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Forum - View topicThis Week in Games - The Many Mixed Fortunes of Sony
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Kicksville
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All the way back in 2002 or 2003, I recall message board posts from a Japanese fan who came across English language reviews for the then-new Melty Blood. Back then, there was practically no information about Tsukihime in English, so the tidbits he provided about it were valuable (even if, admittedly, they frequently didn't make sense due to his grasp of the language).
He tried to ask us if we knew who the model for Arcueid was - this may have even been his primary reason for seeking out foreign fans, I forget. Unfortunately we of course had no idea. I'm glad someone remembered to look into it again. |
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Mikan-box Glasses-kun
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Oh that's really fun to learn about Arcueid! Gonna send this to my sibling and its partner that live in Australia, I'm sure they'd find it fun.
Though there's one thing I'm going to have to disagree with the column on, and that's PSSR; apologies since this is gonna be nerdy. It's Sony's answer to DLSS, and like DLSS it is genuinely good and useful. To give some more context to that, the fact you're noticing improvements at all (especially in a terrible YouTube stream) is great, as like DLSS, it can upscale from a much lower resolution in a way that reduces overall CPU and GPU usage. This is the kind of tech very likely being used by Nintendo right now (as shown by a bevy of very nerdy and credible documentation leaks) in their upcoming projects for the Switch 2, because of just how important it is in keeping hardware and energy costs down while mostly being invisible or even better for the end user. Overall, I feel like it's the one positive thing from an otherwise unnecessary piece of console hardware that's just... essentially only made for hardcore, very well-off gaming enthusiasts? |
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Fireminer
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We used to play games rendering at a lower resolution because of hardware limitation. Now we play games rendering at lower resolution but then upscale it because of hardware limitation. What madness is this?! Just pick a native resolution and make sure that your games run well at it. And if people play your game on underpowered hardware, then they already don't need the upscaling. It's not just new games. I abhor re-releases being upscaled, be it games or movies. Unless the master was made at a higher resolution, then just don't touch it. But if Sony want to play this game, then they should also consider how different would their PSSR be to DLSS and FSR 3. Just how difficult would it takes for devs to make games that can run well on all three techs? The smart choice here seems to me like Sony should've had gone with FSR 3 instead of proprietary technology. The increase in PS5's price and the PS5 Pro's sticker price make me suspect that Sony are really desperate to recoup their losses. It's not just Concord being a flop. How are their movie division, music division, or electronics division doing nowadays? The article already mentioned that people didn't have the disposable income to go to the cinema. Well, they also don't have any money to buy a new Xperia phone or Bravia TV. Sony stuffs are the good thing, but goddamn aren't they expensive. |
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Silver Kirin
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I once heard that, despite being part of the same company, Sony's movie, music and technology divisions aren't that connected, there's some sinergy between them, like last year's Gran Turismo movie, but they're more like separate entities. However, if we want to talk about them, I think its movie division is kind of a mess, outside the MCU Spider-Man and the Spider-Verse animated ones, they had had major flops, both critically and commercially with some of their tentpole films like Morbius and Madame Web, Venom: The Last Dance might perform very well, but I don't have a lot of expectations for Kraven the Hunter. In regards to their technology division, they have lost a large market, especially in regards to the manufacturing of televisions and phones (I don't know if Sony is still making smarthphones, I haven't seen one in ages), to South Korean companies like Samsung and LG, and aslo Chinese ones. It feels like PlayStation is Sony's most successful product, I don't know if it's their largest division, as they also have chemical or insurance divisions, but I doubt PlayStation can carry all of Sony. |
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Mikan-box Glasses-kun
Posts: 88 |
