Forum - View topicMonster (TV) (w/ index).
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Gina Szanboti
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Post contains spoilers if you haven't seen the series; none if you've been watching Syfy's broadcast.
Nina's research had led through a string of murders to Margot Langer's death. So she was in the library researching the same thing as Lotte, and Lotte noticed her because she was there every day and she was very beautiful, at a time when Lotte was feeling envious of beautiful girls. Hence, she struck up a conversation with her.
The coincidence here is that Margot hooked up with someone Johann was already interested in. I think he'd been following Schuwald's movements because of his financial power (and possibly some dealings with Johann's illicit bank, or maybe just some competition with it). Margot apparently also serviced some players in Johann's bank, though it's not clear if that was how she met Johann, or if after meeting him, she provided her services to his clients on his behalf. At any rate, I believe he targeted her because his own research revealed her intimate and enduring connection to Schuwald. But judging from her letter to Johann's mother, I think that she was the one to reveal her connection to Anna (the mother). He reminded her of her own lost son Karl, and she lived with him and undoubtedly confided in him, so he probably recognized his mother in her story (and these conversations are surely how he knew Karl had proof he was Schuwald's son - he may even have known exactly what the proof was).
Again, given that both were researching the same thing, it was inevitable that they would meet. The inevitable meeting just happened to occur when Tenma needed it most. :) But regarding the topic of the thread, I do think there are many subtle suggestions that there's something supernatural going on here, from the Revelation opening quote, to the very last image of the series. However, it's so subtle that any viewer disinclined to see it that way never has to. :) |
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manifestation
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@Dorcas_Aurelia
Alright alright you win. It makes sense that people after the same thing will run into each other but to me it just seems a little too lucky. But it makes sense. |
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Fortis28
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Hi, my theory:
[SPOILERS] I Think that the story goes off of the idea that if you save or help someone, and that person hurts or does something bad, does that make you just as responsible? Or i guess in a general way, if we help someone are we hurting someone else? Another theme is how good people can become monsters? Think about it like this Tenma saved Johan, and Johan killed a lot of people, is Tenma now responsible for Johan's actions? And when Tenma saved Johan he let the another man, the Mayor, die. An example of how good people can become monsters is how Johan operated, his Modus operandi, he hardly ever acts directly when he kills people, but he sets up the circumstances to have them be killed or traumatized. In fact half of the time Johan isn't seemingly trying to hurt the person, quite the opposite, he seems like he is trying to "help" them. However, he sets up a chance for them to be traumatized or killed, simply by granting their desires. An example of this is the little boy who is looking for his mother in episode 49, and Johan points him to where she was, a red light district in the nastiest part of town. The little boy is so distraught that he nearly kills himself. In these circumstances we find that Johan isn't the "monster" but a catalyst for other peoples intentions, twisting the best intentions to turn out horrible. All the while he is using what he can to slowly grow in power, just like the book in the show "The Nameless Monster". When Tenma is chasing Johan throughout the series you'll also notice that his attitude and actions get darker and he ends up shooting people, this also shows how Johan brings out good people's inner "monster". |
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MYAOI
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Hi everyone,
this is my first post here! It's a great forum! I apologize for posting about an old anime, but I felt the need to share something about it. I'm quite a big fan of psychological thillers, but I somehow skipped the vision of Naoki Urasawa's "Monster" for years, without knowing that it is a jewel. A few days ago I decided to give it a try, finishing it in state of addiction. Then I searched around on the web to read more about it, but I felt disappointed from sites or threads misrepresenting the story and its meaning. I do agree that this anime is complex, but the story was built as a fine mechanism that it doesn't lead to an open ending. In the section Manga I found this thread: In the section Anime I found this thread: they are quite old, so I avoided necroposting. Moreover the opinions are posted without stating which layer they are focusing to, so the new discussion would lead to confusion. Just from a basic analysis I would say that this anime is made at least by three superposed layers: - the story told (what the audience sees) - the real events (what the audience understands through reasoning) - the moral (an additional message for younger audience) each layer has its own plot, with its own meaning. If this work were a paper packed gift, the told story would be the paper, the real story would be the gift inside, the moral would be the decorative texture on the paper. Wouldn't look funny to see a boy receiving a paper packed gift, with him not opening it, not knowing that the gift is not the decorative paper, but its content? 
