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Answerman - Why Is Anime Getting More Popular In The West (Again)?

Those moe-intensive series from a few years ago had to dilute themselves to retain and/or expand their audiences because just slapping an "everything is moe" label on an anime series isn't (usually) good enough anymore for it to be successful.

@Selipse: Actually, I didn't realize you were relisting anime when you mentioned the "Inou-battle" shows, so I had counted up to 19, instead of the 14 you had meant. But again, that's still a lot of shows given your restrictions (I mean seriously, you can try to spin the idea that moe only makes up two shows on the market, but that's totally ignoring how moe characters and the general aesthetic/sensibilities appear in a lot of other shows as well), and doesn't change my overall point that a lot of anime these days reflect an aesthetic and cultural spirit that I'm not just disinterested in, but that actively irks me when I see them. That was a rarity for me back in the day, but happens with a lot more regularity nowadays.

Cuteness, yes of course. I love cute things my room is full of them. 12 year olds flashing their panties? Not so universal.

I'm quite literally taken aback at how many words you've placed into my mouth.

You have stated that the otaku oriented shows currently produced bother you.

I don't at all feel the same way about anime. I think anime from the 80's, 90's, and up through a lot of the 2000's, was fantastic/great. Even anime from the 70's and further back is fascinating to watch in its own right. But anime from the modern day has so many teeth-grating sensisibilities that make me want to gag. Whether it's moe, idol culture, the metro look, loli obsessiveness, melodramatic relationships, teenagers feigning unaffectedness/coolness, light novel adapatations, etc., there's so much anime coming out right now that's eye-gougingly cringeworthy in ways that I'm spiritually repulsed by. Classics and reboots notwithstanding (One Piece, Ushio & Tora, etc.), the modern anime scene, for me at least, is different now, but in a bad way. I'll take the cartoony, light-hearted mid-90's or the sci-fi campy 80's over the teenage milquetoast facepalm-worthy modern era any day.

But the modern moe/metro idol milquetoast underage teens etc. etc. anime of today is bad in a way that actually offends my sensibilities; I get a whiff, and feel like puking. The tepid, sociallly/sexually frustrated spirit driving modern light novel and late-night otaku anime makes me nauseous, and while I can respect Japan's modern polish and production capabilities from a technical standpoint, spiritually speaking the culture is mostly dead to me.

This is a case where exact wording matters. Western-focused? No. Western-friendly? Yes. The two are not synonymous.

Every season a healthy percentage of newly-debuting shows has next-to-no chance of garnering a Western audience beyond hard-core otaku because they are either too specifically ingrained in Japanese culture (which can be a repellent factor for fringe viewers) or focus on fetishes which are far more common in Japan than in the West. Shows other than fan service fests (which have to be considered separately because sex and nudity will always have at least some degree of international draw) which more than marginally step beyond that are relatively rare; in most years there are only a handful. It definitely feels like they have been more frequent the past 2-3 years than normal, though.

Sales numbers have shown again and again that that stuff sells mostly in Japan and nowhere else.

If you are not suggesting that anime should in some way change to better suit your taste, just what is your point? Repeatedly saying that something is bad serves no useful purpose. Most of the people here find a sufficient number of shows each season to sustain an active fandom. Do you really expect them to be happy and change their preferences when you say it is all bad?

The thing is, trying to define moe beyond healing shows would end up making everything moe.

There's the original Japanese definition, which actually doesn't have anything to do with design, that means a feeling you have when you find a character cute and want to protect them. And literally every character ever created could sprout that feeling. Walter White? I just want to hug him and tell him that he doesn't have to go through all that trouble, that everything will be alright.

Then there's what many in the west think is moe, which would be cutesy character designs. And that's in no way anything new. Just look at all these cute girls. They're adorable. Even the boys.
It usually gets twisted into "one specific" art style (not really, since they just lump together things from K-ON to Clannad) that they dislike. So moe ends up being an umbrella term for "art styles that I don't like".

