Forum - View topicREVIEW: Ergo Proxy Complete Collection DVD
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Bonham
 Posts: 423 Location: NYC |
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Pretty fair review. It's been so long that I really don't know if I'd think more of Ergo Proxy, or still consider it a compelling failure/experiment, but I still think it's something worth watching at least once.
It suffers from two (perhaps three?) significant problems: the characters won't shut up, and a mishap structure. Ergo Proxy is the Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence of anime television. The characters pontificate over their lives, various themes and ideologies, etc. and have no little to no regard for letting the visuals tell the story. I'd almost like to this is a parody at times -- like the ridiculous spoiler[Icarus myth being so on-the-nose that I can't help but roll my eyes or laugh at it] -- and certain episodes may support that notion (the Walt Disney episode, the quiz show, the astonishingly brilliant and moody episode where they do NOTHING), but it also seems to take what it is doing quite seriously, as well. I can forgive Evangelion most of the time because of the psychological/human complexity given to the characters, but outside of Pino and Re-l, the characters aren't terribly complicated, nor are they interesting as archetypes. Which leads me to the other point, where the series is really all over the replace... It wants to be a Serial Experiments Lain or Texhnolyze, but it has neither the tonal consistency of the former or the structural cohesiveness of the latter. Lain was also largely episodic, but it was about revealing various aspects of the story's mystery and/or thematic ideas related to society adapting to a more globalized, interconnected lifestyle... so when the big revelations drop in the final few episodes, those various pieces connect together. With Texhnolyze, while some may protest the pacing (relative to nearly all anime it's slow, I guess, but it's par for the course with more artistic/ambitious films, novels, etc. so I think categorical dismissals are weak arguments), the writing is as tight as a drum. No episode is wasted, and from what I recall, neither is any scene: they all contribute in some way to the setting, characterization, narrative advancement, etc. In contrast, Ergo Proxy is all over the map. But this isn't entirely a bad thing. I'm actually more fond of the "filler" episodes than much of what precedes and follows them. I think Dai Sato is a better episode writer than a series writer (consider his work in Cowboy Bebop, Samurai Champloo, Wolf's Rain, Ghost in the Shell: Standalone Complex), so it's in those individual episodes where his conceptual approach works a lot better. Episode 16 of Ergo Proxy is one of my favorite episodes, simply because nothing happens (until the end with Re-l, I suppose). The ship and the plot come to a literal halt, so we have this moment of boredom and cabin fever captured perfectly for our trio. It's also just really, really funny. The last point would be that, like Carlo, I don't really think too much of the overall look of the series. Shukou Murase is not Ryutaro Nakamura or Hiroshi Hamasaki. We either have muddy colors or incredibly polished, sleeks tones, which aren't very appealing, beautiful or exciting... which is another reason why I think the atmosphere of episode 16 works so well. But for all that, there are a lot of compelling ideas, and it's ambitious in a way more anime should be, even if it falls short of its goals.
I dunno. There's a lot of talking around key plot points, both figuratively and literally. If the world-building was more grounded, and you had a more expansive cast, I could get into it. But as it stands I didn't really buy much into the settings because it was relatively cliched sci-fi/cyberpunk, although when the actual backstory is revealed, I can't help but think spoiler[any theoretical continuation/sequel would involve a war with the returnees, with some serious superhero action from Vincent and other remaining proxies. It's a weird mash-up of genres from a show that wants to address universal yet complex ideas.] |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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I'm curious as to how the reviewing process for the dubs went. Did the reviewer actually rewatch (presuming a bit) both language tracks on this rescue release? If so, which was first?
I ask, as I saw the dubbed track first and I did not have the confusion that the reviewer and others in this thread seem to be having. I saw the ending as being fairly coherent, for example. I ask out of curiosity. While I did not care for the Japanese dub due to it (IMO) mis-casting Re-L (among other things), I would still consider it to be what ANN refers to as "serviceable". Parsing the story through the subs was a bit of a PITA IMO. I wonder if the order of the language tracks, assuming both would be watched and a more-or-less dependence upon subs for the Japanese track, would affect "comprehension" of the show. Again, just idly curious. I sometimes, like Bonham here, think that I would have preferred it if Ergo Proxy had "played it straight" with its dystopian sci-fi premise, instead of diverting into more "surreal" episodes that included things like MCQ-q-q (quiz show), The Library and Will B. Goode, but then I realize that if it had done that, it would have been but a less macabre and slightly more "grounded" retread of Texhnolyze. I loved Texhnolyze, but I hold Ergo Proxy above it, mainly due to the presentation of the plot that it gave (and in no small part the Re-L char design). On this, I'm not sure why other fans herein are saying that "nothing happened" in those eps. Character development and plot furthering occurred, even if it was playing second fiddle to the show rambling a bit about its thoughts on existence. If there were an anime of similar "intellectual" standing which took similar dystopian scifi themes and "played it straight", I'd be all over it. Please don't keep it a secret if there is one  I feel a pressing need for another "intellectual" anime. Fun pandering shows like SAO have their place, but I like to punctuate em with something a bit more nourishing to the mind.
