Forum - View topicNEWS: Strife at IC Entertainment
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Glenn Sempai
 Posts: 23 Location: Hollywood Ca. |
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I Think that ANN has been very far about this thing. Even I.C. has linked to this story. I.C. had it chance to respond and it didn't. I'm sure that there will be a fallow-up. I think we need some time to let all the legal dust fall. Now is anybody going to See Kill Bill?
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takami826
 Posts: 28 Location: Cleveland, OH |
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Wait.
They've been in biz since only 97?? Then how are THEY the first to bring Japanese manga to the US in English? Someone up there earlier in this thread is a little wrong in their history about manga in the US, too. Tsk tsk Oh yea and I'm gonna see Kill Bill tomorrow. 
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PeteInPhilly
Posts: 5 |
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Specifically, their opening comments on how business was run at Ironcat. Stephanie: "For one thing, it was a general practice of the Bennetts to expect anyone interested in working at IC to work for free for a while. And it was like pulling teeth to even get paid." The first statement is a sweeping one, though not comprehensive. This is gray area. Hence, my conditional "construed as" phrase. Ellen's second sentence uses a simile, which is a generally safe practice. Duane: IC has always been a very small, very low profit margin company. Pretty much everyone had to do that—some longer than others. Duane uses the legally dangerous word "always" in his first sentence. But the statement is not derogatory really. Stephanie: So you come on board as FREE staff, and there's no set time for how long you're expected to work like that. You're just expected to come in as long as you possibly can and accept it. And once you get it settled about getting paid, it was ALWAYS delayed. Stephanie's is the most risky of all. It was not stated as opinion, it was stated as fact. If true, then it's obviously NOT libel. If not true, it is a false statement that can be seen as being damaging to the company. She is claiming (perhaps rightfully so, perhaps not) that Ironcat ALWAYS paid late and NEVER paid on time. Her conclusion that "...you're expected to come in as long as you possibly can and accept [working for free]." could be considered a libelous statement because it defames the company by accusing it of unfair practices ALL the time, without exception. (I should clarify here that I am uncertain as to whether it would be libel or slander. It was printed (libel), but it was also quoted (slander). I should also say that I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. Otherwise I'd be charging you for this.) Again, all this rides on the veracity of the statements. If true, then they're doing a proper thing in bringing this to light. If untrue, they are potentially damaging a company unjustly. My guess is the truth is somewhere inbetween. TTFN! Pete In Philly Last edited by PeteInPhilly on Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wcy2003
 Posts: 52 Location: Richmond |
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I'm going to let my proffessor look at the article and give me her opinion. She is my newswriting proffessor, I'll also get the ethics proffessor to take a look at it too.
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FubaredByAnime
Posts: 4 |
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Man, I had to join just to write this observation. Let's not forget about this statement from Duane:
I don't own a small business, but I do believe that's extremely frowned upon by the federal gov't. To some, that would be considered tax fraud. This could be why Ironcat is now listening to their lawyers and keeping their lips shut. |
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Gally3d
Posts: 9 |
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Pete, Your first quote that you say is from Ellen was actually said by Stephanie. Please pay more attention when directly quoting people.
edit: see the following ~ What happened between you and IC Ent? Stephanie: Well, there were several factors leading up to the mass exodus of staff. For one thing, it was a general practice of the Bennetts to expect anyone interested in working at IC to work for free for a while. And it was like pulling teeth to even get paid. Last edited by Gally3d on Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wcy2003
Posts: 52 Location: Richmond |
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After reading the article my newswriting professor has come to the conclusion that it is not libel. There were many reasons for this including the fact that ANN made efforts to contact IC Ent. in order to get their point of view. Also the structure of the article was in a Q and A format, making practically impossible to insert the opinions of ANN into the interview. Libel is not when someone being interviewed says something damaging about someone and they feel its damaging to their name. That's slander and they have to take it up with the person who said it, not the paper. The paper has a right to print what was said, if its untrue then the other party HAS to say so, and then they will print it. If IC had responded and ANN didn't print that they did, THAT would be libel. So the next time anyone screams libel they are holding a grudge and don't understand the meaning of the term.
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takami826
Posts: 28 Location: Cleveland, OH |
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of course it's not libel.
nor is there anything that is slanderous so long as the ex employees are telling the truth. that's kind of common sense |
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wcy2003
Posts: 52 Location: Richmond |
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I know that but apparently there were some who didn't, so I was clarifying for them
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SamGoody0491
Posts: 37 |
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It's not unusual that at conventions, or from conventions that employees be paid in cash. As I, an independant dealer, have done so many times before, because cash is how your product is sold, especially as an advancement towards your pay. Then the paperwork is drawn up at a later date for tax, etc, etc.
Also, I stated ONE of the firsts, not THE first. This wave of manga has only hit within the past two years. I believe it’s a Tabloid. Would you see that kind of interview in a credible newspaper? No. You would see an ARTICLE of the interview, with qoutes from the interview. Not printing an all-out bash. I don’t blame Ironcat for not speaking, and yes there are a few statements in there that can be construed as libel, and I’m quite sure that’s why Ironcat won’t speak. Why put yourself in a position of you yourself being held libel, when you’re trying to accuse of someone else doing the same.
