesn't seem that hard. So as I said, you are saying that you are supporting IP rights, but the only actions you will be taking will be reactive.
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redbeangirl
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 10
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:27 pm
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Hey...I'd just like to second the request that folks go back and take a look at the ORIGINAL post on the Otakon boards before they dismiss the initial outrage of some artists.
While the final version of the rules seem reasonable enough, the original post by Rachel Ann (partially quoted above) explicitly stated a policy of "If it's not your original character, you can't sell it at the con." The fact that many people interpreted that as "no fan art that isn't for display only" seems pretty reasonable to me.
Not interested in getting into yet another debate about the morality of fanart -- just asking for a little understanding. ^_^
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