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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15617
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 1:18 pm
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I haven't seen the original anime, other than the first movie, and the free YouTube episodes onTMS's tube[Don't forget that the anime is on Crunchyroll if you're new to Joe.]but I think it toned down Joe a bit to make him more likeable. Joe's a gutter punk who needs to be more like a team player. Hopefully, he'll develop more in later volumes.
Last edited by GATSU on Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Geo
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2703
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:35 pm
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Quote: | The bigger barrier to entry, however, is actually Joe himself, and how much mileage you get out of this series is gonna come down to whether or not you can get behind him as a character. Joe is egotistical, rude, hot-headed, and extremely cynical, often to a fault, as his tendency to provoke others usually makes things worse for him....
The question of whether Joe will be able to seize the better tomorrow he's searching for, or fall victim to the consequences of his actions makes for a solid hook, and even when he's at his worst, it's hard not to root for the possibility of him turning his life around. At the same time, the series' age makes it hard to determine how many of his traits are meant to be viewed as negative, versus painting him something of a loveable rogue (particularly his comments about women). While this mostly doesn't take away from the story, it is where it tends to feel the most dated. |
Having experienced the wide majority of the Ashita no Joe story via the first compilation movie & all of the Joe 2 TV anime, the answer is a bit of "Yes" & "No", but that's what makes Joe such an interesting character. He clearly does become a better person who cares for others beyond himself, but at the same time he still remains more than a bit cynical about himself & his future, fully cognizant of what means to him psychologically.
While Tetsuya Chiba himself certainly didn't shy away from "Asshole who (VEEEEERY) slowly learns to be a better person", as seen in the 2014 anime Rowdy Sumo Wrestler Matsutaro (who everyone in the old ANN anime previews back then actually tried deriding the show for trying to glorify Matsutaro's initial behavior, when the point was to show how bad he was before slowly learning how to be better over the course of the story), Joe himself is definitely a product of Asao Takamori, a.k.a. Ikki Kajiwara.
For those unfamiliar, Kajiwara was (to put it bluntly) not a good person & had a history of violent behavior (that he tended to keep under wraps), but eventually it caught up to him & resulted in him being mostly blacklisted from the manga after getting arrested in mid-1983 for assaulting an editor from Kodansha; he also nearly died around that same time due to how poorly he took care of his own body. In the end it wasn't until the mid-90s, years after his eventual passing in 1987, that his works were re-evaluated as iconic classics. In some ways, Joe's cynicism towards Japan in the late 60s & early 70s) could likely be seen as Kajiwara's own cynicism at the time, but with Chiba being able to help sand down the worst elements, not to mention the boxing itself being an outlet for Joe's anger to be released in a more healthy & positive fashion.
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Triltaison
Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Posts: 800
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 4:22 pm
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I've seen the original TV series, Ashita no Joe 2, and both movies. Joe is just a really interesting character. He's self-absorbed and more than rough around the edges, but also really embodies the post-war attitudes of many people living in the run down slums. I loved seeing this small community rally around Joe, and the transformation that hope instills in people like Danpei and Rikishi. But Joe himself isn't swept away in the same way, and he also isn't a reluctant hero archetype either. He's reliably unreliable, but not a loose cannon.
I've been a tremendous fan of the anime versions for a long time and insta-bought the Discotek blurays for the movies, so I'm quite excited to finally get to read the manga after all this time.
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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15617
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 5:19 pm
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Anyway, just be glad no one was crazy enough to bet on Cyborg 009 again, with its crazy panels....
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tintor2
Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2186
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Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 9:51 pm
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I think the manga started publication in 1968 but the artwork surprisingly aged well when showing fights. Not only that, but the art is quite well detailed when consantly showing bruises in Joe's hands and clothes probably to imply his poor status in society. From what I read, the mangaka studied Japanese boxers when deciding how to write the protagonist in a similar fashion to how Takehiko Inoue studied the Chicago Bulls when creating the Shohoku from Slam Dunk so the sports section is well detailed. Joe's personality is really reckless but I think it permanently changes the more he meets Rikishi and fights him.
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RupanSansei
Joined: 20 Sep 2024
Posts: 156
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Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2024 5:50 pm
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i remember getting interested in this series because of the NeoGeo fighting game Legend Of Success Joe
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Tokyogomionna
Joined: 07 Dec 2019
Posts: 8
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 10:44 am
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As a modern reader I, too, was very confused as to whether Joe is meant to be a likable protagonist or not after he robbed Danpei and sold his stuff. Also, interesting choice to criticize Tetsuya Chiba's artwork months after he became the first mangaka artist to receive Order of Culture.
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Lord Geo
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2703
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 1:07 pm
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Tokyogomionna wrote: | As a modern reader I, too, was very confused as to whether Joe is meant to be a likable protagonist or not after he robbed Danpei and sold his stuff. |
It should be pointed out that Joe's initial thievery & the like that gets him sent to juvie happens in less than one volume's worth of content, with Joe being taken away by the cops (after Danpei beats him up) happening on page 153, out of this omnibus' 573 pages of manga. The point is to show how low of a person Joe is at first before he finds a reason to get better after finding a rival in Rikiishi, which in turn makes him want to seriously take up boxing, which in turn turns him into a better role model for the downtown Tokyo district he lives in.