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I sorta understand where you're coming from, if you don't understand all that much about tech trends nowadays. Not a criticism! It's really unintuitive unless you understand the reality of technology nowadays, which is: computer chips aren't getting cheaper. Legitimately, they aren't getting cheaper fast enough to reduce prices enough to double or quadruple CPU and GPU transistors to do what you're asking, and even then, the kind of upscaling I'm talking about is part and parcel of FSR3 as well, just not as good as DLSS and PSSR because it doesn't run on dedicated hardware for it. And it's not even bad upscaling! DLSS (especially on quality mode) often looks noticeably better than native resolution, due to how well it handles anti-aliasing. And, here's the thing: if you do end up having enough overhead, you can run PSSR and DLSS at native resolution to get that better anti-aliasing. (Definitely expect to see Nintendo do so on Switch 2 with certain games.) And as you might guess, the documentation is out there for PSSR, and it's really not that difficult to implement, especially if you're already supporting DLSS2 and FSR2. That's something Sony really wanted to make sure of, so that developers would adopt it faster. |
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Issac Sarrowtail
Posts: 101 |
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Honestly, I have been saying for years that what Nintendo does isn't magic. It's craftmanship, to be sure, but it's not impossible to do. It's never been impossible to do.... Hell, Nintendo (through interviews over the years) pretty much put out a guide on how to do it. What it is, however, is hard. That seems to be the thing that most executives don't get. A game of this kind of quality and charm ain't easy. Team ASOBI knows this, that team is one of the last remnants of Japan Studio, they have clearly gone through a ton of hardship to stay together and keep making games. Look at them now, making awesome games one after the other. I think that any Nintendo fan can respect that, because again.... what Nintendo does isn't magic. They are just one of the few to do it, because it is hard to do. Honestly, I feel sorry for Team ASOBI. It's a great game, that needs more eyes on it that it will never get because SIE hasn't built the environment for a game like that to survive in when it comes the users in playstation. I hope that they get the kind of sales that keeps them making awesome games (before the inevitable PC port), but man Sony Interactive Entertainment.... Just at this hits the stores, the Pro happened. Oof.
Yes and no.... because to be blunt, these scaling technologies don't change anything. That is their purpose really, to take a resolution that we already have and enlarging it without many of the artifacts associated with scaling. Like it or not, DLSS (and FSR/PSSR, and XeSS) job is best done when it is relatively invisible to the frame in motion. Not a single one of them are at that point yet, and I think that they are fundamental issues from getting there. Particularly with the ML/AI approach of generating a fame prior to creation. I will agree with you that it's likely the only good thing to come out of this but honestly, these are a set of technologies that need alot more time to bake. What makes it worse is that this is besides the point, PSSR (or any other scalier for that matter) isn't going to make the game better outside of looks. If you have something that looks drop-dead gorgeous but plays "meh" (at best)... did you do anything? I would hazard a guess of no.
That gets into a long standing issue that Sony has always had, the good old "left hand, right hand" issue. To understand it, you have to understand how Sony is structured as a business. They are a business conglomerate, they are not so much one single company as they are several different companies that share a name: Sony Corporation. It actually more descriptive to call them a Group because that is what they are collectively. There was a time that Sony Computer Entertainment was put under the oversite of the Sony Music Group early in the Playstation's life. All those games with a music tie in, the Monster Rancher Series.... now you know why that happened. Because of that oversite, SCE (Which is now SIE) needed to do something to justify being around. So those games were made, just as SMG was pushing the CD format. There are others, Sony has an electronics arm: actually named Sony Corporation. They have a banking arm: Sony Financial Services. The music and movie groups (SMG and Sony Pictures) are so large that they have several off-shoots that act independently from each other (like SMG Japan[for context, they own Aniplex], Sony Pictures America). I tend to call them collectively the Sony Group to keep it simple and these entities do talk to each other, some times effecting the other business. This happens with SMG and SP alot, because they have alot of assets that intersect (like Crunchyroll and what-was-Funimation). It's rare to see them collectively do something but when they do.... SIE ran afowl of that, the Group has not been liking the performance over the years and this year they decided to do something about. Jim Ryan is gone, retired but gone. The culling since has been the aftermath of that, because rightful... the Group doesn't see the point of dumping so much money for minimal gain (if that). As if to prove that point, Concord was pushed to market to jump a cliff.