Should you know a thread or a site where this analysis has been done, please let me know. Otherwise I will post it here for comments. I'll wait for a feedback. Meanwhile I'll start editing what I noted down, hoping that it will be appreciated. bye o/ N. |
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MYAOI
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I start posting some notes formatted. Everything from now on is a ***SPOILER***, targeted to those who completed the viewing. Thus I'd avoid the Spoiler tag.
Although I'm positive that every statement here below written could be proven by facts or deductions, please remind that the whole relation is my personal understanding, not yet checked or approved by anyone. Any comment or question is welcome to spot errors and revise the text. To make some order in the reading, I'll follow this table of contents: 1- LAYERS OF THE STORY 2- THE TRUTH? THE REAL MONSTER? 3- THREE PLOTS FOR ONE STORY - Metaphorical Plot - Subjective Plot - Analogic Plot 4- IN-DEPTH COMMENTS (if necessary for adding Q/A) Note: - I'm not a native english speaker, so I apologize for my grammar errors. I'm not Japanese, so I apologize for any cultural misunderstanding. - I will make a quick review of the plot, not a punctual one. The reader is requested to know the facts and the characters. |
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MYAOI
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1- LAYERS OF THE STORY ( **SPOILERS**)
This work piece has different layers. It is common in the good pieces of literature, that feature a second key for the interpretation of the story. I found three layer who coexist and integrate making the story more realistic and deep in the description of human feeling. Also it becomes suitable for different targets of audience, being the story deeper, as deeper is the viewer. Subjective plot - It is the superficial layer prepared for the viewer. It shows the events in a limited third person point of view. Analogic plot - It is the deeper story understood through the use of analogies. It is the real message of the author. It's the gift inside the envelope. The real story unfiltered, rebuilt from reasoning. Metaphorical plot - It is a simpler interpretation made with allegorical figures and canonical elements. It plays with the meaning of "monster" and "name", like the book Obluda. It includes the simpler message, the moral. In the subjective layer the information is filtered by the mind of the characters, that is partial and subjective. The viewer see what the character believes. The viewer has to collect the partial information and compose the picture bit by bit as a puzzle. By the final episode, the viewer has collected all the necessary pieces to see the whole picture: the ending and solution of the mistery. Some pieces are missing or left over by the author, but it is not disturbing. The nice image is clear. What is disturbing in this anime is that the viewer has almost completed the puzzle in the last episode, but inserting the last piece he finds that it doesn't fit. WTF! Why the author made such a disappointing ending!! Why in a such perfect, studied and elaborated story the last piece doesn't fit. Could it be that it was intended? Could it be that disassembling the puzzle and starting from the last piece, fitting back all the other pieces, the mistery is solved with a different solution? The viewer shivers while completing his new puzzle, showing the creepy face of the real monster. Proof of this statement is that all the pieces look to be accurately made and trimmed to fit two solution. The second solution has to be derived analysing each piece of information looking for analogous meaning, to retrieve the raw information that was censored by the subjective point of view. In addition to the deeper layer, the story is supported with a metaphorical layer that helps the younger viewer to understand the moral that adorns the story. The moral is that: "all lives have equal value". The methaphorical figure, presented in the fictional book Obluda, is that of the monster, who represents the vices (hate, envy, greed, ...). The humans in the tale who grow such feeling inside become stronger, but end completely devoured, destroyng themselves and who is around. The tale inside the story helps the viewer to associate the characters to some roles in a fable: Tenma is the virtuous hero, Johan is the prince tranformed in a monster, Nina is the princess raised as a humble girl... or such. In this way the actions, duties, feelings, the good one and the bad one, are already familiar to the viewer. Being japanese, Tenma as a canonical hero is expected to honor the well know codes of the "Way of the warrior" (Bushido) summarized in: 1) Integrity - Believe in justice and be always honest to the others 2) Respect - Be strong but don't be cruel, even with your enemy. Respect all the lives. 3) Courage - Never hide. Be the first to take action, but not blindly. Face the risk. 4) Honour - Always judge your actions to respect your honor and character 5) Benevolence - Use your training and power to help who is in need 6) Sincerity - Have only one word. If you say that you will do an action, you are committed to it. 7) Duty - Be the one responsible for all your actions and all their consequences The codes of Duty and Respect give to the younger viewer a convenient answer to the questions why Tenma feels responsible for Johan's deeds and why he cannot simply pull the trigger to clean his conscience. It's an easy answer for his infinite sadness: either killing him or not killing him, one ethical code is broken. Giving many convenient answers on the characters' feelings and actions, the metaphorical level plays an important role in masking the missing pieces of the told story. (It fits also my example of the paper packed gift: the decorative texture on the paper masks the real shape of the packed object). In the fables it is simple to state who is the good one, who is the bad one. In a more realistic story the characters are all humans who make mistakes. A brief plot for the three ways of reading the story is presented below, after the explanation of the real monster. 