Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime Season 2
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Yuvelir
Posts: 1618 |
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Look, let's settle this once and for all: is it about morality, is it about OUR law or is it about the unknown law of another world? Bolt down that goalpost. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5909 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Nothing good will come of further discussion. We just disagree.
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Number 6
Posts: 46 |
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Johan Eriksson 9003 said:
What do you mean war crimes? No war crime is being committed here. Rimuru killing these 20000 knights, soldiers and mages is not a war crime. It's just war. And if Rimuru wants to preserve his own nation, regardless of having friends he wants to ressucitate, this is the choice he has to make. |
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Richard Eisenbeis
ANN Reviewer
Posts: 91 |
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1) I feel that I should win the argument because of Godwin's Law alone. 2) However, as you've all but called me a Nazi sympathizer in a vastly oversimplified analogy, what the hell. I'll take the bait. A more correct analogy would be:
TL;DR: Nuance is important. |
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Number 6
Posts: 46 |
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Richard Eisenbeis said:
Hm, no, Rimuru is not the strongest, fastest man. That title belongs to Hinata as the strongest woman, as far as we know, and she's on the side of the attackers. You seem to have forgot that detail. Nuance is indeed important. Knowing this, after flambéeing the officers and boss in charge, letting the soldiers go, how will the other Axis powers and the Church, which in this case, is on the side of the attackers and literally doing a crusade in their perspective, how will they respond? |
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Yuvelir
Posts: 1618 |
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Is Hinata faster than Rimuru... or she faster only when Rimuru's capabilities are severely crippled due to a barrier ambush? If we're playing at being nitpicky, at what point did Rimuru take into consideration that letting knights live would mean that the church would retaliate and thus he needs to annihilate them in order for the church to stay put? At what point did he consider ANY reason other than revenge and resource extraction with the purpose of maybe-resurrection when formulating his plan? |
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Number 6
Posts: 46 |
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Yuvelir said:
She's powerful enough to ambush him without him or Great Sage noticing and then has a sword that if it hits you seven times, if i'm not mistaken, kills you for sure. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, I'm trying to see the bigger picture and the consequences of this. You ask when did he consider it? He considered it when he heard that becoming a Demon Lord means he'll have more power. Power to prevent this from happening again. |
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Johan Eriksson 9003
Posts: 281 |
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No. Setting out with the intention to completely annihilate an underpowered enemy is not "just war". It is called "no quarter" and it is explicitly forbidden under the laws of war. And I have covered the many different tactics Rimuru could use to secure his nation without resorting to war-crimes before so I won't repeat them again. Once again, I would like for people who have never once opened a book on law or history to stop making definitive and wildly inaccurate statements about these things. |
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Number 6
Posts: 46 |
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Johan Eriksson 9003 said
I'll defer to you on that knowledge about No Quarter. In the end, it's meaningless in a world with no rules for war crimes. As per the different tactics for securing his nation without resorting to fear and death, those are in the end useless in the long term. Specially in regards to the Church, which has the hate of monsters in its faith and Clayman manipulating things in the shadows, as well to whoever told Hinata about the death of Shizue and Rimuru's involvement in it. This situation has demonstrated that he needs more power and no alternatives are available. He has no other choice, regardless of how much you think he has. |
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Yuvelir
Posts: 1618 |
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Stealth doesn't equate power. She set up a trap to a clueless and careless slime, that won't happen a second time. Plus that convenient sword got destroyed. To have a fighting chance against Rimuru, she needs to set up a trap, isolate him and make sure he goes to where she needs him to be. That is not a realistic expectation at this point. Not like it matters in the end whether Hinata is or not stronger since the existence of those footsoldiers will not affect at all Rimuru's chances against Hinata. I re-checked the episodes and indeed he mentions that he covets the title as a political tool, so in the most nitpicky sense I was wrong. He does want power to protect his home (with the intent of stopping all attacks, not because he thinks his nation will be crushed otherwise). However, and pardon me for moving this particular goalpost, that is irrelevant to his current conflict with Falmunth as that will be over before he becomes a demon lord; whether he commits war crimes or goes for the lowest headcount he can manage, Falmunth will lose against a particularly powerful slime, not a demon lord. He wants that power to defend against future potential attackers, not the current ones. Killing with an ulterior motive beyod winning against his aggressors is no longer self-defense in any way, shape, or form. To reiterate: at no point did Rimuru consider that he needs to enact this massacre to triumph against the enemy forces, that was never part of his thought process nor the justification he gave to his people. |
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Number 6
Posts: 46 |
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@Yuvelir
Make no mistake, I agree with you that to win the war, Rimuru doesn't need to massacre the incoming 20000 knights, soldiers and mages nor I said it was self-defense. I, however, will not condemn his actions as if he suddenly became a tyrant nor will I get frustrated with the lack of morality of them. To me, he's doing what is necessary to fight against future attackers. To me, he has no other choice, he has to display his military might to prevent further attacks from people who will not listen to diplomacy. Falmuth didn't even give him the opportunity to talk, they just cornered him, and the nation of Tempest itself, to the point where he, as the ruler, cannot give them mercy. |
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Yttrbio
Posts: 3664 |
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Which, to me, is what makes this development so stupid. Assuming you're the target audience, the idea that this dramatic shift in Rimiru's approach to the world is not going to be accompanied by any thought about the morality of his actions is precisely what makes this terrible writing. It's like the writer decided one day to write a different show, but didn't want to go through the effort of starting over.