Of all the businesses that the Sony Group has, SMG and SP happen to be the most volatile. SP has not seen good days as of late and to be blunt SMG seems a bit stagnant but with both businesses, all it can take is one big thing to be back in the black (or many little things going their way). It's about surviving till then.
First of Sony still makes phones... extremely high-priced phones and low-market ones, but they do still make them. That said, they has slowly but surely slid out of the zeitgeist of new releases, despite the yearly cadence. As far as TV's go, Sony got out of the besoke manufacturing business a while back... they take displays off of Samsung Display, put them in their boxes. I think that the biggest failing of Sony Corporation is the lack of fore-sight when it comes to semi-conductors, because believe or not, Sony's camera modules are in a TON of the popular smartphones (the biggest contract being.... Apple Inc.). And yet, they failed to see this fab-less world that we are in... and has mostly pulled out of competing in it.
The largest part of the Group, without question is the Music Group followed by Sony Pictures. It's also the source of a rather intense rivalry. Last edited by Issac Sarrowtail on Fri Sep 13, 2024 1:19 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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light turner
Posts: 194 |
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Astro Bot looks like a fine game but I'd be lying if I said it didn't come off more like an IP graveyard for all of Sony's old titles. If I want PaRappa I'll go easily emulate any of the 3 games from it. I don't need to hit my fix with seeing a costume on a robot in a game. Not really a system seller for me but it's nice PlayStation fans have a genuine exclusive now and one that's more than an HBO TV show proof of concept.
I don't mind a digital only industry but maybe that's because I don't play a lot of modern games anymore anyway and I play them mostly on PC where Steam sales are a thing and I usually wait until games are 5-10 bucks before buying them. Whether Steam continues to be good like that after Gaben dies is a bridge we'll have to cross when it comes up. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
 Posts: 564 Location: PA / USA |
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I definitely don't think that "the answer" moving forward is to rush to push out a bunch of Astro clones in an effort to cash in on the Mario 64/Crash/Spyro genre of 3D platformers, but we definitely need to see them make a resurgence I think.
You take a look at small projects like Pseudoregalia that got a lot of buzz for everyone that really enjoys that form of gameplay, and yet there's probably not the largest ton of people that have both heard of it and given it a play. Much like the PS1 era of Mega Man X4-style action platformers, there's a lot more that the genre could do or accomplish, but companies just aren't making those sorts of games right now (whyyyy Baaaanjo) - a new Donkey Kong Country of either 2D or 3D variety, a story followup to Metroid Dread, and definitely a new Banjo Kazooie game would almost-certainly turn heads. It's really interesting to see Astro getting more positive mention than most other game industry happenings the past week or two. It's also important to note that Astro didn't seem to be reaching for some physically unattainable live service goal either. |
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Greed1914
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The value proposition is the big problem with the PS5 Pro. Yes, if you broke out the parts, then a higher-end graphics card can be more than the whole system, but your usual console customer isn't looking at it in terms of what a comparable PC build would costs. It's in terms of "what does this do that my current console doesn't for that price?"
