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1st thought: hooray for reading something from Luci away from her My Space page!

Back on topic: I haven't watched the R1 FMP: TSR releases yet. Loved the original, & the dub of Fumoffu is fantastic (and Tiffany signed my Fumoffu box cover Saturday!).

I don't have a hard-line stance on subs/dubs; I like both. Some shows, I only like in Japanese, some only in English, & some I like in either. I will say that I'm as much a fan of the English voice actors as I am the medium itself; I'll often purchase & watch a series just to hear their performance.

First off, thanks to Luci for posting her own comments about this. VAs speaking up with their own thoughts and insights is something we don't see enough of around here, and I, at least, always appreciate it. (And I resolve one of these days to thank you and the others at ADV in person for doing Princess Tutu. If ever a series deserved more attention than it's gotten, it's that one.)

Now back to business.

Tony K. wrote:

I've listened to all three series' dubs and am thoroughly unimpressed to this day. In addition, the review does little to make me jump on the bandwagon. "Superb" and "surpass" just don't sit well with me. Why even have a Japanese track then, since it's utter bullplop compared to the likes of Chris "God" Patton and Luci "I'm better than Satsuki Yukino and can replace all and any of her roles, especially the Sonozaki sisters in what ADV will rename The Japanese Track of This Anime Sucks, So Let's Redo It With Such a Superb Performance That We Surpass Those Gimpy Seiyuu" Christian? Just fire every voice actor back in Japan and have the English track as the only option with Japanese subs for the next series in both countries.

Wow. I'm sorry we don't see eye-to-eye on this one, Tony, but I cannot agree with you. I hardly see all ADV dubs as being superior; most are just comparable in quality, and occasionally some are worse (This Ugly Yet Beautiful World immediately springs to mind). The same applies to English dubs in general. I'm sure if you did a survey of all my past reviews you'd find out that I've rated dubs worse than the Japanese originals several times as often as I've rated dubs better.

In this case, though, I've seen the English dub as clearly the better one ever since the first FMP series. I honestly have a hard time understanding how anyone could listen to both dubs and not see the English one as the better in the lead roles and some key supporting roles (especially Gates), so I have no intention of backing down on my own stance, either. To each his own, I guess.

Quote:

[To Lucy:]No personal offense meant.

Hmm, could've fooled me. But it did sound like you were trying to play nice in that follow-up post so I won't comment further.

To Ms. Christian: thanks for your comments. I'm always glad to hear (or in this case, read) from people in the industry. They should do so more often.

Not to beat a dead horse but thanks you to Luci for posting. Nice to see VA's mingling with us little people. Actually I've met her a few times and she is honestly in person very nice. Could be an act but I'll assume not and that she genuinely is nice. As for FMP, I still don't like it. Now here's a difference I draw for myself. I don't not like Luci or Chris's work period. I simply don't care for FMP. I think the show itself is a bit over done and just don't care for it much. I watched season 1 and Fumofuu and just watched my interest die a little more each volume. I'll try SR just to say I did but I don't expect much. That being said I also don't have a grudge against ADV because of a few bad dubs. You're not gonna like everything a person or company does so don't think you have to. There are several titles I think ADV has botched. On a side note if they botch up Oh My Goddess season 2 I WILL have to go to Houston and have a chat with Mr. Greenfield. You're on notice ADV Twisted Evil

Back on topic, I don't know why Tony has such a problem with ADV but that's ok. People have their own opinions and I don't fault him for his. I'm glad he could show some courtesy to Luci and her post and that shows, to me anyway, Tony can be fair. Now I"m not saying he, or anyone else should sell their first born child for a company, or burn it down for some bad dubs. I always try to give each title an open mind. If it sounds like a title I would like I try it out regardless of previous achievements or mistakes by the production company and voice actors. I may not like FMP and the Va job done in it but I love Nerima Daikon Brothers and the job Luci, Chris, Greg have done there. Props to Chris Ayres also for the directing job. After meeting him at Nekocon I know he was stoked about Nerima and so far a great job. I only hope others here will give titles a chance regardless of what you may think of the company or VA's that work there. I also hope that people don't start saying that all VA's suck or aren't real actors. They work hard and most do it on the side. With the exception of a few full timers most do it after their normal 9-5 job so they should get credit for it. Many put in time they could be spending with friends or family to work on the titles you like or don't like.

Believe it or not, I've been a member here for quite a LONG time and if it wasn't for another message board that informed me of this I would have never typed.