2- THE TRUTH? THE REAL MONSTER? (**SPOILERS**) Could it be that Johan is not the monster, as the metaphorical plot lead us to believe? What is wrong with this answer? The author himself tells us that this is not the correct answer. The ending does not fit well, more questions arise, for example: - What are the names of the twins? Why it cannot be revealed? - What was deleted from the tape? Why bothering to delete only a part, instead of simply destroying it? - Is a vision of Johan what Tenma sees in the hospital at the end? - Why does Johan disappear? Is the story unfinished? - What is the meaning of the empty bed with the spring breeze moving the curtains??? This last image is the key. It is the unfitting piece of the puzzle. Let's try to... isolate this piece, keep it for true and start building the puzzle from this point. Let's try to assume that.. Johan never existed! That he was a projected image of the disturbed mind of Nina! Suddenly, as a domino flashback, all the memories mechanically memorized in our brain scatter and reposition convulsively to make sense: - Nina being always the one with the gun in hand, after all the murders. Nina being strong in martial arts and use of weapons. - Nina eventually pointing the gun to herself, while a moment earlier she was pointing to Johan - in Ruhenheim, Tenma sitting in a silent dead state with Nina, just after Johan was shot - at the hospital, the child with a bullet in the head who is actually a girl (with shaved head for the operation!) - the last scenes, where the person in the bed is actually Nina! She has short hair growing after the shaving. Look at the window closed! (winter?) - the following scene of the empty bed when Nina left the hospital. Look at the window open! (spring time). - the scene of Nina strangling Dr.Gillen during a psychiatric session saying that her name was not Nina (...but Johan!) - Nina asking to go to Reinheim and Dr.Reichwein giving as condition the support of the psychiatrist and prohibiting her to carry gun! - Nina being present to all the murdering scenes (Nina or her henchmen) - Nina going to visit Suk's mother and her later comment that the girl was actually a man. She recorded over the tape in her presence imitating the male voice. - Tenma being unable to pull the trigger, because he was actually pointing the gun to a 20 year old girl suffering a mental disorder, and however desperately following her everywhere in search of a solution. - The name of the twins not revealed (being it "Anna"... and probably another female name. Identycal twins are monozygotic and typically female-female. Science notions must be applied because the mother "studied in the same school of Mendel") - Viera walking around in Prague with her only daughter - the last episode called "The Real Monster" where the final hint is given to the viewer The one and only picture combining perfectly all these pieces shows Nina, that is "Anna", being the killer. The monster with a multiple personality disorder. The anime as it is watched uses a limited point of view, filtered from the perspective of Nina, unaware of her mental disorder and lacking of the memories memorized by the personality Johan. The viewer was cheated, assuming that the point of view was objective. In facts the told story can be considered true, but keeping in mind that the physical representation of Johan is often used as a metaphorical aid, like the figure of the monster in the book Obluda. |
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MYAOI
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3- THREE PLOTS FOR ONE STORY (**SPOILERS**)
To explain in words how the three layers tell the same story filtered by different eyes, with different message, I report here the three plots. This narration is not very punctual and detailed, because I wanted to stick to the key elements (and I wrote it quickly). All the text is my interpretation, so it might contain errors, however as far as I could see, every sentence is validated with facts or hidden hints presented in the story. I feel that a viewer re-watching the series after understanding the analogic plot would be amazed realizing how ingenious the author was planning this construction. THE METAPHORICAL PLOT The story develops with a strong reference with the picture book Obluda, that gives the basic allegorical messages to understand a simpler version of the story. "The hate, revenge, envy, hunger for success are monsters. If you let these feelings come inside you, they transform you into a monster. A monster generates other monsters. These monsters inside make you feel more powerful, but actually they destroy you and everybody around you" The story is about two unfortunate children, born without a name, subject of genetic experiments of a secret Czech organization. Their father was killed, trying to oppose. Their mother grew obsessive thoughts of revenge against the boss of the organization, Franz Bonaparta, who was like a heartless monster. This feeling made herself become a monster, transferring the hate to her children. In particular the boy was affected by the situation, feeling to be unwanted by his mother. Living in a lonely, loveless environment he slowly became a monster. His only link with his humanity remained for the love for his sister and his duty to protect her. They escaped from the organization, but eventually got caught in Germany. Being poor children, without a name and a family, they were transferred to orphanotrophies, facing hard times. The monster inside the boy grew more powerful, spreading the hate around him and causing murders, up to the destruction of his orphanotrophy. His infectious power contaminated also his sister on one occasion, making her shoot at