Also, to be fair, Joe's early behavior apparently did initially get Kodansha in hot water, as parents seemingly did send in complaints about how Joe was a terrible role model for their children, who were reading Weekly Shonen Magazine at the time. That's what makes is all the more amusing that Joe would go on to be such a beloved & influential character in Japan, because he truly does become a better person, if still more than a bit self-destructive deep down.
Quote: | Also, interesting choice to criticize Tetsuya Chiba's artwork months after he became the first mangaka artist to receive Order of Culture. |
The only "criticism" in the review really just says "The art style in this manga is very old school, & not like what you'd expect from most manga that sees release", which while admittedly a little redundant (it's a manga that debuted in 1968, while Chiba himself debuted back in the 50s, so of course it's going to look notably different) is still something to bring up. I wouldn't call it a "criticism", but rather more of an "observation", because in the end Jairus still overall praised Chiba's artwork, and it's something that only gets better as the manga continues on.
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Tokyogomionna
Joined: 07 Dec 2019
Posts: 8
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 1:40 pm
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Lord Geo wrote: | The only "criticism" in the review really just says "The art style in this manga is very old school, & not like what you'd expect from most manga that sees release", which while admittedly a little redundant (it's a manga that debuted in 1968, while Chiba himself debuted back in the 50s, so of course it's going to look notably different) is still something to bring up. I wouldn't call it a "criticism", but rather more of an "observation", because in the end Jairus still overall praised Chiba's artwork, and it's something that only gets better as the manga continues on. |
I disagree that it's merely an observation, because, while containing no other criticisms for the art, the art still received lowest score in the grading. Why? For potentially looking too dated to some viewers in this reviewer's opinion? And I honestly just outright disagree with this "observation", Chiba's artwork is fantastic and not once looks dated, there's a reason why AnJ is a timeless classic and timeless aesthetic is big part of it.
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Lord Geo
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 2703
Location: North Brunswick, New Jersey
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Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2024 2:16 pm
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Tokyogomionna wrote: | I disagree that it's merely an observation, because, while containing no other criticisms for the art, the art still received lowest score in the grading. Why? For potentially looking too dated to some viewers in this reviewer's opinion? And I honestly just outright disagree with this "observation", Chiba's artwork is fantastic and not once looks dated, there's a reason why AnJ is a timeless classic and timeless aesthetic is big part of it. |
Dude, you're literally making a big deal out of a "B" grade, while the other two grades given are both B+. You'd maybe have an inkling of a point if Jairus gave the art a C or C-, but he didn't, and he overall praised it. Literally no one's going to look at a B grade for art in a manga review & think "Man, that must mean that the artwork sucks".
Also, I do agree that Chiba's artwork is fantastic, but I also agree that it's of a certain vintage that isn't really done by artists today, outside of when it's direct homage, and for some it might not be as appealing; that's how things work when it comes to advances in technology & changes in styles. Also also, Chiba's artwork only gets better as AnJ continues on, so giving the early art here a B grade is fair, because (in my opinion) it's only going to get better with later omnibuses, so it'll work it's way up the ranks over time, & the same will be true of the story & overall rating. Jairus isn't reviewing the entire manga here, only an omnibus covering the first three volumes.
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Tokyogomionna
Joined: 07 Dec 2019
Posts: 8
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2024 5:05 am
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Lord Geo wrote: | Dude, you're literally making a big deal out of a "B" grade, while the other two grades given are both B+. You'd maybe have an inkling of a point if Jairus gave the art a C or C-, but he didn't, and he overall praised it. Literally no one's going to look at a B grade for art in a manga review & think "Man, that must mean that the artwork sucks". |
I mean, yeah, how is that a bad thing to question something I don't understand? From the way I see it, imagine if volume 1 of Berserk got a B grade for artwork and only reason was that it was released in the 80s and the abundance of muscly men might not appeal to everyone. Assumption that looking vintage might not appeal to someone is a very silly reason to knock it down a little bit because I am literally living example of someone who picked it up because of how it looked. B rating for Chiba's artwork is literally incomprehensible.
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 719
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Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2024 9:58 am
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I own Ashita no Joe in Japanese, but it's in bunkoban format, so I was excited to pick up a deluxe treatment in English.
Was excited.
I'm incredibly disappointed by the printing of the back cover, where the synopsis bleeds into the dip of the binding, AND the paper quality of the book. This book retails for sixty dollars and it feels like it was printed on newspaper. I was expecting something closer to the Vertical's Gundam Origin release, or Udon's Rose of Versailles, and instead I got one of Viz's cheap 3-for-1's with a chipboard cover.
In my 20 years on ANN, I've never once complained about the physical quality of a release, but this one was so bad I felt like I had to say something.
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