Forum - View topicAnswerman - Why Is Anime Getting More Popular In The West (Again)?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
Author | Message | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Parse Error
Posts: 592 |
|
|||||||
The part I disagree with is that it sounds like you're suggesting the need to adapt was caused primarily by dwindling interest. Perhaps it comes down to whether one sees the glass as half empty or half full, but to me it seems more like both otaku and producers developed higher expectations over time, especially with KyoAni raising the bar on quality of breadth of appeal throughout the latter half of the previous decade. Undiluted CGDCT shows still succeed when they're good enough precisely because the demand is still there for anything that meets current standards. However, as you said, that still means what you're saying is true, since failing to rise to the challenge would have caused it to wane, it's just that your wording makes it sound as if the situation is more dire than it is in my opinion. To put it a different way, it's a bit puzzling when people talk about things such as the moe boom ending, or moe being in decline, getting diluted, and so on, when it doesn't seem like moe fans are getting any less of what we actually want. It's not exactly a common thing to hear a moe fan pining for the good old days or whining about how they no longer have anything to watch. Sure, there's a lot less subpar crap which hardly anyone liked to begin with, but that's only because it has been replaced by even more stuff that has the same appeal yet is much, much better. From that perspective, it looks a lot more like moe is in an even stronger position than it was before. Last edited by Parse Error on Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:00 pm; edited 4 times in total |
||||||||
Selipse
Posts: 216 |
|
|||||||
The thing is, trying to define moe beyond healing shows would end up making everything moe. There's the original Japanese definition, which actually doesn't have anything to do with design, that means a feeling you have when you find a character cute and want to protect them. And literally every character ever created could sprout that feeling. Walter White? I just want to hug him and tell him that he doesn't have to go through all that trouble, that everything will be alright. Then there's what many in the west think is moe, which would be cutesy character designs. And that's in no way anything new. Just look at all these cute girls. They're adorable. Even the boys. It usually gets twisted into "one specific" art style (not really, since they just lump together things from K-ON to Clannad) that they dislike. So moe ends up being an umbrella term for "art styles that I don't like". Also, I just have to mention that, if anything, even art styles have gotten more varied thanks to technological advancements.
Speaking of lumping together, seems like people keep grouping ecchi and healing anime. They're not the same. I seriously can't believe that anyone would actually feel nauseous by watching cute, fun, harmless comedies. I mean, the freaking name of the subgenre is "healing". And if that's somehow because of some misconception that they're for disgusting pedophiles, just stop. The reason shows like K-ON and Love Live have been so successful is because they have reached out of their intended target audience and achieved (albeit a bit modest) mass-appeal. You read that right, K-ON has mass-appeal. They're not even exceptions as far as subject matter (ie not having fanservice) goes, either. Anyways, what I was trying to do before this post was not even defending the things that you dislike. What I was trying to say was that they're not everything, not even the majority, of things that anime has to offer even nowadays. I'm just trying to say that even if you don't like almost half of what's coming out, just enjoy the other half! That half is comprised of 20+ shows, afterall! Not all are guaranteed to be masterpieces, but that's normal. I mean, do you even watch that many? That's all. |
||||||||
Alan45
Village Elder
Posts: 9973 Location: Virginia |
|
|||||||
Kikaioh wrote:
You apparently did not read my post. The only thing I attributed to you was
You said
And
If you are not suggesting that anime should in some way change to better suit your taste, just what is your point? Repeatedly saying that something is bad serves no useful purpose. Most of the people here find a sufficient number of shows each season to sustain an active fandom. Do you really expect them to be happy and change their preferences when you say it is all bad? |
||||||||
Stuart Smith
Posts: 1298 |
|
|||||||
Western-friendly shows might be few, but maybe the issue is more on our side of the fence. There's the entire shoujo format which traditionally is non-existant in America outside Sailor Moon because nostalgia. Then you have the shounen series that don't involve people beating each other but use their minds up like Detective Conan, Phi Brain, Young Case Files, and similar series. Then the comedy series that go virtually unnoticed like Gintama. Perhaps the issue lies in we're just very close-minded on what we like. If it's not an action oriented shounen then chances are it won't be doing very well.