Thank you Luci for expressing your 2 cents about this whole dub/sub thing that IMO has gotten WAY overated, I will mention this since I'm also like you Luci, in the fact that I don't post that much. My name is Giovannie, 19 and I'm from Puerto Rico, I love dubs but I do not diss subs, I don't listen to subtitled anime because I enjoy them in my native tounge and I want to become a Voice Actor. I love VA and would love to meet every single one of them, yes I am that crazy about you guys Laughing

You know its kinda hard to express so much in such little time V_V but thanks for hearing me out Wink

Well in this case just wanted all of you to hear me out Cool

, I promise I will continue to post so that people know more about me \m/ Anime smile

)

I see no reason to debate these things. Whether a sub or dub is better, is entirely up the to the viewer. This whole "sub is always better" thing is getting way out of hand. Just watch the one you like better and be happy. Stressing out on the stupidest things is just going to make your hair turn gray and fall out quicker. Relax.

Key wrote:

In this case, though, I've seen the English dub as clearly the better one ever since the first FMP series. I honestly have a hard time understanding how anyone could listen to both dubs and not see the English one as the better in the lead roles....

Well, I listened to both tracks on the original series, and even though I'm a dub fan, I thought the seiyuu gave more appropriate performances in the lead roles.
Sousuke is supposed to be a young man who has been in the military since childhood. Maybe it's because I'm from the South, but to me the seiyuu sounds exactly as he should in tone and attitude; Chris Patton sounds like a guy from the suburbs who just enlisted.
Kaname is a stereotypical out-of-control teen girl that the Japanese find so funny, assumably because such things are almost unheard of in reality over there. There was one scene in particular which has stuck in my mind, where Kaname was yelling at Sousuke at the top of her lungs- the seiyuu nailed it, but Luci just didn't match what the animation was showing. Note I'm not complaining she didn't ape the seiyuu, but rather that she didn't match the visuals onscreen.
The only other time I have been disappointed in Luci's otherwise fantastic work was her role in AzuDai, and there again she was playing an over-the-top character, and again Luci just didn't go all the way. These instances may be due to the director, but given the similarities of the roles I wonder.
I once thought of making a thread entitled "Female VA's not willing to go 'all the way'? ", but after experiencing Wendee Lee's performance in Mahoromatic I knew this wasn't the case universally.

As as aside, is Naruto being dubbed in Texas? If so, I don't know how Luci wasn't offered the title role after her outstanding work on Peacemaker Kurogame.

WesW wrote:

[As as aside, is Naruto being dubbed in Texas? If so, I don't know how Luci wasn't offered the title role after her outstanding work on Peacemaker Kurogame.

No, Naruto is being dubbed by Studiopolis in California.

I don't want to add any more fuel to the fire in regards to the offensive and degrading attack the ANN moderator made on Luci, so all I'll say is that I enjoy both the Japanese and English tracks equally, and neither one is superior or inferior over the other in my view. I also want to say that it took a lot of courage and professialism for Luci to take time off her busy schedule to come on the ANN forum and give her thoughts on the situation. I feel really sorry for her that she had to go through that, and the way she handled the situation was very classy of her. For that, I now have greater respect for her, and I cannot be more proud and honor to be a member of her fan club. Thank you very much, Luci! Cool

In the wake of this, I hope that Anime News Network are taking the proper steps in disciplining the moderator for the offensive remarks that he made towards Luci. For a site that tries to promote intelligent conversation (as so they claim), it's a real shame that this had to happen, as prior to this episode I did had the upmost respect for the moderator in terms of his knowledge of anime and what shows might be of interest to me. While I understood why he doesn't like to watch anime in English (most especially the ADV-dubbed shows), the one thing I respected from him was that he always showed respect towards the English-speaking actors (unlike some sub-only anime watchers). Needless to say I was extremely shocked when I read that offensive attack from a person that I trusted towards one of the most popular, successful, and well-respected actors in the business. It pains me to say that from this point forward I can no longer trust and respect this person ever again. I would have felt a little better about this had he formally apologized to Luci for this episode, but in the response to Luci's statement (which I read several times), nowhere on the post did he said he was sorry for making those offensive remarks. That's what makes this episode really disappointing to me, and I don't know if I can trust any Anime News Network moderator ever again.

Last edited by Tony K. on Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

My comments were not meant to be personal. And how could they, as I've never even met anyone in the industry, let alone Ms. Christian? Apparently, I'm the new ANN biggot, so if you all truly see me that way now, then that's your call.

The majority of my animosty comes from a social and cultural standpoint in how just about everyone I encounter in anime fandom is always praising and revering ADV as "the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." Their dubs are hyped by many to be "the best" and I find it absolutely insulting each and every time in the attitudes of those people (no one here in particular, just in general) to keep throwing these statements around in a way that totally disregards and discredits even the slightest bit of acknowledgement for the Japanese actors, when if it wasn't even for them, these ADR crews wouldn't have had anything to work with in the first place. Throw on top of that some of their poorer/questionable marketing decisions/practices in the licensing, distribution, and manga departments, some of their not-so-good (technical) productions, and the ocassional overplayed advertising cuts, and you've got me, the anti-ADVocate.

