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I have to say, reviews do play a role in my life. Anime, games, movies or whatever else I would read a review on; I enjoy reading them before using any of these types of goods. I don't base my ultimate decision on any one or number of reviews, but they sway me and I try to read the 2/10's and 9/10's and pick out the real bits of objective material.

Now when it comes to a cast of characters, I've read the same thing over and over and over. So and so is cliche'd. Mr. X is just a generalization for his race. Mrs. M is such a stereotypical "something or other" girl. I see this everywhere.

My thoughts and questions(s) amount to this, ARE so many characters like this? Are these reviewers bad? Is the creative minds behind anime and everything else losing steam with movies and animation dating back a good number of years each and countless hours exist of each media? And for that matter, if 99% of all characters are just cliche's, name me some good true to life non-stereotypical characters.

I don't know if maybe I don't see it because I'm not a very personal person. I distance myself from people so maybe I don't try to get attached to characters like other people who in turn can't because of said characters fail to feel real?

Let's take the Harem male. It's a character that really can not exist in real life. A male COULD be leading on 3-5 women, all of different personalities etc. But let's be serious that no leading man would be as wimpy, clumsy and geeky as most of these characters. It takes a strong personality to accomplish what they do by mere accident. I would agree that this is an example of an anime cliche. You really wouldn't see this in western movies, not with the character portrayed like that. Overall it's just absurd and used quite often. (Not that this makes harem anime bad really, just obviously unrealistic) I would agree that the very BLAND male lead cast in this role would be cliched because this role dates back a good amount of years and without sufficient backstory would be another static geek with women all around.

Of course I've lost any and all other specific examples I've had as I've been thinking about this for a few days. Go me.

But in the general sense, I find real life people to fall into some "cliched roles" people complain about. Does it come down to people unable to express their feelings about the characters and end up citing these overly used words?

I just want to know what others really think about this. Maybe I'm in the minority and just can't see the big picture and 90% of you agree that most characters are stereotypes. Who knows Wink

Vortextk wrote:

My thoughts and questions(s) amount to this, ARE so many characters like this? Are these reviewers bad? Is the creative minds behind anime and everything else losing steam with movies and animation dating back a good number of years each and countless hours exist of each media? And for that matter, if 99% of all characters are just cliche's, name me some good true to life non-stereotypical characters.

In today's time, with media, everything has been done more than a few times. Take that South Park "Simpson's did it!" episode. Its pretty much impossible to be completely original in today's day and age. Take a film, series, whatever, made in the past 5 years that you find original and unique and I guarantee you that people can find other older works that influenced it in some way or another. There is nothing wrong in doing this, and this does not mean that the creator is "running out of steam," well, as long as they're not just straight up lifting the exact same work.

I'll use My-HiME as an example here. The magical girl genre is used a lot, along with the basic character archetypes that come along with it. Natsuki, the stern girl with a tragic past that's out for her own agenda, Mai, the good natured girl who just wants to help others around her, Mikoto, the scrappy fighter who knows nothing else but fighting and acts on impulse, etc etc. Now, take any of these three and compare them to other characters of the same basic premise and the basic premise would be the only thing they have in common. The way Mai, Natsuki, and Mikoto interact with eachother as well as others along with other twists on their back stories and personality clicks are what differentiate them from the others of the same archetype. EX: The way Mai interacts with Tate is very different than the way she interacts with Takumi, and the way she interacts with Mikoto is entirely different from they way she does with the other two, and this is what makes Mai Tokiha Mai Tokiha and not "good-natured girl #598." So basically, it comes down to execution and character development.

I agree that the word "cliche" gets overused far too often; the use of that word is, in itself, a cliche Razz

. However, there are many works that use basic archetypes and setups so basically that they are forgettable generalizations. A good recent example of this is seen in the reveiw for Innocent Venus vol. 1:
animenewsnetwork.com/review/innocent-venus/dvd-1
Mainly in the description of the villains. They are so basic and stereotypical that they don't stand out in the least from the other hot-headed, "I like killing, muahahaha" characters out there. Hell, I was looking forward to seeing this, watched it about a week ago, and I can't even remember any of the villains' names.

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Let's take the Harem male...

Yes, the harem genre is the one that most oftenly falls victim to this. Infact, not even "victim," more like "guilty of." A guy who ranges from average to loser gets surrounded by sexy women of different archetypes. I seriously think that producers of harem anime, for the most part, try and play on the whole fan service bit to garner fans. Tenchi Muyo is the only harem-esque series that stands out from the rest for me, and from what I've heard, that was pretty much the "one that started it all," though I could have heard wrong.

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But in the general sense, I find real life people to fall into some "cliched roles" people complain about. Does it come down to people unable to express their feelings about the characters and end up citing these overly used words?