A Japanese show selling in Japan doesn't seem like an issue to me. If Glitter Force falls on it's face and shows magical girl shows don't work in the west, I don't think Japan should throw them all out the window because they only work in Japan. If Japan can sustain their own industry and to let all those mystery shows, magical girl shows, and comedy shows get made then more power to them, I say. And let's admit it,, Anime's been "dying" since the 90s People say that mantra every year in hopes it's true. One year the industry goes up, the other it goes down, then the next it's back up again. The only thing it hasn't done in the past 25 years is die. -Stuart Smith |
||||||||
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||
You know, whenever this comes up, certain people always try to frame it as "Western tastes vs Japanese tastes". But I maintain that to be a fairly dubious summation. It is true of course that some types of shows are more profitable in Japan versus in America. In reality though there's no particularly huge difference in underlying tastes between Japan and America. Not among the general population of potential anime watchers anyway. In both countries it can be more or less said that a wide margin of people prefer serious, action, or scifi oriented shows versus a tiny niche who like otaku pandering shows.
So why are the latter way more profitable in Japan? The only real difference, I think, comes from how the respective industries are structured. In America, DVDs are significantly cheaper (and more feasible to collect for space reasons) and as Justin alluded to, streaming has become a major source of revenue. This positions the American anime industry to capitalize on the serious, action, or scifi oriented shows quite effectively. They make much less per watcher but since such shows reach a much wider audience they do quite well anyway. In Japan however, DVDs are prohibitively expensive to the point where really only the most hardcore otaku can collect them. Meanwhile streaming is still somewhat in its infancy and anyone who just wants to watch a show once can do so via TV broadcast which largely remain closer to a paid late night commercial for the DVD than anything that actually generates revenue or attracts the attention of more mainstream fans. Thus, the Japanese industry is best suited to profit off of otaku shows. These shows may only cater to a small niche audience but they are most effective at sucking every last dollar out of the pockets of these people. Meanwhile, the ultimately much larger market for more serious, action, or scifi oriented shows has been largely ignored from a business perspective to the point that they've largely moved on to other things. I think this is a key distinction that debunks a lot of the hand-wringing that usually accompanies these discussions. For one, you can stow all that weeb nonsense about how anime should be made for the Japanese and not Americans. It also applies to some more potentially valid concerns though. There is some truth after all to the suggestion that Japan is not very good at understanding the American market and/or collaborating on co-productions. Thus, an industry built around just making stuff intentionally aimed at America is probably pretty unstable. As I've said though, catering to American/International tastes is not inherently at odds with catering to Japanese tastes in my opinion. It's just a question of who in Japan you're catering to. Of course, that's not to say it is as easy as just making shows for a wider Japanese audience. It is possible though, I believe. It's going to take a lot of changes for Japan to start bringing more mainstream fans back into anime. I do believe it is possible though. It's certainly not a case where you simply must write off the domestic market and make shows for the international one. Not in the long term anyway.
Man, you guys really have this down to a science. Somebody expresses their distaste for otaku shows? First somebody like Paiprince swarms them, insists up and down that their position is utter nonsense, and makes a bunch of absurd and often downright personal insinuations about them. Then when the person responds to defend themselves and/or their position, you swoop in as the "reasonable" guy to chide them (and only them) for their refusal to just let this go and/or accept other people's differing preferences. It's like good cop/bad cop except for shutting down opinions you don't like. |
||||||||
Kikaioh
Posts: 1205 Location: Antarctica |
|
|||||||
Personally speaking, I think people generally understand what's meant when the word "moe" is brought up, but people defending moe try to muddy the definition so as to make it out that "everything can be moe", just to make it impossible to discuss things (I mean really, no one looks at Lt. Bright and thinks "moe", not until a discussion like this comes up at least). Anyways, it's a conversation I've had a number of times on the forums already, and one that I won't revisit here. @Alan45: Apparently, you didn't read your own post either (or perhaps, like I was saying, you took for granted that the things you said on my behalf were true). For example:
No, I did not. I said that Paiprince's list of 4 or 5 shows from the aughts that he thought were good enough to disprove my dislike of shows past the year 2000 was intentional "cherry-picking" (even though I liked some of the shows he listed, and had already mentioned several times in this thread that I liked shows well into the 2000's).