To make a more common allusion, it's kind of like sports. For the 3 major sports, you've got a team that appears to be at the pinnacle in each business: the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL, New York Yankees in MLB, and L.A. Lakers in the NBA. They've got fans all over the place, and the common temperment that follows along with them is "they're America's team" and "you either love 'em or hate 'em." A sports fan can hate a team and talk all the trash they want. But in all likelyhood, the said fan would most probably never wish personal harm or ill-will on a player or employee of any of these teams. Maybe it's for the sake of comeptition or whatever that causes fans to act so two-faced, but that is roughly how I would equate my views on ADV (if that makes sense to any of the sports fans out there).

I don't plain-out hate dubs. The need and use for them is obvious in the U.S. market, and I have nothing against that. People have their preferences and choices in listening to whatever language track they feel is more comfortable. It's an equal opportunity for both sides of the spectrum, and each side will get their dues eventually.

My post about the dubbing on the first page is a result of months and months of repression and trying not to take so many cheapshots throughout the forums. And for whatever reason, this review just seemed to click on my bad side by personifying the belief I have always abided by. If Ms. Christian was offended, I apologize. Not knowing each other at all, I didn't expect any offense to be taken in the first place. I expected to called a "stubborn jackass" or something of the like by those in disagreement with me, or for her to turn around and not waste her time on a lowly, self-serving twerp of a person like myself, but I digress at this point since my comments were so clearly impulsive to the point that I made her register just to state her opinion.

I did not intend to illicit such a reaction, but as you can see, the many of you enjoyed seeing her post anyway, so I guess that's the only positive from this.

However, I still stand by my beliefs in the public perception of ADV and will not deviate from them for a while. I'm not asking you all and ADV to go out on a limb just to please me. That's what you call conformity. And if you're anything like me, I'm sure you'd hate to force yourself out of your own homeostasis just to make someone happy who you don't think really deserves it. Just do what you do, and let me chill out on the side. I'm not a misanthrope and don't believe in holding grudges (to a certain point).

I don't hold anything personal against anyone here or anywhere else except for that one guy in Maple Story named "CRAZYViET" who scammed me out 4 million mesos for a pair of Steely throwing knives that I never got. And if I ever have that kind of direct intent here, I promise you I will delete every single one of my posts, My Anime comments and sub-sections, resign as Moderator, and never post in these forums again. Better yet, I'll even inflict bodily harm and punish myself in all of your steads. A few knuckle punches to the noggin' at full strength should do the trick. The lasting headaches or the potential concussions can serve as a reminder to never let my emotions get too out of control again. A little Battsouai trick, if you will. Though to be honest, I came up with that slightly before Watsuki did Razz

.

This is a forum on the Internet, and I was only stating my opinion. If any one of you is as distrustful of me now as the user formerly known as biliano is, that's fine. I see no reason to lie and say I wasn't in fervent disagreement with Key's own personal view of the dub, or that I have some really strong intepretations of ADV from a social perspective. Because doing so now would only go against my own principles of letting people express their thoughts. It's up to you to believe me or not, regardless of our differences in beliefs.

And to share one quick story, this experience is the exact same situation of the previous user who was so adamantly oppositional against moe and loli in the form of daxomni. Because of how blatant a lot of his views were, I had read and recieved several complaints about how his particular posting style was sending threads and threads in loops about those issues. I sent him a PM requesting he either tone it down so I wouldn't have to keep locking/editing threads for overzealous and heated debate, or to stop completely and just hold it in. As a result, he decided to leave the forums. And in comparison, my stance on ADV seems to have resulted in a similar outcome. But at this point, I'm willing to shut up and just keep it all inside for who knows how long. So there you have it.

EDIT: Fixed some grammar and spelling. Added a few words and re-worded some sentences.

I took the reviewer to say that if you refuse dubs because of their quality, you have no excuse with this one. And this applies to a great amount of anime domestically released over the past five or so years.

For those of us who prefer watching a show rather than reading it, it's a real buying point, and I'm very happy with the quality of dubbing this series has received. For those who prefer the original, the point is moot, so why even make a fuss over it?

In any case, FMP!TSR has been great so far, no matter what language you prefer.

I'm an old fan of the tar and feather treatment myself Tony. :Gets his tar cooking: I'm ready for ya boy!!!