him, to revenge the last murder made by Johan. She felt terribly sorry for this. Johan could have died for the accident, but at the hospital the good Dr.Tenma succesfully saves his life. Ironic was that he saved the life of a monster. Johan learns that Dr.Tenma felt anger for his boss and acted with a devilish favour, killing him and two other doctors with poison. Years later, when Tenma realizes that he was responsible for saving the life of that monster and for his following murders, he committs his life to the search for the young guy, to stop it. He has the strict right moral values of a hero and refuses to kill him. This behaviour saves him from becoming a monster. The young guy instead often teases him to shoot, pointing the finger to his own head, to complete the transformation in a hateful monster and finalize his plan of devouring everybody, making a total doom around him. With the help of the girl, Tenma manages to stop the monster. The girl forgives the brother for the killing of their adoptive parents. Tenma refuses to shoot, keeping his feelings. The monster fails before those two humans, who show love for him. The monster vanishes, leaving the young guy. To close also his past, Tenma finds the mother of the twins, to ask what she felt for the children and also learns their names. Heard that her mother actually loved the children and finally receiveing their names, the twins start their new happy life. THE SUBJECTIVE PLOT It's the story of two twins, born as a result of an exceptional selection of the smartest member of the elite class, to be a sample of the superior race. They were living with her mother Anna in Prague, under the control of a secret Czech organization. Their father tried to oppose and was killed. This family was escaped from the organization. To protect the children, Anna disguised the boy as a girl, walking in the town with one child at a time, pretending to have only one daughter. Eventually she was uncovered by Franz Bonaparta, the boss behind the experiments at the Red Rose Mansion and author of the book Obluda. He forcedly took one of the children from the mother. The mother chose to leave the girl in his hands, holding the boy. She was growing the hope that the boy could finally revenge her, killing Bonaparta. Anna was kept for weeks in the mansion, subject of experiments and probably abused. With the time Bonaparta started to feel love for Anna and their children, so he decided to quit everything. He poisoned his partners and let the girl escape from the horrors of Prague. The children leave the mother, but they are caught on the border by General Wolf and took to Germany. Wolf gives to the boy the name Johan, as the character of the book he was holding. The children were assigned to different orphanotrophies. For Johan the most cruel, 511 Kinderheim, where cruel experiments made him more determined to kill everybody could be a treat for his and her sister's life. Signs of a split of personality became evident in Yohan, who grew a personality who identified itself with the character of the book. After a murdering in the orphanotrophy, lead by Yohan, the two children are adopted by the Lieberts, a German family. The girl was named Anna. Bonaparta knew about the adoption and came to visit the children. Yohan decided again to flee with Anna, removing the traces and killing the parents. Anna discovered the murder and desperately pointed the gun towards Yohan. His twisted personality realized that it was a good solution for Anna's new future, erasing Yohan who is a great link with the past. Also it was a solution similar to the ending of Obluda, leaving only one monster alive, and nobody who knew his name. She pulls the trigger, but Yohan doesn't die. Recovered at the hospital, Dr.Tenma saves his life. Dr.Tenma is the best doctor in the hospital, but his career is obstacled by his boss. As a devilish favour, Yohan secretely kills by poison his boss and two other doctors, opening the path for Tenma's career. The children eascape and traces are lost for years. Several years later Yohan appears in front of Tenma, killing one of his patient. Then Tenma follows his traces up to the new adoptive family of the girl, here called Nina. With the help of two accomplices of Johan, the parents and the witnesses are killed. Tenma becomes a fugitive from the police, going after Johan, to understand the truth and to stop him. Nina and many characters join the investigtion. He continually follows him, with the intention of killing him, but never resolves to pull the trigger. Even Nina, at times is seen pointing the gun at him, but never killing him. To recover her memories Nina begins a psychiatric therapy. Meanwhile Johan continues to pull the strings to complete his plan. With the help of an ex child from 511 Kinderheim, Roberto, and some right-wing extremists, Johan manages to set up the final stage of his plan to murder Bonaparta and kill all the people in his town, Ruhenheim. The mass murdering takes place, but it is interrupted thanks to the good guys. The end comes with Nina, Yohan, Tenma and the old Bonaparta face to face. Roberto wounded kills the old man, then dies. The twisted Yohan teases Tenma to kill him, to fulfill his plan of killing all the past friends and enemies who knew the children, and put smoke around the fact that Yohan was the culprit. (Dr.Tenma was already a fugitive accused for the past murders. He blamed Yohan as the culprit. If Tenma was killed, Yohan could be the suspect for the police, starting other investigations over the children. Instead, if Yohan was killed by Tenma, he would be definitely proven guilty as a mad killer of an innocent boy, closing the case and leaving Anna live a peaceful life). Anna asks Tema not to shoot, because she understand his plan and wants to forgive him. As a last attempt, Yohan points the gun towards Wim, a boy, to force Tenma to shoot his gun. Tenma still hesitates. The drunk father of Wim arrives