Forum - View topicFullmetal ANNCast: Brotherhood
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Fedora-san
 Posts: 464 |
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I went back and rewatched the first FMA a few years ago after I saw Brotherhood. It really pales in comparison in my opinion. For one thing the Homunculi being based on the seven deadly sins when they're originated from human transmutations doesn't make much sense. The only real obvious arguments you can make are Envy being jealous of Ed and Al. Sloth made no sense, and Gluttony we knew absolutely nothing about, and the rest were pretty weak arguments as well. In Brotherhood, their symbolism of being purged from Father makes far more sense, not to mention their abilities and powers. Sloth being a slow but powerful brute is more in theme than having water powers.
I also find them so much more threatening and interesting in Brotherhood. Pride is creepy and ever present, Envy is downright sadistic and a treat to watch, especially his final confrontation with Mustang, and Gluttony is absolutely terrifying once he reveals his true powers. Lust, while short lived, was really awesome too and her fight with Mustang was great. I loved Greed and Ling's interactions once he took over Ling's body. Bradley was just badass, from his first fight with the Xing trio to the final battle of him taking on multiple opponents and he was just a beast of a fighting machine. In the 03 anime his son conveniently brings in his Kryptonite in the form of a former body part, which he kept in his own house for some stupid reason, and he gets defeated with relative ease. Weak. And do I even need to bring up Robo-Archer? I forgot how silly that was the first time around. He was no replacement for Kimblee, that's for sure. It also goes against the established rules of automail pretty badly. That's also another thing that kills the first series for me. My favorite characters aren't really in it much or at all. Ling, Lan Fan, Fu, May Chang. They don't talk about Xing or any of the other countries, which I feel also hurts the worldbuilding. Brotherhood's world felt a lot more fleshed out, with the origins of Father and Hohenheim, and the Xingese equivalent of alchemy. Lastly there's the ending. Brotherhood has a lot more satisfying and conclusive ending. A lot of strings were left dangling in the 03 anime and characters left with no real conclusions, like Mustang who's just sitting in a shack in the middle of nowhere. I'm also not really a fan of them introducing parallel worlds into the mix all of a sudden and Nazis and the whole movie in general. Brotherhood just felt like a more complete and neat package, and it should because it's the actual author's story rather than being half manga and half anime-only. Last edited by Fedora-san on Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SnaphappyFMA
Posts: 216 Location: California |
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Have yet to listen to the podcast, but I just have to jump in here.
I love both series to death. Like someone said above, I also resented Brotherhood when it came out. For me, it was because I loved the first series so much. But after I saw Brotherhood, I had to admit that it takes the crown. I still love FMA, but FMA:B is simply awesome. It's the series I fan-push to anime newbies as a must-see, as one of the best anime series they will ever see. I saw the final two episodes of Brotherhood at Anime Expo at a special showing where they played a video of Romi Park, Rie Kugimiya and Shinichiro Miki in the studio specially greeting the audience at AX and thanking us for being there. When spoiler[Ed went beyond the Gate to bring Al back, saying "Let's go home,"] I've never cried so hard when watching anime; I was literally sobbing. FMA:B did that to me. It's just an amazing series. I have to add though that the soundtrack for FMA was wonderful. I'd have to give the award for best music to the first series. 
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dizzon
 Posts: 338 |
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I like the '03 FMA but at the same time I don't have 'nostalgia glasses' for it either. When I first started watching Brotherhood it felt kind of awkward and goofy (the comedy bits can be a bit grating) but as it went on it really started to pick up major steam. I was damn near obsessed with Brotherhood as it came to an end, way more so than at any time during '03's run.
I honestly have not desire to rewatch the '03 version after Brotherhood. |
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TropicaliaSoup
 Posts: 18 |
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I think I watched the original FMA when I was about 12 and it was re-running all the time on adult swim. I don't think I appreciated the themes as much as I may now and I've recently started re-watching it. I have really fuzzy memories of the plot towards the end, so if I watched all of the show I may have stopped paying much attention around the homunculus Island part. I remember liking the show but it didn't really resonate with me back then.
A couple years later I started reading the manga and really loved it. I enjoyed it and still love if for all the more typical shonen tropes, but I really appreciated how expansive the storytelling was with the wonderful world building and how integral so many of the characters were to the story. I remember being excited about brotherhood because I saw that it was coming out when I was in the middle of reading the manga. I watched the first episode subbed and didn't see anymore until a couple years later when I watched the finale subbed at AX. I saw the whole show dubbed on adult swim and watched it on a weekly basis. The first 13 episodes were definitely a slog but I at least really like the look of Brotherhood so I did enjoy watching it. I found the show to be really fun after that. For the most part I share Mike's position on the two shows and like Brotherhood a bit more. That I didn't connect with the characters in the original FMA the way other people did makes me really wonder how this re-watch will turn out though since it has been like 8 years. |
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Cyclone1993
 Posts: 947 |
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FMA is by no means a bad series, in fact it's pretty great. The moments of emotional impact on me anyway, were much stronger than anything in Brotherhood. But a lot of the plot points near the end don't make a whole lot of sense, as others have said. Plus Dante just doesn't have a whole lot of development.