I'm not going to tell you that the Pro wasn't making any improvements, and a youtube video is going to affect it, but what it is doing is not so much that simply letting the two recordings run next to each other was enough to show it. Personally, enough games are moving you along fast enough or trying to keep you focused enough on the character that I know I'm just not going to see that stuff during actual game play. The games they showed were existing ones, and several were originally PS4 games. More powerful hardware can run your old games better? No kidding, but Sony already played that card with PS5 upgrades to those games. Some hope that it will be the "GTA6 machine" but I have my doubts. Third-parties already have to play to the lowest common denominator for consoles. Unless they get special permission to adjust something like Baldur's Gate, GTA6 will need to be functionally the same for the Series S, so it can probably only be a bit nicer on the PS5 Pro and still run across the board. Plus, I don't doubt that Rockstar will have its usual giant world with lots of, perhaps too much, detail. The most recent trailer they showed was apparently running at 2k resolution, which is something you'd see in performance mode, but also 30 fps, which is not. Maybe they can get that optimized better, but my guess is that GTA6's pro enhancements will still have you making some choices. |
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Mikan-box Glasses-kun
Posts: 88 |
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Hehe yeah, I think I have a different opinion of how good the most recent DLSS2 versions are compared to native without it, but that's fine! Definitely agree frame gen in DLSS3/FSR3 just isn't there yet though. I will comment on the last point though, which is... it depends! Ideally in a sane production, not having to optimize for native 1440p/4K with something "good enough to be nearly invisible to end users" would make things easier. And though it's TAA, in the case of Xenoblade 3 temporal upscaling legitimately did make the game possible in its final state, and freed up resources enough that Monolith Soft could do more stuff! The image quality even looked better than Xenoblade 2's vaseline look, which is a definite plus because the art direction was definitely hurt in that game. (I'm also really not a believer in running stuff native with zero anti-aliasing, so better anti-aliasing solutions are always welcome, even if they still have drawbacks.) And yes I realize that that argument means it was already technically possible to do that without hardware DLSS and PSSR, but making it hardware-based frees up other chips to do a bit more work, while (hopefully) being easier to optimize for. Because I don't think Xenoblade 3 got that TAA working as well as that so they could do all that cool stuff without some serious blood, sweat, and tears, regardless of their technical acumen. (Also, iirc they got the inspiration to use that TAA from some GDC talks from Battlefield devs! Never underestimate just how much attention Nintendo teams give AAA developers.) [Edit to add] That's definitely the more optimistic view though, since I definitely do agree that current AAA game development is pushing into highly unsustainable territory, one that no amount of nifty tech can get them out of. Unfortunately, until things change with exec and investor incentives, I don't know how things are going to get better. Especially since the same economic forces screwing over AAA developers are also making it harder and harder for indie devs to get funding as well, which... yeah, I'm cynical about the view I've seen that indie devs will save the industry because of that. [End edit.] And setting aside the software side, I was mostly commenting on the hardware economics there! Anything that gets better (or at least, decent) looking end images while reducing hardware price and power draw is going to be a positive, especially when it comes to handhelds with the upcoming Switch 2 (and the global impending climate crisis). Anyway, sorry for the walls of text y'all, this is just something I have a lot of fun thinking and learning and talking about! |
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Wack Sage
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Never heard of this but after a quick look I would probably assume people wouldn't be into the PS1-style graphics. Lots of modern gamers tend to think any game older than a few years needs an Ultra HD Widescreen Remaster or full on remake. Not surprising retro looking games aren't more popular. I prefer sprites over low-poly models myself. It's also why I didn't care for Dread much despite liking 2D Metroids. I'd rather have a new 2D Metroid that looks like Super/Zero Mission/Fusion. 3D 2D games have never been very appealing to me aesthetically. It's also why I liked Wonder which felt like a breath of fresh air after so many NSMB games. |
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AiddonValentine
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Man, you can clearly tell Sony thought these past few weeks were going to be smash hit after smash hit only to get ONE big headline with Astro Bot. Meanwhile, Concord was an instant industry laughingstock and the PS5 Pro is a $700 monument to the death of Moore's Law. If it takes an extra $200 to show microscopic improvements, you have a problem. I mostly feel this is the end result of increasingly pandering to an extremely vocal but ultimately tiny slice of the audience in tech obsessives who think frames and resolution are the only way to evaluate video games. It leads to problems.
With MS having dug itself into a $70 billion hole and Sony stumbling around drunkenly, I get the feeling Nintendo is like "Jesus, announcing our next system almost seems unfair. Want us to hold back on a couple game announcements so it doesn't come off like rubbing it in?" It's coming off like a reverse 1994, all we need is Nintendo saying "$399" at the reveal and the parallels are complete. As for Astro Bot, I agree in that it's more of an example of how Sony has been very halfhearted when it comes to building a first party lineup. They got too used to 3rd parties carrying the weight for them during the PS1 and PS2 days, ramped up a bit during the PS3, and then went back to relying on third parties for the PS4. And considering how mercenary 3rd parties and consumers are, that's not a good thing. Hopefully Astro Bot helps with moving Sony from the Sad Dad games |
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Issac Sarrowtail
Posts: 101 |
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Personally, I would like to see that but yeah. I would be very careful of pushing out Astro into everything you can. You run into the Pokemon problem if you do, in that you push so hard that you saturate the market. The reason that The Pokemon Company exists is to keep that at a minimum, which has other issues but it's been rather effective (Har, har) at that.