there with a gun in his hand. In panic he shoots at Yohan, believing to see him as a biblical monster. Tenma is speechless, with Nina on his side, but soon after he learns that he can be saved. Trembles, hesitates, then Nina repeats her last words. He performs the operation saving his life. The story ends showing Yohan completely rehabilitated from the brain surgery. In the past Yohan suffered for a sad memory, where he believed that her mother didn't love him and wanted to send him away with Bonaparta. Tenma wanted to clear this fact looking for his mother. Speaking with her he learns the truth and also the real names of the children. He reveals finally to Yohan that her mother loved him, relieving him from the pain. He leaves the hospital to start a new live. Also Anna is doing well, going on with her studies. THE ANALOGIC PLOT It's the story of Anna, born as a result of an exceptional selection of the smartest member of the elite class, to be a sample of the superior race. She had a twin sister, who died sometime after the birth. She was living with her mother Viera in Prague, under the control of a secret Czech organization. His father tried to oppose and was killed. The loneliness, lack of mother love and the broken link with her twin sister made her grew in her mind an imaginary sister, a second personality, acknowledged also by Franz Bonaparta, the boss behind the experiments at the Red Rose Mansion and author of the book Obluda. His reading seminars at the Mansion were aimed at molding the personality of selected children to make them superior. Side effect of the experiment were the attachment to the book read, the violent behaviour and suicidal tendency. Bonaparta took also Anna to the seminars. She had two personalities, so he took only one, leaving the other. He managed to mold only one personality, creating Johan, deeply connected to the book Obluda. The personality Johan grew so powerful to control Bonaparta's mind, making him to put an end to the experiments, poison his partners and let the girl escape from the horrors of Prague. She is eventually caught on the border by General Wolf and took to Germany, going through different orphanotrophies, other abuses, experiments and adoptions. At 511 Kinderheim, cruel experiments deleted her memory, making her lose the awareness of her personalities and split her memories in pieces. Her second personality named Johan grows his identification with the character of Obluda and feels afraid of forgetting the personality Anna. A series of deaths follows the girl in each place she settles, forcing her to continually move on. Finally Anna realizes that the homicides are done by her second personality Johan. He was killing everybody who learned about his existance, not to leave anyone who could call his name, like in Obluda. When she awoke with the gun in hand after the killing of adoptive parents, she realized the truth and tried to commit suicide. Recovered at the hospital, Dr.Tenma saves her life. Three doctors want to take pictures of her, for the media. They die by poison candies set by Johan. The girl escapes and traces are lost for years. Several years later Anna appears in front of Tenma, disguised as a male, killing one of his patient. Investigating about his identity Tenma finds the traces of the girl, believed his sister, up to the new adoptive family of the girl, here called Nina. With the help of two accomplices of Johan, the parents and the witnesses are killed. Tenma becomes a fugitive from the police, going after Johan, to understand the truth and to stop him. Nina and many characters join the investigtion. Tenma begins understanding the truth after a message left by Johan on a water tower, implying that he was the result of a split of personality. He continually follows her, ready to stop her crimes, but never resolves to pull the trigger. Even Nina, at times is seen pointing the gun at herself, without managing to suicide herself. To recover her memories Nina begins a psychiatric therapy. Meanwhile, as Johan, continues to pull the strings to complete his plan. With the help of an ex child from 511 Kinderheim, Roberto, and some right-wing extremists, Johan manages to set up the final stage of his plan to murder Bonaparta and kill all the people in his town, Ruhenheim. The mass murdering takes place, but it is interrupted thanks to the good guys. The end comes with Nina/Yohan, Tenma and the old Bonaparta face to face. Roberto wounded kills the old man, then dies. Yohan teases Tenma, pointing the finger to his own head (Anna's), as if saying "if you want to kill Yohan, he is here, in the brain". Anna asks Tema not to shoot, because she wanted to forgive him. As a last attempt, Yohan points the gun towards Wim, a boy, to force Tenma to shoot his gun. Tenma still hesitates. The drunk father of Wim arrives there with a gun in his hand. In panic he shoots at the girl's head, recognizing her face ("a monster"). Tenma is struck by the death of Nina, but soon after he learns that she can be saved. Trembles, hesitates, then reminds her last words. He performs the operation saving her life. The story ends showing Anna/Nina completely rehabilitated, both from the psychiatric therapy and the brain surgery, going on with her studies. Tenma reveals to still suffer from the brainwashing attack inflicted by Yohan, who shared with him his pain. I didn't reported here all the deductions and references because of the amount of time and space required. I will prepare soon an argumentation just for the most controversial topics. I will write also a note on the possibily that this work could have even a fourth layer. I didn't list it here because it can't be prove, being its story outside the story. Meanwhile, should you have comments, questions or doubt, I will do my best to reply. |
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nobahn
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MYAOI--
1st of all, welcome to these fora!  