I never said that the otaku aesthetic has infected everything, nor that there is "literally nothing on that I like." Even in my second post in this thread I mentioned, "classics and reboots notwithstanding (One Piece, Ushio & Tora, etc.)" which are current shows I do like that have been airing. Now for the things you implied:
I don't watch them. I've read the previews and reviews here on ANN for years and watch the trailers, which all generally gives me a sense for what things are like. That said, I do still on occasion watch the first episodes of shows to see if my impressions are different from the reality (which they unfortunately usually aren't). And I do have enough to keep me busy. But when I visit ANN and I see various articles and imagery displaying aesthetics and sensibilities that make me cringe, it's not like I can just pretend they're not all there. Trying to keep abreast of the industry means having to deal with regularly seeing a lot of things I don't like, and I'm not sure there's a way to help that. |
||||||||
strawberry-kun
Posts: 306 |
|
|||||||
I hope you realize that you guys aren't any better with your little passive aggressive insults and little swipes at anyone who dares to disagree with you to go along with your elitist, condescending attitude. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe people react the way they do because of your posting style? There is a big difference between "I have a hard time finding shows that I like these days" and "THIS IS SEXIST, MISOGYNISTIC BLAH BLAH BLAH. IT'S CLEARLY FOR BASEMENT DWELLING OTAKU BLAH BLAH BLAH. LET'S THROW IN THE OBLIGATORY PEDOPHILES INSULT FOR GOOD MEASURE BLAH BLAH BLAH" No, it can't be that. It's clearly because other people can't handle differing opinions. By the way, when I said that my tastes are more in line with the Japanese market, I meant the Japanese market for anime as in what typically sells and what's typically made over there. I think that's what most people mean when they're talking about the Japanese market's tastes. I don't think they mean Japan in general or some theoretical (in most cases) mainstream market. |
||||||||
Lili-Hime
Posts: 569 |
|
|||||||
ikillchicken
thanks for the rational response You made a lot of great points. What I took from it is that Japan's media and entertainment structure is still largely tied to physical media and therefore is outdated and archaic. IIRC they still depend a lot on CD sales to support the music industry (from the last time I checked Japanese iTunes this seemed to be pretty true; almost nothing on there). Another thing to account for otaku shows having inflated numbers is that publishers often exploit otaku's 'collector' mentality by producing variations; like giveaway that came with the K-on! movie tickets; you'd have to purchase several tickets in order to collect them all. It reminds me of reading about the variant cover tricks comic book companies started using when sales began to artificially inflate sales. @strawberry my original post was reasoned and written in a calm tone. I never suggested moe or anything like it cease to be produced; only that the dwindling numbers of Japanese youth couldn't support that niche in the long term and that diversification and expansion would help the industry grow. This is common sense in business. Then I got swarmed by paiprince and others because they assumed I was personally disgusted by moe or otaku shows. I may have made some snappy remarks but really it's hard not to when your entire point gets ignored and words get shoved in your mouth. I even avoided insinuiating that otaku don't get married and have kids and said it was a problem with Japan as a whole without attributing a reason for it. As a result I was told basically to find a new hobby and gtfo if I didn't like harem/moe stuff. |
||||||||
strawberry-kun
Posts: 306 |
|
|||||||
I didn't mind your initial post. Your last one admittedly got under my skin a little. I got too emotional in my last post, so I'll apologize for that. I do still stand by my overall point that it's not hard to see why people get defensive seeing some of these posts. |
||||||||
Paiprince
Posts: 593 |
|
|||||||
As Strawberry has said, you guys aren't exactly guilt-free lording over those who would dare to say otherwise. Deep within that rational rhetoric of yours belies an arrogant attitude towards otakus as if they're twirly moustached villains keeping "normie" anime hostage while ignoring several points that refute the notion. Classic victim minority mentality. Just as you are tired of the tropes and cliches, there are people who tire of all the whining and moaning about those that goes on here and other anime circles.
Thanks for the implications that we apparently operate in a hivemind, targeting prey up. I'm sure this doesn't happen when a couple of you mentally pat yourselves on the back with a "This." |
||||||||
walw6pK4Alo
Posts: 9322 |
|
|||||||
You don't need to force kids to watch those shows for them to get into it, you just get into it because you watch it and see for yourself. No one groomed to me enjoy anime, I just came to it and it felt natural for me to enjoy it, no parental guidance necessary. Also, this argument about the "dwindling amount of kids in Japan" not being able to sustain niche moe? Guess what, they also won't be able to sustain niche anything, because it's not just cis-het males who are being born less. Niche otome, niche fujoshi, niche everything. Anyway, that real decline might still be decades off, and unless we see immediate dips in terms of shows made within a couple years, I think a few thousand more anime TV series might tie you off till then. Even a major crash at this point would probably just see us return to what production numbers looked like in the late 90s and early 00s. |
||||||||
Dfens
Posts: 462 |
|
|||||||
Wouldn't say Anime is getting more popular here in the West but more of a case it's more readily available to potentially attract newer fans. That it's more well known and showing up in more places but it's far from the point of ever being main stream.