Yeah, that seems to be a major issue these days. Getting the word out that you are doing a thing is hard. It's always been hard for an indie project but since the pandemic, it's only gotten worse. Hell, it's effecting publishers just as much. Look at it like this, SIE puts out a State of Play... their little Direct thing, and it's kind of a void. Sure you get a lot of games but most them are just a technical showcase at best. Then the buzz afterwards isn't long, if there is one. Compared to Nintendo Directs.... any Nintendo Direct, the main ones, Indie World, Partner Showcases. Yeah, it is a BIG draw every single time that Nintendo announces that they are doing one and not just for Gamers, far from it. This article makes mention of the MarvelVs. Collection. Guess where that was announced first.... sure it's multi-platform, but whom got to blow that horn. Here is a hint: It wasn't SIE, which is even more egregious when you realize that they OWN EVO, THE fighting game tournament with seats filled with fans of the what is in the collection. Why did Capcom do that? Because Capcom NEEDS casuals... Valve doesn't really court them, SIE definitely doesn't, Xbox... bless them, they do try, but what happened to Tango Gameworks is them trying. Which isn't great. But casuals are Nintendo's bread and butter, they need them because without them.... Nintendo can't make the money. They have a platform in the Switch that is marching about as high as the PS2. That doesn't happen on gamers alone. Even for a game as 'hardcore' as Marvel2, Capcom NEEDS casuals.... and they didn't do this once, but twice (with the Capcom Fighting Game Collection 2: with such beloved games like CVS2, the PowerStone series, Project Justice). I say this to point out that marketing in this age is VERY important and it just feels like a thing that is overlooked. And where you point that marketing is just as important. The price of not caring about that is what is happening to Pseudoregalia. Which is far from an isolated incident on Steam (and to be fair, the eShop has this problem too, the directs mitigate it but it still exists).
When it comes to plaformers, their is ALOT going on in the indie space. Nintendo and Valve gets the most of that at the moment, which is kind of the problem that I see. I mean, SIE could build a market where those games would thrive but they haven't and because of that, they are pretty low on the release list (especially outside of the US). Personally, I keep an eye on Inti Creates. They were basically handed the keys to Megaman since their involvement with the franchise (Zero and ZX, respectively), they are also rather good at metroidvina (the 8-bit Curse of the Moon games). They are also, incredibly weird... Gal Gun is their brainchild. Still, I want to see more of them.... right now, they seem to really, really like rhythm games. Their platformers are VERY, very good (they have only really faltered with one game: Might No. 9, and that is by no means their fault), they might need to hire a writer tho.
To be blunt, it's been a hard year. Astro Bot seem to be a critical darling at the moment but I do question it's survival in this hard environment. I wish Team ASOBI well, they reserve a win.
Sure, I don't know. I have just seen alot of what DLSS3 and FSR3.1 can do done and honestly, it's not been that impressive. Hell, DLSS2 does have it's issues even after the update and FSR2.2... we don't talk about that. It still just catches me as something that is more of an add-on plus you are going to have to excuse me when I massively doubt Nvidia when they have basically created a black box to plug into (DLSS), and call that Open-source.
That is also part of the problem, I mean for PC that might not be as big of an issue but the Switch is a portable, first and foremost. It has a battery. Watts are at a premium. They have always been at a premium in any portable device, since the Game boy days till now. And the PC Handhelds run headlong into that. So I get them using TAA everywhere in that game when it comes to anti-aliasing because of how long it has been proven and how little energy that it takes to do it with.