I can't say that I agree with the grade presented in the review, nor can I agree that Ergo Proxy failed to live up to its goals. I can say that I can see how viewers could quite easily agree with/arrive at those. The show is not quite to the point, and rarely explicit. Unlike shows like, say, Shiki it does not present something vaguely to the viewer and then a few eps later explain it plainly so that viewers who might have missed it are on the same page as those who picked up on the vague implications. TBH the show rambles on and proceeds a bit slowly so I can see how one could miss some of the more subtle, and essential, implications. Personally I loved the show and watched it meticulously and multiple times, but I know many who gave it a rather perfunctory watch, enjoyed it, but didn't pick up on the "big picture". I realize that, unfortunately (lol), not everyone has the same obsession with this show as do I. A wordier retread of Riddley. Oh, as to
This would be fairly difficult as spoiler[the conditions for the "pure" humans living in space to return to Earth include the removal of the permanent Sun-blocking dust cloud surrounding the Earth, which would bring in the blue skies which are anathema to the Proxies. Perhaps the Proxies could move at night, but this is unknown. Moreover, I think it is a fair assumption that the returning humans would know how to deal with the Proxies were they to become a problem. The Earthbound imperfect humans didn't know how to deal with them until Daedalus stumbled upon the solar solution and implemented it on a small scale. The returning humans could be packing some serious scathing solar weapons to vanquish any lingering Proxies, I assert. I know if I were them, I would.] |
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DangerMouse
Posts: 3989 |
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Yeah, I think/hope it does, cause it definitely deserves it's own following of hardcore fans.
I gotta totally disagree on this part, I absolutely love Shukou Murase's style, both this and Witch Hunter Robin I think look fantastic with his signature style and WHR also shows more color with the magic effects. I really wish he got to do some more shows. I actually thought he was just getting started when he finally returned with Ergo Proxy for then new studio manglobe after I also loved WHR, but then manglobe started having to do adaptations and they stopped doing stuff from creators like Watanabe, Murase, etc. except for finally eventually doing Michiko & Hatchin. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14815 |
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An example of less makeup is more.
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Ddoddka_10
Posts: 34 |
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one of the good series out there.. does have some flaws eg Vincent and his questioning 'who an I' .. but this series has one of the best endings I've seen in anime.
spoiler[the ships coming down to land as you see Vincent in proxy form....] I loved it and only a couple other anime top it in ending... Code Geass being one of them <--- cannot top that [EDIT: Regardless of whether I agree with you here or not (and I don't), spoiler tags are required for stuff like this. - Key] |
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Bonham
Posts: 423 Location: NYC |
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I'm actually not sure what I would have wanted out of Ergo Proxy... which I think is mirrored in the show, which can't quite decide what it wants to do or be. I think something played straight would have been a bit dreary, which isn't a bad thing, but it would need to really invest in making me emotionally involved in the characters and ideas. Chiaki Konaka did that in Texhnolyze just fine, and I think Dai Sato could have pulled it off with Ergo Proxy -- Eureka Seven is proof of that, even with its flaws. But that's ultimately not the product we got with Ergo Proxy. Taken on their own terms, I think the "filler" episodes are generally successful. In the grand scheme of things, they contribute to some tonal and structural problems I alluded to in my previous post (while they give plenty of great character moments and important plot/historical details, there's little sense of carryover and world-building, and they also deny momentum for the plot and the viewer). Yet I wouldn't really give any of them up -- even the library/book store episode, for how much it talks around itself, is still entertaining. I also think it's interesting to say Ergo Proxy would have been a retread of Texhnolyze if it had been played straight throughout. There are a lot of overlapping ideas -- they're both sci-fi/cyberpunk/dystopian series, after all -- but they really seem to be about radically different things. I figured EP to be more concerned with identity and all the baggage/questioning that comes with trying to define who we are relative to our personal history and environment. TEX seems much more interested in showing how much humans invest in symbols and ideology, and what happens when we take such beliefs/interpretations to their extreme. Interpretations will differ, of course.
I actually agree with all that, which makes the very ending kinda problematic for me. spoiler[Vincent's final words and smile seem to indicate him preparing for what is about to come. So I think it's an ending that encourages a relatively optimistic outlook... which would probably include fighting back against the returning humans. The logistics of such a war? fudge if I know. I don't know if Sato necessarily gave it that much thought, either...] It's really something I need to watch again. This review and discussion has tempted me to buy Funimation's re-release.
I certainly don't mean to say Murase's a bad director or anything close to that, and Ergo Proxy (and Witch Hunter Robin, although that's been even longer for me) certainly is very nice-looking, with more than a few memorable shots (episode 11 sticks out for some reason). But personally I just don't know if the show's overall look reflects/embodies the ideas it's going for. The washed-out yet also vibrant tones in TEX really compliment and enhance the narrative (and spoiler[I've never, ever seen anything else in anime look like the surface world; the staff did a tremendous job paying homage to Edward Hopper]), and the severe contrasts and "overexposed" imagery in Lain do the same job. In Ergo Proxy I feel the colors are functional, but not much beyond that (excepting the shots in the barren landscape). But this is not as much a real criticism as an aesthetic tic for me. I can see why others would be attracted to Murase's style and think otherwise. |
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5901 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I really don't know how long spoiler[the real humans have been away from the Earth.] If it has been a significant amount of time, there is no guarantee spoiler[that the real humans actually know anything about the Proxies or that actual conditions on the planet.]
Sounds like there is no manga or visual novel for Ergo Proxy, since no one has spoken up about it already. If that is the case, then there is probably no hope for a continuation. |
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maaya
Posts: 976 |
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Actually there is a manga adaption.
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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