I've been into Anime since just before Highschool which would be around 17 years now. And I've seen every type/genre of show that they have to offer. What got me into Anime is that is was so different and offered so many choices on types of shows to choose from, I wasn't looking for something that had mass appeal to Westerners. I don't buy into the premise that Japan needs to cater to over seas markets like the West and make more shows that don't appeal to the so called Otaku Only market. With what 25-30 shows a season across 4 seasons a year their is got to be something for everyone to find a show or two to watch. Take me I keep telling myself every season I'm only going to watch 4-5 shows at most and always find more that that to keep up with. This season alone I'm watching 11 shows 12 if you count one of those 3 minute a episode shows. Their is a segment of new fans at the very least I heard will get tired of Anime within 2-3 years and that's a given. Those who stick around can watch shows till any age. With legal streaming sites like Crunchy, and big contenders like Hulu or Net Flix any new potential fan has easy at your finger tips access to Anime as it airs in Japan. I can still remember the old days when it was so niche over here in the states that it was almost like a underground hobby. Look in Japan shows make most of their profit through disc sales and even if their is enough people watching the show doesn't mean that everyone of them can afford to buy it let alone every show they may have watched. Hell some could be like the fans over here they enjoy watching it buy don't want to own a copy for repeated viewings. Yes the more popular shows or shows that appeal to the hardcore fans seem to sell better over their. But that doesn't make them the best shows ever. If I was living in Japan I would really curb my disc buying too since it's so expensive. For the life of me I can't understand why people are so hung up they make too many of X show I don't like it. Then don't watch it find something else. I can watch almost anything but I have my particular tastes I tend to seek out first and others that don't hold my interest so I avoid them out right or will drop them if it puts me to sleep. To think that shows to name a few like Sword Art Online, One Punch Man, or Attack on Titan where almost exclusively made with the over seas market only in mind is ridiculous. Yes they are shows that casual or not heavy into the hobby can get into and have more mass market appeal than say the latest Ecchi show but from day one they where for the Japanese domestic market first to sell more Manga/Light Novels and merchandise and if they can squeeze more money from foreign markets then great. It means that the title was big enough or at the point of hey lets turn it into a show and hope it not only sells well disc wise it will also help it's franchise sell another book by getting those who watched said title to now buy and read the source material. I've seen the LE sets for domestic Japanese discs and they aren't that much more better than the regular edition if ones available. But they attract the people who really like the show and who say what the hell I really like it so I'll spend a few dollars more for the nicer package or few extra trinkets. I do the same with the LE releases for the US market versions. As for comics I was a very young when they pulled the variant cover trick. Actually what happened was they weren't selling more comics because more people wanted to own a copy. Instead before the bubble burst people were buying in hopes of that they would be a investment and go up in value I did they same thing myself for a few issues before I got wise. So selling say 5 times as many books for a specific issue didn't mean more fans where buying it meant that 1 person was buying all the variants. And so they kept printing more and more copies to the point where fans got tired of it and when the book didn't go up in value the bubble finally burst. |
||||||||
Actar
Posts: 1074 Location: Singapore |
|
|||||||
Precisely. My parents are not anime fans. I became one out of my own (misguided) volition.
Perhaps it is you guys who don't have a clear understanding of the term and use it fallaciously? What do you mean by moe anyway? Slice-of-life shows/shows with no "plot"? Cute girls? Fan-service? Please, elucidate.
So, it is wrong to defend something that you like from (baseless) attacks? I'd be up in arms if I were a fan of violent video games and there were called murder simulators. A lot of the time, people fail to consider the context of how the media is produced and consumed in their analysis. In my opinion, moe is not there to spread bad ideology or promote the subjugation of women in Japanese society but is used by the otaku as a coping mechanism. |
||||||||
Lili-Hime
Posts: 569 |
|
|||||||
My original post didn't even attack it. I just said they should diversify.
I realize that and added manservice more explicitly but under otaku I would classify fujoshi stuff too. Nevertheless a lot of stuff with hot guys do have other things going for them (Psycho Pass, Attack on Titan), or else sport shows or what not. @ Strawberry No problem I apologize too I don't mean to be hurtful to anyone I just want more people to enjoy anime and for it the industry to grow and be more accepted in mainstream culture. |
||||||||
Alan45
Village Elder
Posts: 9973 Location: Virginia |
|
|||||||
Kikaioh wrote:
OK, I misunderstood your comment about "cherry picking" and you missed the "If" in my next comment. My whole point has been that you should watch what you like and ignore the rest. You are now saying that is what you attempt to do. Fine we are on the same page. With regard to your second paragraph quoted above, I can offer no solution. Otaku centric anime exists, ANN is going to report on it. My solution is to simply ignore shows I don't like, but apparently you are not capable of that. Complaining about it and saying it is so bad that it makes you physically ill isn't going to change anything. All you are accomplishing is getting people upset who do like all or some of it. I'm not sure I see the point. @ikillchicken So, attempting to discuss an issue in a reasonable manner makes one part of a grand conspiracy. I'll keep that in mind. |
||||||||
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
||
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group