I strongly feel that if there were no people in real life who (in some way) fit these archetypes, than there would be no fictional characters like this. Being an artist of sorts myself, I strongly feel that creators' bring their own life experiences (again, in some way) to their own work and writing.

hope that helped... Wink

I agree, the word cliche is definitely overused. I think a large part of that it that people overgeneralize. They describle a character in a very broad sense and then declare them a cliche because lots of other characters can fall into this general descripton.

On the other hand though, often characters are not developed very much or are just generally non-descript. In these cases all there really is to say about them is that broad description.

Personally I've never felt Cliches to be the end of the world. Its really non-descript/non-developed characters thats a problem. If a character is decently developed and descript then there will be enough differences from other characters to make them not entirely boring. Sure nobody wants to see the same old thing over and over and innovative or new characters are good, but Id rather a somewhat cliche character over a inovative character who just isnt any good. There is a reason these characters are cliche, because theyre good characters.

Well, reviewers do tend to use broad categories.. they sometimes do not look at some unique aspects but only the aspects that will fit them into that category...but you can't blame them, it's like their way of life already, that's how they see things...they're not really bad at all...

That's why I do not read that much reviews...I only do that in books.. Well, cliche, stereotype or whatever, you should really not let these get into you. You should try to know something for yourself, not just because someone said this is good or something..It doesn't hurt to get disappointed because something did not turn out the way you want it to- it's rather a good experience. Try to do that, okay? Hope I helped.

I'm going to pose an example. EGM reviewed Tales of Symphonia (the game), and gave it an average of 8.5 (IIRC). Great game, but 'stereotypical story' (ragtag team of teenagers save the world). What saved it was the cool battle system, the interesting art style, and the lovable characters (stereotypical as they were).

I agree with the above posters; it's really, really tough to be original. But, I'll quote something that a friend of mine said, which he read in a book:

Originality is not doing something that hasn't been done before; originality is saying what you believe.

Hope I helped some...[/list]

Vortextk wrote:

My thoughts and questions(s) amount to this, ARE so many characters like this? Are these reviewers bad? Is the creative minds behind anime and everything else losing steam with movies and animation dating back a good number of years each and countless hours exist of each media?

Yes, entertainment in general is loaded with stereotypes and clichés; always has been. Some writers/storytellers use them as an easy way out (crafting something more original often takes a lot more effort), while in other cases they're used precisely because they are familiar; the creator knows that people who see such elements will immediately understand them and know what to expect. That can be of great benefit when making relatively minor supporting characters who may not have enough screen time to establish a unique persona, or when the creator wants to concentrate more on the story than the character development, and superior execution can also overcome a clichéd story element or stereotypical character. Such elements become a detriment when one particular type is overused or used without any attempt to give it a fresh angle, and that is what reviewers usually complain about.

Most reviewers have their jobs because they have a broad knowledge of their subject matter. If you are not seeing the clichés and stereotypes that reviewers talk about then it may just be a case of you not having seen enough of that particular genre to recognize them. Most people who have seen a lot of Dragonball Z, for instance, will instantly recognize the clichés it was instrumental in establishing about training sequences, power-up scenes, and "must get stronger" rhetoric carried over into Naruto and Bleach, while fans of the latter two that haven't seen much or any DBZ pooh-pooh any such connections and see their fave program as the original.

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And for that matter, if 99% of all characters are just cliche's, name me some good true to life non-stereotypical characters.

The first one that comes to mind is Kyon of Melancholy of Haruhi Suzimiya fame. You just don't see that combination, of laid-back, sardonic, insightful and yet also still definitely a virile teenage male in anime series - certainly not in leading roles. That's why he's such a key element in the rampant success of that series.

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Let's take the Harem male. It's a character that really can not exist in real life. A male COULD be leading on 3-5 women, all of different personalities etc. But let's be serious that no leading man would be as wimpy, clumsy and geeky as most of these characters. It takes a strong personality to accomplish what they do by mere accident. I would agree that this is an example of an anime cliche. You really wouldn't see this in western movies, not with the character portrayed like that. Overall it's just absurd and used quite often. (Not that this makes harem anime bad really, just obviously unrealistic) I would agree that the very BLAND male lead cast in this role would be cliched because this role dates back a good amount of years and without sufficient backstory would be another static geek with women all around.

Enh, you just have to remember that harem series are primarily about wish fulfillment and in no way intended to represent reality. And really, the "wimpy, clumsy, and geeky" guy getting the attention of the hottie girls is hardly a brand of wish fulfillment limited to anime; American live-action comedies have been doing that at least as far back as the early '80s American movie Revenge of the Nerds.

Levitz9 wrote:

Originality is not doing something that hasn't been done before; originality is saying what you believe.

