Forum - View topicThe Mike Toole Show - Anime Gets Sloppy
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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No, it's not the same guy - 167 was Wakabayashi, this is Matsumoto. Matsumoto is actually more skilled than Wakabayashi and his stuff is even better. Do you really expect an animator like Norio Matsumoto, someone with lots of experience in the industry, to just randomly give someone a twisty neck for no reason? No, it's CLEARLY part of the overall motion and you're wrong that it's out of place: And now watch it in motion to see how it all comes together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAi03cX-nds (2:35) He does a twisty head motion instead of just moving his head normally to heighten the impact and speed of his fire breath attack. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11525 |
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I guess you missed the part of my post where I said it was noticeable to me. Since you were unable to notice it in motion, then I can see why it didn't bother you. Did the veteran animator you refer to personally draw every frame in that entire sequence? As Mike pointed out, that's happened before, but it's not the norm. So odd frames get in there without people noticing in the rush to air time. Are you saying that couldn't have happened in this case? Thank you sensei, but I do grasp that deformation can help the overall animated effect, in the same way that a filmed punch shows stupid-looking but real facial distortion when looked at frame by frame. I don't feel that's the case in this instance. And I'll say again that I still find the frame hilarious, regardless of the intent. Instruct me all you like with your pearls of wisdom, but you won't change my mind about it being funny. |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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I deleted that, made a new post that explained what I meant.
OF COURSE you're noticing it now that everyone is drawing attention to it, but a viewer normally wouldn't. The scene is really damned fluid and the drawings are carefully-chosen. The twisty frame goes very well with the motion that's being animated and heightens its impact. |
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someone_else
Posts: 1 |
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"I utterly disagree. Anime is a medium to tell interesting and entertaining stories. I shouldn't even notice the animation style, because that's not the important part. Animators are only there to facilitate the experience, not to show-boat and ruin suspension of disbelief by shoving the fact that this is a fictional piece of work in our faces."
You're watching anime wrong. If the visuals aren't nice the story isn't interesting. "Let me put it this way. Let's say you were three hundred pages into reading a novel. And then for no in-story reason the font suddenly changes to MS Mincho and the text size doubles and the kerning gets dicked around with, and the changes only last one chapter before switching back to what they were. Would you not find that irritating as hell? I know I would." That example is deliberately irritating. There is poetry that messes around with formatting in interesting ways, and it's cool because it's part of the medium. In any case, the analogue would be the style of prose, not the font size. The prose is what makes a book interesting. |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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I couldn't really figure out what dtm42 was saying or how to counter it, but you did a pretty good job. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11525 |
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Then I guess I'm not a normal viewer because I noticed it the first time I saw it on tv, before I'd seen the still shots, and had a wtf moment, but I didn't have it on tape (yes tape), couldn't go back and figure it out, and didn't care enough anyway, so I forgot about it until I ran across the still much later on. Which actually made it funnier. Yep, still funny. To me it's not fluid, because instead of just flinging his head back to his right to launch his flames, his head first tilts forward (never mind that no one's head turns like that unless they're an owl) and for me, that disrupts the sequence of motion, which is jarring. To me. YMMV. I'm done. |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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He didn't just normally tilt his head and instead did a twisting motion to give the attack more anticipation. It's not anatomically correct, so what? People's faces don't mutate like Pain's. People's skin doesn't stretch THAT much when punched. It's exaggeration.
It just saddened me that you picked two frames from one of the most well-animated sequences in that show to make your point. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Certainly if the visuals are distracting the story is hard to watch. But bad visuals don't make a story uninteresting. For most anime the visuals have nothing to do with the story. I can't believe anyone would even say that stories can only be interesting if the visuals are nice. I take it you don't watch many old anime.
So not themes, characters, plot, setting, or anything like that? Only the prose can make a book interesting? Last edited by dtm42 on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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uguu
Posts: 220 |
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I'd rather read a good book than have to suffer through something that looks like trash for the script.
He/she was saying that it's the style of prose that makes a book interesting, not the font size. He didn't say that it's the ONE THING that makes them interesting, but that it's a closer analogue to animation.