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thedarkemissary
Posts: 88 |
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I'd say your nuance is a bit off too. Too equate it to a single officer and 200 completely innocent youths. You know, all those mages working the barriers took part in the attack. Entire cavalries of guys rode through that town murdering women and children and elderly. The 3 otherworlders also took part, and pleasure, in the attack. These are grown men making decisions, blood on their hands. Didn't not one stop to say, "Is this wrong? Maybe I shouldn't shove my sword through this little girl's face as she cowers on the ground in a pool of her mother's blood. Nah, she's just a monster." And then another legion of guys are coming in to complete the genocide. They ain't there for land or resources or slaves. They're there to wipe out these lesser species for not being human. So, waggle your 'killing is bad' hippie finger all you want, but I'm with Taratino on this one. Kill all the Nazis. And when they're dead, kill them some more. And yes. The options were do nothing, OR try the ONLY thing to save the actual innocents that died. |
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minamikaze
Posts: 234 |
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No, sorry but you are incorrect. "No Quarter" means refusing to accept the surrender of enemy combatants and instead killing them. That is a war crime, but that is not what is taking place in the show. I posted this before, but you must have not read it. I had also included the source of the quotes at the bottom.
Last edited by minamikaze on Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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minamikaze
Posts: 234 |
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Falmuth is not the only opponent Rimuru and Tempest is currently facing in this conflict. There is also the Church and the Demon Lord Clayman. Just beating Falmuth will not be sufficient: the other two opponents will still remain, and Rimuru currently lacks the power to defeat either of them. The method that Hinata used to ultimately kill Rimuru's double after it swallowed her sword, was the spell "Disintegration". Rimuru acknowledged that he would not have survived it, and she still has that, and who knows what other powerful spells (and/or weapons). Also, as the leader of both the imperial guard and the holy knights, she is apparently the strongest fighter in those groups, but it seems very likely that those groups are composed of elite fighters who are almost as strong as she is. Considering Hinata does not know how Rimuru survived, I'm sure she would bring other members of those groups if not all of them to face Rimuru the next time. Additionally, Rimuru also acknowledged that he might not have been able to have beaten Hinata even if she had not used the barrier that weakens monsters. So avoiding being caught in the barrier the next time would not guarantee that Rimuru could even beat Hinata on her own, let alone if she were accompanied by the imperial guard and holy knights. Then there would be the Demon Lord Clayman to deal with. He ordered Mulan to create the anti-magic barrier around Tempest, which prevented Shuna from being able to use magic to possibly stop the otherworders and the subsequent rampage of the 100 Falmuth knights before casualties arose. We saw in the first season that Shuna has powerful sleep magic, and that was before she became a Kijin and her magic became even more powerful. Prior to the massacre, there was the scene where we see Milim seething in Clayman's castle, and soon after, we hear that she attacked Carrion. So I think it is pretty safe to say that Clayman deceived Milim to get her to fight Carrion, in order to deprive Tempest of two extremely powerful allies, either of whom could have also probably stopped Falumuth and the Church's plan before anyone died. Considering the actions that Clayman has already taken to exacerbate the situation, if Rimuru pursued the "just capture the King of Falmuth and hold him hostage until he agrees to sign a treaty" plan that has been cited multiple times in this thread as the correct way for him to respond to the invasion force, it is clear that Clayman would definitely take further action to prevent it from succeeding. After the King of Falmuth is taken hostage, Clayman would very likely send a few members of the Moderate Harlequin Alliance (who have already displayed their ability to appear anywhere at any time) to kill the King while he is in the custody of Tempest, and thus destroy any chance for a treaty, as well as frame Tempest for the killing in the process of course. The King's death would obviously give the Church all the justification they would need for an all out attack, which would include Hinata and the imperial guard and holy knights, as well as likely turn all the human nations against Tempest. So someone might ask, how would the above result be any different from the one arising from Rimuru killing the King along with the invasion force, as he is currently planning to do? The obvious difference is that with Rimuru's plan, in addition to the mathematically small chance of resurrecting Shion and the other citizens killed by the 100 Falmuth Knights, Rimuru becomes a Demon Lord. As, you mentioned in a previous post, the human nations do not mess with the Demon Lords. Which is not surprising, since Demon Lords have been described, (and in Milim's case actualy shown) as having power levels many orders of magnitude higher than anything else in this world. So Rimuru having the power of a Demon Lord creates a situation where none of the human nations or the Church can even dare to try and take action against him after he eliminates the King and the invasion force. He would be too powerful for Hinata and the imperial guard/holy kights to defeat. Not only that, but as a Demon Lord, Rimuru would have the power to intercede in Milim and Carrion's fight, clear that up, and then confront Clayman for everything he has done, although not necessarily in that order. |
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