In Brotherhood, I like how it brings everything together. All the plot points combine and I don't feel like anything is sacrificed in exchange for that. It has better world building, plus some of my favorite characters and moments never even happen in the original. Also being someone who has studied the seven deadly sins, I like how they are approached in Brotherhood. Considering for the most part they die in the order of sins from least terrible to most terrible, and the die in a way that matches the punishment Dante describes for them. spoiler[Lust burned alive by a womanizer, gluttony consumed by Cerberus which is Pride in this case, Envy is the one I'm not sure about, Sloth is impaled on spikes, Wrath is dismembered, Greed the first is boiled in oil for his most valuable thing, and Pride has to become a member of the humans he despised. It all comes full circle. Plus throw In the fact that Hoenheim wasn't a jerk in a Brotherhood and I definitely prefer it. ] |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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This is true for me for several shows I love with good dubs, and that includes FMA. (Ouran is another one, which is probably not a huge surprise -- it has a lot of the same voice cast, after all.) Along with just being attached to that English dub cast and script, I find that good dubs keep me feeling more engaged with the show than reading subtitles, so with something as long as either FMA is, it's pretty much a must. I've watched subs for the Conqueror of Shamballa movie subbed and isolated episodes/scenes, because I watched them with friends who really dislike Vic Mignogna as Ed. But when it comes to the full series, it's the dub all the way for me. |
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TonyTonyChopper
Posts: 257 |
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definitely want more of Gantz and Berserk anime just responding to the question.
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Maidenoftheredhand
 Posts: 2634 |
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Have not listened to the podcast yet but hearing it was not as one sided as I feared (which I am thankful about) I will give it a listen, probably on Monday because everyone needs something to get through Monday's.
Anyways I will say I prefer Brotherhood because it follows the manga but that doesn't mean I automatically think straight manga adaptions are better, I just vastly prefer the manga storyline to the first FMA anime. Although I do have a funny way of showing it since I don't own any of Brotherhood and own the original FMA in its special edition tins plus the SE of conqueror of Shambala. I do however own all the manga in English & Japanese plus the Japanese special editions of the manga so that shows you where my biases lay. If I discuss something about Brotherhood it may actually be from the manga. Anyways I want to discuss theme as I feel Brotherhood is just as thematically rich as the first series. It's themes are just different and less cynical if you prefer. Anyways the following spoils the end of both series. I am assuming that is okay though. Interrestingly both series end with breaking apart equivalent exchange. Although as where the first series ends with the message that sometimes you do give something and get nothing in return. Whereas in Brotherhood the brothers try to overturn the principle by saying instead of an equal exchange let's say we give more in return. In Brotherhood the theme is about giving not losing (or not expecting anything in return) Another difference is at the end of the first series Ed and Al go into the parallel world they have each other but they leave everyone else behind. In Brotherhood Ed and Al stay connected to everyone that helped them. They travel in different directions to thank everyone that helped them get Al's body back. Ed and Al are also much more independent of each other in the Brotherhood story ( although this doesn't mean they don't love each other any less) Going back to that Ed sacrifices himself in the first series to save Al because he doesn't want to involve anyone else but an important theme of Brotherhood is you don't have to go at it alone, that you should rely on others (including the Adukts around you). In Brotherhood Ed and Al were able to get what they wanted through hard work and the fact that they let others help them. Ed in Brotherhood would also never sacrifice himself because he knows what it is like to be left alone, he would never put Al through that. This is an important theme of Brotherhood and starts when Scar destroys Ed's automail. Ed thinks about sacrificing himself but Al sets him straight. This scene is also in the first FMA from what I recall but Ed does sacrifice himself in the end. Finally both series end with Ed losing alchemy and they both accept this but in Brotherhood this ties into the major theme of the story. Ed no longer needs alchemy because he doesn't have to rely only on himself (it was his pride before that made him try to do everything on his own) And in the end by losing alchemy Ed may have gained something as it takes him longer to fix something by hand but now he has time to admire the beautiful view on the roof Last edited by Maidenoftheredhand on Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 am; edited 3 times in total |
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invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2476 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
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I'm only about 30 minutes in, but one thing is striking for its absence: there is no time spent early on establishing what the series is about, who the characters are, what their backstory is, etc. It's an unstated assumption — and probably a pretty valid one — that just about everyone in anime fandom has a rudimentary understanding of FMA. Which just goes to show how much of a blockbuster it's been.
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PusoPimp
 Posts: 58 |
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Well, in terms of the point they made about Brotherhood being the definitive Fullmetal Alchemist in the future due to it growing as a result of re-running on Toonami, Jason Demarco who created and runs Toonami said that Adult Swim's license expired and said of it "Contract was up, sorry. Hate to do that but Adult Swim had been running it for years, it was time to move on.". I also recall him saying something along the lines of kinda doubting they'll play Brotherhood again. So maybe it doesn't have that edge.