Oh hey, the typical "old things look bad because they are old, you only enjoy them for the writing!" argument that's always applied to video games! "Old-school video games are all about gameplay, not about graphics! It's not like they often had amazing art direction in spite of having less technology to work with, or anything deserving respect like that! Games like Yoshi's Island are only about gameplay!" "Old anime is all about writing - visuals don't matter, because it's old and often low budget, and nothing low budget can be truly good-looking in spite of its hurdles!" Except the former, while still ignorant, is actually >less< annoying than the latter because gameplay IS the core of video games. Meanwhile, visuals are the core of animation. Imagine how RIDICULOUS it would be if someone said "you only watch Citizen Kane for the script - it's old and black and white and has no special effects, so it doesn't matter how it looks!" I've been watching Ashita no Joe and it's low budget as hell. There's barely any movement and the artwork clearly had to be rushed most of the time. And yet, it's still very visually impressive - because the use of visuals is amazing. Even when it doesn't have a lot of frames or has to skimp on the details the expressiveness and visual inventiveness is there. Same goes for a crapload of other shows. The visuals are a HUGE part of why I watch 70s anime. http://i.imgur.com/2oxE1yE.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3whcfQ7.jpg http://i.imgur.com/cccGHqQ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xsVXk5V.jpg http://i.imgur.com/vKlpd8F.jpg http://i.imgur.com/iCeXXjt.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1EraFHg.jpg "For most anime the visuals have nothing to do with the story" - I don't even think so. But if that's the case then you're watching badly made crap. |
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Zhou-BR
Posts: 1457 |
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Yeah, there's another animation director on the show, Mamoru Hoshino, who's absolutely terrible at drawing and animating mouths. Still, Yashima makes him look good in comparison. |
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BigOnAnime
Encyclopedia Editor
Posts: 1241 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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So the way Naruto Shippuden episode 167 was animated was intentional? Interesting...
Even 3-4 years later and after reading this article I'm still not a fan of how that one was animated, most notably the Pain sequence mentioned in the article which can be seen in full below. http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/116/992/Naruto-quality-3.gif Call me shallow, but one of my biggest problems with that specific sequence is it's too off-model for my liking. One instance of QUALITY I'd like to mention is the entire second half of Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple episode 38. The first half of the episode looked fine, but then come the second half you had stuff like this. http://i.imgur.com/Ps33ntS.png http://i.imgur.com/vTbA0SC.png http://i.imgur.com/3VBhCxk.png Another which has been pointed out is Birdy the Mighty: Decode. One that's really interesting is near the end of season 2 during the fight between spoiler[Birdy and Nataru]. However I'm now thinking that one might have been intentional. |
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Myaow
Posts: 1068 |
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Excuse you, if you're trying to imply that old anime is anything but GORGEOUS you're gunna have to step down! Anyway, totally hating this animation vs story fight! It's wrong to try to divorce storytelling from animation. Sooo much of the story in anime/cartoons is conveyed through the animation, you can't really delineate where one ends and the other starts. If the artistry lacks power, the story loses so much of its potential meaning and depth! |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4732 |
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It's not that he has more detail...it's that the shot you posted looks nothing like Mugen. He's horrifically off-model there, and if I remember correctly Jin was even more so in that episode. You can't convince me for a moment that this was a stylistic choice, especially since it's in the second half of a two-parter; why in the world would any episodic series decide to get experimental halfway through something like that, when they could choose any other episode to do so? And again, this is coupled with the fact that the episode's animation looks extremely low-budget when compared to almost every other fight scene in the entire series. It sticks out like a sore thumb, and not in the "we meant to do this" way that Gurren-Lagann's infamous episode 4 did. |
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DangerMouse
Posts: 3990 |
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Great article, some great shares in the thread too, hadn't seen several of them before like the Aria one lol
I generally like the experimentation most of the time and also appreciate that they all go back and fix the actual unintentional mistakes for the DVD/BD when possible too.
Damn yeah, so many great animated moments in FMA in there. Those Bradley fights sampled in those sakuga collections for example were incredible and some great Milos scenes in there too. Cool info on Birdy, loved that show.
Last edited by DangerMouse on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Anti_Nadalista
Posts: 89 |
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Some people still don't get that Japanese animation is actually very similar to jazz or very Technical Progressive Metal with lots of tempo changes and time signatures. American animation is more like a pop song with a time signature of 4/4.
The great thing about anime is that you can have a cut animated by Toshiyuki Inoue in a very realistic way and the next one is done by Imaishi using Kanada's Style. Kyoani in another hand is a Studio were is very hard to tell animators apart because the animation in their shows is very consistent. |
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