Except for one glaring issue, "It has a battery. Watts are at a premium." DLSS, good as it might be, is very power hungry. It relies on Tensor Cores, they do a ton of floating (decimals) math. Floating math is ALWAYS costly, you can reduce that cost but that is something that you have to engineer out of and Nvidia is actually bad at that.
I am not saying that the scaliers don't have a place but having sat in technology for a LONG time, I come to a realization. All this Technology mean absolutely nothing if the product itself isn't good. Over time, I have seen alot with gamers and one thing that bugs me is this. Games should be fun, they are entertainment at it's core. Should it be fun 100% of the time? No but at the end of any game, one could feel content at the very least. As I said before, what Nintendo does isn't magic. The fact that there are many (not you) that think that the Pro has any meaning at all to the games that they play misses the core issue that many have with the thing.... It doesn't make the games any better, just more pretty (and barely at that). As much at those folks think that dev's might use the extra CPU power, they won't... they got 40+ million mouths to feed and not piss off. The graphical improvements to any game are so (to quote this article) minuscule that they need a side by side comparison to be shown. If there is anything that SIE has show with the PS5 Pro it is this... they are tone deaf. They have the numbers too, %75 of players choose performance mode when given the choice because the game has to WORK at the very least. So then they spend all of their time with this PSSR solution than just, letting folks get more games that work.
I am not happy at that myself and honestly, I have been a little more worried these days. It feels like the industry it condensing to two choices outright: Nintendo Co Ltd. and Valve Corporation. Companies that have, historically, avoided each other. If I am right, then this is going to be bad for the industry as a whole, and indie is going to be pinched pretty badly for this. I will have to agree with you, Indie will not be the savour that we have been told it is. If the industry isn't looking hot, they are an integral part of it and will suffer for that. It has been getting a bit better but as that is happening, Mircosoft is still swinging that ax.... 600 jobs last Friday. I think my biggest worry is Valve. Nintendo, we all know. We have seen several times when and how ruthless Nintendo is: Very, as it turns out. Which isn't new, Nintendo has always been somewhat aggressive to protect what it thinks is it's owns. Valve... I could not tell you, because the company is just about as opaque as Nintendo is. The difference being that Nintendo is a lot more active, Valve.... they are quiet about it. As much as the gaming community heap Gabe Newell with praise, you have to wonder what happens when that good will it tapped dry.
I will be honest, when it comes to engineering.... I want to close the gap in the power delta between wattage and compute. AMD has been getting this hint but PC gamers will not like it (and have already voiced their displeasure with Zen 5), because it will mean performance will not have a yearly cadence but the power budget will lower. If I am to take much stock in the rumours around the "Switch 2"(and given the "Switch Pro" fiasco, you are going to have to excuse my heavy skepticism), Nintendo seem to have clued into that. I do know that the company cares a ton about the price-point and, in this economy, that is very good because as we have seen, it's not that hard to missread the room.
Anyways, if you have more to say/ask, I welcome it. Last edited by Issac Sarrowtail on Fri Sep 13, 2024 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Doubleclouder
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This is what people need to wait for. Unless Astro Bot has good sales then all the praise it's getting won't mean anything if it doesn't pull in the money for companies to care. It could just end up being another Knack. I don't know anything about Concord other than it possibly has the worst character designs I have ever seen in a video game. I'm not surprised it wasn't well received and became such a laughing stock on the internet. I see no reason to get a PS5 Pro at the moment but I also never got a PS4 Pro either. I never saw the point of incremental upgrades. Especially not for the price they are asking. It feels like a repeat of the infamous PS3 price reveal. |
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whiskeyii
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Weirdly I'm kind of in the reverse boat; I never got a PS3, so I got a PS4 Pro, and wound up getting a reasonably priced PS5 through my phone plan (which I had planned to buy anyways, so it all worked out.) I might be in the minority here, but there are some games I just prefer to play on console vs my PC. If I have an interest in modding the game or if there's a social/online aspect, it goes on PC. Otherwise, I'll opt for console. But I've pretty much snapped up all the console exclusives I'd planned to play someday, so...I guess it kinda balanced itself out in the end? |
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