On a serious note though I don't think that you're a biggot in any way. Stubborn ass maybe Smile

I've talked with you before in PM and know your views about ADV but I've never once heard you say anything along the lines of "American dubs suck!!!: So anyone bashing you should wake up and read more carefully. I've always said to anyone here if you don't like a company that's cool. Different people different tastes. I just preach give the title a chance, not the company. I mean that in terms of a particular anime title you were looking forward to watching when released. Hope you didn't think I was bashing you in any way. I'm sure there are other posters here who aren't thrilled with ADV as there are those who don't like Geneon or Media Blasters. What kinda got me irritated were the Luci butt kissers who seemed to grovel when she posted. It's not hard or wrong to tell the VA's "hey I didn't like the job you did on this title and this is why." Any of them with half a brain will know not every single title they do will be a fan favorite or even liked by all or most people. If any VA expects every thing they do to be gold then those VA's need to go buy a clue and aren't worth talking to. I've had luck in that 95% of the VA's I've met from various companies have been nicer people and not stuck up asses. Even if you like someone doesn't mean you need to kiss their butt though.

As for your job as a moderator, speaking from my experiences dealing with you you're a very easy to deal with person and a good mod. You're usually one of the more calmer mods, and I mean no disrespect to the other mods. I hope you continue as you have. This is also not a butt kissing post so if anyone thinks that then go blow. You can be nice and give a compliment without being a butt kisser.

I would also suggest that BCI110 remove his or her head from whatever butt or hole it's in and read Tony's post again. He never once insulted Luci at all nor American dubs as a whole. I think you need to pay more attention when reading posts and not figuring out how to get Tony banned every waking second of your day. Let me speak from experience too, complaining about a mod won't do you a bit of good. Don't believe me, then PM Tempest and see what he tells you Very Happy

Hey, I completely understand that Tony K was just venting, and while I completely disagree with his viewpoint, I wouldn't have had a major problem with what he said if he hadn't drawn specific names into it. Saying you didn't like someone's performance in a particular role because of a flaw (such as too much accent or not going far enough with screams), or thought it wasn't one of their better efforts, that's fine; heck, I've done that a lot myself in reviews, and had it done to me. In this case he went farther than that, but he has apologized for it so I consider that part of the matter closed - and I hope others involved will, too.

What I'd like to know is where you're hearing all this rabid ADV praise that sickens you so much, Tony, because I've heard little to nothing like that. In fact, over the years I've heard far more complaints against ADV about their productions (both on technical production issues and actual dub work) than praises. There are at least as many ADV haters out there as extollers, I'd wager. And personally, I'd rate ADV at best as #2 when it comes to consistent dub quality; FUNimation's dubs, while looser in scripting, have more consistently been done well over the past couple of years than any other American company.

And is what you've heard being said about ADV any different at all from what sub purists spout about original Japanese productions invariably being better than any dub job that could possibly be done on them? It's just extremism in a different direction.

Key wrote:

What I'd like to know is where you're hearing all this rabid ADV praise that sickens you so much, Tony, because I've heard little to nothing like that.

It's a mix of places. Some on this and other forums, a little from my dub-liking friends, and most recently at the first anime convention I ever attended. And it's not just in the past 2 or so years. I've been hearing it since around the late 90s, but maybe I'm just being unlucky and listening to the wrong people.

Key wrote:

And is what you've heard being said about ADV any different at all from what sub purists spout about original Japanese productions invariably being better than any dub job that could possibly be done on them? It's just extremism in a different direction.

This is a difficult area to judge. I don't consider myself a purist and I don't expect every dub to be perfect. The feeling people get when listening to either track is completely subjective and dependent on the viewer's own tastes.

For instance, I'm a big Ocean (Vancouver) fan. As much as they mess up Japanese pronunciations and as much guff as they get for miscasting a lot of roles, I can honestly say I like a lot of their voices. Much of it is sentimental bias from my neonate anime days of DBZ and Gundam Wing, then a progression to Ranma 1/2, Inu Yasha, and finally Master Keaton. But as much as I like them, I've also seen plenty of people who don't. The subjectivity I mentioned is just not really a measureable quality, so the answer will never be absolute.

However, the way I see it, a majority of ADR groups should actually have the upper hand when it comes to dubbing. The Japanese have to start from scratch. When all is said and done, they cast who they feel is right for the role and take a gamble. But when a title gets dubbed, the ADR director and staff have less leeway because they've already got a completed source to work with, so the pressure lies more in their ability to cast, translate/adapt the script, and direct pronunciations or whatever.

As a result, it comes down to peoples' attention to detail. And as picky as sub or dub fans can get about being meticulous, I think that's where a lot of the stigma comes from. In a perfect world, it'd be nice if everything worked out. But for whatever reason, companies just can't stay consitent from one title to another. For some fans, certain efforts might be good enough. For others, perfection (or something close enough) is always expected. Again, though, that's all subjective to each person.

That's simply my observation, but other people may have their own interpretations.

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