People have pointed out that there are a few shows every season that do not fall in that category. You have called that "cherry picking"

If you feel that otaku "poison" has infected everything currently and that there is literally nothing on that you like, perhaps it is time you found a new hobby.

There is an easy solution to that, don't watch them. The previews and reviews provided here should give you enough warning that you don't even have to watch a single episode.[...]Take those shows and the older stuff you like and you should have enough to keep you busy.

Man, you guys really have this down to a science. Somebody expresses their distaste for otaku shows? First somebody like Paiprince swarms them, insists up and down that their position is utter nonsense, and makes a bunch of absurd and often downright personal insinuations about them. Then when the person responds to defend themselves and/or their position, you swoop in as the "reasonable" guy to chide them (and only them) for their refusal to just let this go and/or accept other people's differing preferences. It's like good cop/bad cop except for shutting down opinions you don't like.

@strawberry

my original post was reasoned and written in a calm tone. I never suggested moe or anything like it cease to be produced; only that the dwindling numbers of Japanese youth couldn't support that niche in the long term and that diversification and expansion would help the industry grow. This is common sense in business. Then I got swarmed by paiprince and others because they assumed I was personally disgusted by moe or otaku shows. I may have made some snappy remarks but really it's hard not to when your entire point gets ignored and words get shoved in your mouth. I even avoided insinuiating that otaku don't get married and have kids and said it was a problem with Japan as a whole without attributing a reason for it. As a result I was told basically to find a new hobby and gtfo if I didn't like harem/moe stuff.

Man, you guys really have this down to a science. Somebody expresses their distaste for otaku shows? First somebody like Paiprince swarms them, insists up and down that their position is utter nonsense, and makes a bunch of absurd and often downright personal insinuations about them. Then when the person responds to defend themselves and/or their position, you swoop in as the "reasonable" guy to chide them (and only them) for their refusal to just let this go and/or accept other people's differing preferences. It's like good cop/bad cop except for shutting down opinions you don't like.

This. If all the shut-in otaku aren't having kids, the demographic will eventually die out, and the industry will naturally adapt to cater to the surviving demographics. It gives me some long-term hope for anime getting its proverbial mind out of the gutter.

Kikaioh wrote:

This. If all the shut-in otaku aren't having kids, the demographic will eventually die out, and the industry will naturally adapt to cater to the surviving demographics. It gives me some long-term hope for anime getting its proverbial mind out of the gutter.

You don't need to force kids to watch those shows for them to get into it, you just get into it because you watch it and see for yourself. No one groomed to me enjoy anime, I just came to it and it felt natural for me to enjoy it, no parental guidance necessary.

Personally speaking, I think people generally understand what's meant when the word "moe" is brought up, but people defending moe try to muddy the definition so as to make it out that "everything can be moe", just to make it impossible to discuss things (I mean really, no one looks at Lt. Bright and thinks "moe", not until a discussion like this comes up at least). Anyways, it's a conversation I've had a number of times on the forums already, and one that I won't revisit here.

I've had it happen several times. Dare criticize the sacred cow of moe and fanboys flip out. Nevermind the fact everyone outside of their cultural bubble sees a lot of this stuff as misogynistic and downright creepy.

So, it is wrong to defend something that you like from (baseless) attacks?

Also, this argument about the "dwindling amount of kids in Japan" not being able to sustain niche moe? Guess what, they also won't be able to sustain niche anything, because it's not just cis-het males who are being born less. Niche otome, niche fujoshi, niche everything.

I don't watch them. I've read the previews and reviews here on ANN for years and watch the trailers, which all generally gives me a sense for what things are like. That said, I do still on occasion watch the first episodes of shows to see if my impressions are different from the reality (which they unfortunately usually aren't).

And I do have enough to keep me busy. But when I visit ANN and I see various articles and imagery displaying aesthetics and sensibilities that make me cringe, it's not like I can just pretend they're not all there. Trying to keep abreast of the industry means having to deal with regularly seeing a lot of things I don't like, and I'm not sure there's a way to help that.