2nd of all, (and I don't mean to unduly pressure you) there's an introduction thread here where you can introduce yourself!  (just a thought)
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MYAOI
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4- IN DEPTH COMMENTS (**SPOILERS**)
I finish my notes collecting here some personal comments about the series and the controversial scenes. They are in random order. THE FOURTH LAYER - The reality I really feel that this series has a metaphysical layer, because it creates a link between the author and the viewer beyond the actual physical contact. This anime, this work, is not simply an entertaining product. There is more. It's a psychiatric session with the viewer being the patient: -The author (or the director, as you like) plays the role of Bonaparta, an experimental hypnotherapist -The anime (or manga) plays the role of the picture book Obluda (in czech Obluda=Monster) Bonaparta wrote the picture book Obluda, as the author wrote the manga Monster -The viewer plays the role of the subject of the experiment, that is Nina In all the series the point of view is 3rd person, except for the most emotional flashback of Nina that are in 1st person. Most of the 3rd person point of view is eventually filtered by the point of view of Nina (who imagines the existance of Yohan) -the state of immersion watching the anime is analogous to an hypnotic trance, where images and information is transmitted to the viewer's brain in an altered state of awareness "A hypnotic trance is not therapeutic in and of itself, but specific suggestions and images fed to clients in a trance can profoundly alter their behavior. As they rehearse the new ways they want to think and feel, they lay the groundwork for changes in their future actions..." Wiki -The viewer watches the whole story up to the last scenes believing to watch the story from the point of view of the heroes, the good ones, fighting the monster. Through the use of the 1st person point of view the viewer is even forced to identify himself with Nina, being close to share her feelings. -During the trance the patience recalls or learns new memories under the control of the doctor Watching the anime the unaware viewer is fed with elaborate plots and emotional memories (It could be be represented metaphorically by Nina in the Red Rose Mansion, kept in the dark for weeks, fed by elaborate food... but it could be only a coincidence) -Than the doctor snaps the fingers, and the patient returns to the consciousness remembering all he has learned The author snaps the fingers at the last images of the story, while giving the hint of who is the real monster. The viewer awakens literally opening his eyes that he has lived the whole adventure as the monster. The author made you become the monster! It's the experiment of Bonaparta taken into reality Trivia: - This kind of experiment is not new. It was done by the Dream Theater back in 1999 spoiler[The album Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory follows the plot of a psychiatric session and the listener identifies with the main character. It is definitely my favorite album.] - according to my experience Neon Genesis Evangelion (TV + EoE movie) was the first anime featuring a deep use of layers, including the analogical, theological and metaphysical. While the main character lives his evolution through metaphorical battles for the completion project, the viewer gets acquainted with the notions of the Kabbalah and is guided in a learning path towards his psychological improvement (eventually up to the vision of Keter). - I think that the name Johan actually is a pun, probably because it is spoken Yo-Ann. There is a kanji pronounced Yo that means "the rest of", thus making Johan sound like "the othe Ann" or "the Ann in excess". Ann=Anna. Just my 2 cents. o o o o o o o o o - THE BIRTH OF THE CHILDREN That fact around the birth of the twins are rather mixed and confusing. I believe that the author censored much information not to reveal the trick, leaving insufficient proofs to get a definite answer. I need to find and read the book "Another Monster" containing additional information on this story. Up to now I know only some rumors about one twin girl dead and a behaviour pretending that she was still alive. I will post or edit when I will read it. Facts - in the whole series it is repeated by everyone that the mother had two twin children. It is said so many times that it should be true. - The mother tried to escape, complicating the birth - Bonaparta came to visit the mother and made some live portrait drawings: One shows the mother with a big belly, reasonably related to having twins Another shows two twins in the same bed (but with a strange superposition of image: it could be actually the same child represented in two positions. Their dress is identical, while the mother in a following scene has two baby shirts in two different colors) One show the girl alone. (two girls were never depicted together) Another shows a closer image of boy (or girl with short hair) Later in the series many drawings of the so called Anna/Yohan couple were found. Bonaparta comments (copied from subs): "I Tried to draw a picture of the ideal twins [...] but I couldn't draw [...] I knew that it could neer exist" - The memory of the girl recalls her younger looking at her mother from the right position (she