That is one of the weakest (and IMO inaccurate) definitions of originality that I have ever seen. It would be more accurate to say something like, "originality isn't necessarily doing something that hasn't been done before; it can also involve taking the familiar and using it in an unfamiliar way."

Key wrote:

Some writers/storytellers use them as an easy way out (crafting something more original often takes a lot more effort), while in other cases they're used precisely because they are familiar; the creator knows that people who see such elements will immediately understand them and know what to expect.

Some characters/scenarios/settings are used simply because they are part of the cultural consciousness, archetypes that people use to express themselves. The use of archetypes itself does not signify unoriginality in of itself.

Well, the more and more you watch -- the more and more the cliches tend to stick out. It gets to the point where spoilers won't matter and y'can pretty much guess the outcome of an episode or series. Although, there are always surprises that allow the specifics (scenes, series, events) to stick out.

The tendency for cliches to exist -- that applies to ANYTHING involving story-writing.

If you want to see real life cliche, work in a boiler room like me. You see the same cast of characters everywhere, I swear.

The more you watch, read or listen to something, the more you are going to find things to be cliche.

Cliche =/= bad. To me, when I see a review say something is cliche, it just means a familiar group of characters. No problem with that. Brooding dark hero with tragic past? That's cool, most of those characters are entertaining.

To me originality is a bonus, but one that is hard to achieve. My main issue is with the quality of the characters and their development. It is only when a cliche character is 2 dimensional that I disdain them (Mars Daybreak, anyone?).

Shuffle! is an interesting one to think about. Lots of cliches, but I'll be damned if Kaede doesn't have one of the more interesting stories I seen. They could have made a whole anime just based on her messed up character.

cliche does not usually doom series by itself. Fundamental problems, such as pacing, presentation, art, etc, are a much greater killer. Even if an anime is really generic, it can be good if the basics are done well. Also, it is easy to fix a cliche. Adding a refreshing element, no matter how small, during any cliche can change the entire scene, character or whatever, easily.

ryokoalways wrote:

cliche does not usually doom series by itself. Fundamental problems, such as pacing, presentation, art, etc, are a much greater killer. Even if an anime is really generic, it can be good if the basics are done well. Also, it is easy to fix a cliche. Adding a refreshing element, no matter how small, during any cliche can change the entire scene, character or whatever, easily.

Trinity Blood is a good example of an anime that is just tremendously generic. The most original part of the whole show was the priestess that could see people's emotions and she died less than half way through and wasn't even interesting in the first place. There was no gaping flaw in the fundamentals but while one or two cliches are mostly irrelevant unless placed in very key positions (a mysterious girl with amnesia that's carrying a necklace that turns out to be the secret key to unlocking a demon is good example of that) just mashing them together from every angle makes a very poor series; even with decent basics. You can make a good show if you have perfect basics with no originality but you can only on the rarest of occasions make something memorable *cough*FullMetalPanic*cough*

More to the topic at hand, most cliches are just distortions of real life, ranging from the mild (the moody badass with amazing skill at everything) to the extreme (a clumsy nerd juggling 5 incredibly desirable girls by accident and becoming friends with all of them is impossible). Some are used because they're pretty much integral to the plot. Harem anime are almost required to have a clumsy nerd male lead; that type of harem is almost it's own genre. The ones that are damaging to a series are used purely out of laziness though. Amnesia is just a crutch for a predictable plot device that tends to show frequently in weaker scripts since it doesn't take any effort.

I thought trinity blood was killed by the ending? I never saw it so I don't know.

ryokoalways wrote:

I thought trinity blood was killed by the ending? I never saw it so I don't know.

I watched it to episode 23 so I never actually saw the ending. I know it's pretty retarded of me to not have seen it through considering I slogged through FMP and hated it much more but whatever. The series is just incredibly middling and not very engaging. I'm good at predicting things and reading subtle signs and stuff but following Trinity Blood is as easy as though I were the one who made it.

It kinda sounds like I hate the show a lot more than I do (I wouldn't really even use hate to describe it) but it really lacked any positive standout points to counter the negative.

ryokoalways wrote:

I thought trinity blood was killed by the ending? I never saw it so I don't know.

TB wasn't killed...but the ending was incredibly spoiler[open ended perhaps even more so than Inu Yasha] But TB has an excuse, it's creator spoiler[died].

Originality comes from the few geniuses that exist among mankind and are given the means to express their genius. Cliches come from anywhere between "really retarded" and "above average" people who take originality and use it, for better or for worse.

This fits for everything related to mankind, not just anime and storytelling.

Take anything in life as an example... Fire, the wheel, nail clippers, paper, brick, spoon, whatever. People who make anime can't ALL be geniuses.

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