Maybe its because they ARE a small company is the reason they couldn’t pay their employees.
I was at the panel, it’s not “working for free” its volunteering. Maybe because they love the company so much, they don’t want to see it fall or fail. Maybe because they know the truth about the situation. I advertise for them on my websites, I for one know I will not get paid, now or ever, to me I’m a volunteer trying to help as much as I can. I know this because I’m one of them, its all equity sweat, from many con staff I’ve heard “It isn’t a con, if Ironcat is not there.” I can tell you right now, I’ve worked for a comic store that has had some troubles, and because of love of the comics, the owner, and the industry. I’ve worked many weeks without pay, and then have been 6 months later the paid back pay for the time I’ve missed, when the company is on level ground. It’s a small company they can’t always have a lot of money all the time. Just a thought though…. Whenever I didn’t get paid at the comic store – accepted willingly all along at the time, because of love of the industry - If we ran across bad waters, and I quit under pissed off circumstances. It would be easy for me to claim exactly what the interview claimed. Ruthless company withholding pay, pulling teeth, refused pay, etc, etc, etc. Who’s to say otherwise? On a side note: Why is it the ANN Senior Editor and the ANN Editor in Chief cant get they’re stories straight?
Please, which is it? Enlighten the masses. |
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takami826
Posts: 28 Location: Cleveland, OH |
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Irrelevant. Here's why: EMPLOYEE: A person who works for another in return for financial or other compensation. VOLUNTEER: A person who performs or offers to perform a service voluntarily and in case there is further confusion... VOLUNTARY: Done or undertaken of one's own free will: acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward. Now that we have that settled... if the staff that is currently working there now is voluntary, then that's their thing and more power to 'em. Your "noble" reasons are also irrelevant. No one cares because you are willingly voluntary. Based on the ANN article, the ex-employees were promised wages for their work -hence referring to them as ex-employees. Therefore, if what is stated in the article is correct, they were UNWILLING to work for free. In addition, if what these ex-employees are stating is true, that they should have been paid but weren't, then it is totally irrelevant whether or not the company was small or multi-billion dollar profit margin. Furthermore, the discussion here is the ANN article, not your commentary about what a trooper you are for working sans pay. It's not about you. It's about the ex-employees and getting that situation resolved by whatever means the lawyers/courts/labour dept deem necessary. Records, actions, documentation, proof, facts are what shows otherwise. That is why there are investigations. The investigations will either prove the ex-employees' claims are accurate, or IC-ENT, Studio Ironcat, or whatever name they decide to choose next (hey what is with the constant name changes anyway?????) will be exonerated. (and in case you're confused on that, it means to free from blame. ) |
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wcy2003
Posts: 52 Location: Richmond |
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First of all sam I hate to break your bubble but libel is when a paper prints defamatory comments about a business, not when a paper quotes someone saying defamatory comments about someone. Its newsworthy that someone said it. If IC feels they have been slandered then they have to take it up with those that said it, not the paper. Its the journalists duty to report fact not truth. Truth can be anything. Its true that I said its actually sunday and not thursday. It would not be correct but its true that I said it. Fact however is something that has been said or happened. Fact is truely objective. In dealing with Q and A is about as far from tabloid as you can get. Tabloids use brash sensationalism and heavy adjective usage in order to give a more emotional feel to their stories. In Q and A the questions where asked, the answers were given. You have issues with what the employees say, not what ANN asked. ANN is supposed to print what they hear unless the interviewee says off the record or something to that effect. Who you want to be mad at are the ones who were interviewed.
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rrowv
 Posts: 10 |
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I think he was talking mainly just about the comments made, not ANN. Of course what ANN printed can't be considered libel. It the comments of the individuals quoted that could be.
But really...all 3 of the things Pete quoted were talking about IC having expecting people to work for free. Why would this be slanderous? First off, its a well known fact. Second, how is it bad? They're internships...so what? And you are quite right, the 3rd quote is much more iffy. It is indeed the one that is closest to the line. The problem is, I still don't see any defamatory language used there, just straight up facts. "And once you get it settled about getting paid, it was ALWAYS delayed." 'Always' in that sentence was an unwise choice. If it turns out it wasn't true for one person, and her statement is seen as damaging to the companies image...then maybe it could be considered slanderous. But just like saying, "you could get sued for that!", its a misnomer. You can get sued for nothing, literally. Whether or not you win is the real issue. Anything (trust me I've seen it) can be construed as libel. The judge may not agree though. |
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Cassandra
 Posts: 1356 Location: Birdsboro, PA |
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From what I gathered from the people who were interviewed, they were not in college. Therefore they are not internships. (Interns get "paid" with college credits and workforce experience....so technically, they are paid, it's just not in money.) |
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takami826
Posts: 28 Location: Cleveland, OH |
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Please go back and read the article. Interning is not bad in and of itself. The fact of the matter that, as this ANN article states in the interviews, payment arrangements were made and broken. This alledged fact is the whole beef of the matter. It's blowing my mind how this is all right in front of people and they cannot grasp what is being said here. It may be a 'well known fact' now that IC expects its people to work voluntarily however when you are HIRED (alledgedly) as an employee, that is not voluntary, it is not an internship, it is employment. 
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