was holding her mother's right hand). The view of what is holding her mother's left hand is often hidden, shown only as the tip of a red ribbon, or shown in 3rd person point of view in the scene of the two girls close to the mother. Speculation. So far the possible solutions about the twin birth that I could think of are: 1) When the pregnant mother escaped from the hospital and gave birth to the twins out on the road, one child died. In the following scene Capek speaking of the "children" (kodomo-tachi) was referring generically to the children of the Eugenics program. The drawing of the two children is actually the same child drawn in two positions. The following scene of the mother with the two baby dresses in hand speaking about the names is actually referred to the period of early pregnancy. After the death of the child, the mother lost the sanity and started behaving like if the twin sister of Anna was alive, inducing also the girl to lose the sanity. (Possible, but based on speculation on Capek and Bonaparta, plus rumors from Another Monster) 2) The mother gave birth to two twin daughters. They are seen by Capek and drawn by Bonaparta.After some time one child dies (possible but there are no proofs in the Anime) 3) The mother gave birth to two twin daughters who lived together. The scene where one girl is snatched from the mother is real. The other girl remained with her mother, Anna went to the Red Rose Mansion. Went Anna returned back after the murdering, she saw her twin sister. For anger she put on fire the apartment. It is not know whether the twin sister is alive or was killed. The mother ask to Tenma if her children are alive (so she doesn't know or remember). (Possible, but there are no solid bases for this speculation) For lack of proofs on the latter, I would say that the first is the most plausible, even if more constructed. The sad music theme while fading on the twin birth on the road sounded like "someone is dead". The escape of the mother is just to explain the cause of death of on child, IMO. o o o o o o o o o - THE SCENE OF THE GIRL TAKEN FROM THE MOTHER This scene is actually a key element of the whole anime, but it is based on my speculation. The hints and hidden messages make sense to me giving the following explanation, coherent with the story. The two girls are actually the physical representation of the two personalities of Anna (Anna and her imaginary twin sister). When Bonaparta came to take a girl, was metaphorically taking a personality to transform with his seminar readings. The hint for this speculation is given by Bonaparta himself repeating slowly "Kore Wa... Jikken desu ... Kore wa... Jikken desu" literaly "This is... experiment", but with a great focus on the word "THIS". It would be as saying "THIS IS THE experiment". He starts the experiment to separate and mold one personality. Phisically Anna is the girl holding her mother's right hand. The point of view of the girl always look at the mother from her lower right position. Anna is indeed phisically taken to the Red Rose Mansion The following scene of Anna kept for weeks in a dark room could be the hint about how Bonaparta managed to transform one personality, leaving the other intact. Only one personality was in total black-out, while the other was awake learning from the seminars and becoming Johan. The body however remembered physical sensations as the eating of the food, the scratching of the roses. She awakened also when the experiment was finished, at the party and following murdering in the villa. When Anna returned home, her second personality, with evil smile and the book in her hands, said welcome to her, because they didn't speak for weeks. Now the personality was different, was changed into male. Johan presented his new self to Anna, metaphorically removing his female long wig. The girl remained probably alone, abandoned by the mother (it is not clear when the mother said the famous "you have to survive by yourself" but I believe it is just before the Red Rose Mansion, meaning "from now on you'll live separate lives") This would justify the memory of the girl at home always saying welcome but "the door would never open". Probably he waited her mother, but never came back. Eventually she put the apartment on fire, leaving for the Germany. o o o o o o o o o - THE MONSTER WITH SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS I don't have a solution for this metaphorical hint, but I would point my finger towards the portrait of Anna in the Red Rose Mansion facts: - we assume that the father of Wim shot to Anna/Nina (not Johan), according to the real story - Wim recognizes immediately Nina as the girl in the portraits in the Vampire House - the portrait of a woman identical to Anna in the Red Rose Mansion in the real life is that of the sovereign Maria Theresa - the analogy in the revelation makes the best considered as a representation of the king/kingdom - many biblical interpretations go around the horns and the heads, but there is general relation to the kingdoms - the reign of Maria Theresa counted around ten countries speculation: - as Wim did, also his father recognizes immediately Anna/Nina. Could it be that he was one of the children escaped from the mansion and remembered the portrait? - alternatively he could have seen a similar portrait in the Vampire house, but it is harder to make a reference to the beast. - being the interpretation of horns and heads controversial even in the reality, I would stick only to the general interpretation of the beast as the sovereign. o o o o o o o o o It's all for now. I wrote this mainly for myself, because I needed to clear and empty my mind. |
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nobahn
Subscriber Posts: 5150 |
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I have since removed the link and merged this thread with the official Monster thread topic. Instead of just constantly adding more separate threads to link to, it would be better to merge new threads to the series' Main Thread, which is where people should be posting. --willag 11Jan15 |
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st_owly
 Posts: 5234 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland |
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May I introduce you to the concept of a spoiler tag? If you type [*spoiler]your text here[*/spoiler] without the asterisks in the brackets, spoiler[this happens] It you do that for every paragraph it will make reading your posts a lot easier as people can just uncover the paragraph they're reading.
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11597 |
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10 years after the manga and 5 years after the anime, spoiler tags are like closing the barn door after the horse is out. Anyone worried about being spoiled will not be reading past **spoilers** to find a spoiler in all that text. That said, any spoilers from Another Monster should be hidden.
@MYAOI: I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that in fact Johan never existed and both Nina and the viewers were misled into believing he did? If so, that's a helluva lot more than "misleading," since dozens if not thousands of people have seen Johan and Nina together. They were on tv as children with their foster parents (and probably in newspapers too), the police and hospital staff, including Dr. Tenma, all saw them both together (or at least when one was gravely injured while the other wasn't, so no mistaking them if encountered separately only minutes apart), the taxi-driver they lived with described both of them to Rudy, the Fortners looked for Johan after he disappeared from their home, etc. There's no doubt that they both existed, unless all these people are as delusional as Wim's father. |
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MYAOI
Posts: 13 |
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@Gina
I will soon make a back check correcting typos and spoilers from Anothers Monster. Yes, I'm definitely stating that Johan never existed. I initially felt the same doubt about the children, being seen on TV, but rewatching the scene: - the children are together looked from one point of view (subjective) - few second later there is only Anna, Johan disappears (objective) - Johan is far. Nina looks for him and goes there - Then the children have a strange game and conversation. Johan tells here that all the acorns in their garden belong to her (as if he didn't count... or if they were the same person) It is like if the author says to the viewer:"Ok, I cheated you, but I also gave you the right vision. Then I gave you also one more hint." I commit myself in finding the situations where they are together finding the clues that explain the real meaning. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11597 |
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Why is the first subjective and the second objective? The idea that Johan didn't exist makes no sense in the face of all the objective evidence that he did (see previous examples). Nina would not have been sent to K511 because only boys were, and she was at the other orphanage, so it's not like she could have disguised herself as a boy to be simultaneously at K511. If she were only at the orphanage run by Erna Tietze, then no one would remember Johan from K511. Also, it's physically impossible for her to have been happily growing up with the Fortners while simultaneously founding and operating the underground Bank. Another Monster spoiler: spoiler[If only Nina existed, why did Bonaparta and Chapek arrange to bury 2 children and not just 1?] It already stretches my credulity to figure out how Johan commuted between the second Liebert family and Margot while stalking Nina. I'm sorry, but imagining Nina doing all that running all over Germany while swapping identities is beyond my breaking point.
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MYAOI
Posts: 13 |
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I apologize for adding the text in parenthesis without explaining that it was my proposed reading key. You can ignore those words subjective/objective, leaving the statements.
Interesting. I'm looking forward to reading it. P.S. I'm already re-watching from the first episode, noting and commenting the situations to confute the dichotomy. I will post soon
About the impossibility for one child to attend two orphanotrophies, I guess it could be hard to demonstrate it, or its opposite, unless some actual chronological references are given from the author. About the "male-only" orphanotrophy I will write a dedicated paragraph, together with the "male-only" readers of Schuwald/Schubert. |
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