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DigitalScratch
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My main gripe with the first FMA anime, and what ultimately makes Brotherhood so much better to me, was the ending. The "Alternate Universe" idea felt like it completely came out of left field, and while I understand there is some sort of explanation for why- I still think it was an unnecessary twist that the story didn't need to resort to.
I do have a question though- I've been hearing other fans say that this was Arakawa's original ending for the series and she changed it due to how fan's responded to it, but I haven't seen proof of it. Can anyone here prove if this statement is true? |
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Videogamep
 Posts: 564 Location: CA |
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The way I've heard it is that Arakawa approved of that ending but it wasn't her original ending. |
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Greed1914
 Posts: 4559 |
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That was something that came to mind when the topic of which was getting more exposure came up. Also, the reruns for Brotherhood were on pretty late, so that might have diminished the amount of exposure Toonami actually gave to Brotherhood after its initial run. Aside from Bebop, the later slots for Toonami are mostly populated by things that are under original license or were Cartoon Network originals, so I'm inclined to believe that Brotherhood's TV exposure is over at this point. Another thing that is worth mentioning on this particular topic is that many of thee more casual anime viewers that watch Toonami seemed to have no idea what Brotherhood was when it first aired. I was on the AS boards quite a bit at the time, and there were multiple discussion threads with people completely confused about why they were seeing this "same but different" show. Whether that tips in favor of the first or second series, I couldn't say. |
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ittoujuu
Posts: 164 Location: SoCal |
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Very interesting to hear what everyone had to say, and I was surprised that there was actually a broad range of opinions. Zac didn't come down nearly as hard on Brotherhood as I expected; it was nice to have him as a sensible voice in the middle that can see the merits and shortcomings of each.
I fall more on the Mike Toole side and pretty much disagreed with Hope all the way through, but...just different perspectives there. I think the big thing I took away from this podcast was that the two shows have that same core, but which someone ends up liking more is more about the way they wanted to see this world and this material presented. I'm an adventure serials-type fan; was amused that Indiana Jones came up because to me, those are some of the most "pure fun" movies I can think of. I really dig that kind of pulpy, quasi-mystical adventure. That's not to say the first series doesn't have its merits, though. When I first watched FMA 2003, I found myself kind of split. I really liked the "core" of it - the setting, the cast, the characters with their pain and longing...but I thought the storyline was bad. The homunculi's origins were bad. Dante was a hugely lackluster villain. 2003-version Wrath was teeth-grindingly annoying (sorry, Hope). Much was made of Brotherhood's pacing over its first 13 episodes, but I don't think that was any worse than in the original series, where after the strong two-parter in Lior that began the series, there's a giant block of totally forgettable filler episodes that add almost nothing of value and comprise nearly a quarter of the series' run time. Once that filler block is cleared, you get into the arc with Hughes, Tucker, Lab 5 - the content that's covered by both series, but is admittedly done better in FMA 2003. Part of the reason that's so, though, is because they didn't have a lot of content to draw on when the first series was made, so they milked everything they DID have from the manga for maximum potential. Surprisingly, that often worked out to the series' benefit, particularly in that arc. When people remember how good the 2003 FMA is, what they're usually remembering are parts of the show from (roughly) its second quarter. Looking back now, the things I think FMA 2003 did better were that aforementioned content covered by both series, the Ishbal conflict, and the soundtrack (Michiru Oshima turned in some great, understated tunes for that first series). In all else, Brotherhood was more the series I had lamented the 2003 FMA for not being back when I watched it. Alchemy was more kinetic, the stakes were larger (while still feeling continental and not wholly global like some fantasy RPG), things felt more dangerous as a whole, and I honestly liked the strange mysticism of "Father" as the original homunculus, strange though his design may have been. Greed, who had always seemed like the coolest homunculus even back in the original series, finally got a chance to develop as a character, which was pretty cool. Even looking at something like the 20-ish episode "Promised Day" sequence, it sounds terrible on paper - devoting that many episodes to the events of a single day - but it actually worked. The pacing gaffes of the first thirteen episodes weren't as distracting as I'd been led to believe, and for the rest of the series, I was on a ride. There's a lot of ground to cover in Brotherhood, and I feel that it earns its episode count. It just feels more complete and fully-realized as a series in a way that the first show doesn't. Last edited by ittoujuu on Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Angel'sArcanum
 Posts: 303 Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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I was really thrown off when Mike said the 2011 version of Hunter X Hunter is darker than the original from the getgo...it's the opposite really, and I happen to fall into the 1999>2011 camp myself for up to the end of the Yorknew OVA because the Greed Island OVAs were really poor and the 2011 version made them fun again. 1999 is much more foreboding and deliberately slow with its pacing to give more dread and ambient mortality to a lot of the events transpiring. The disparity is much larger than it is with the FMA anime I find. I mean if you compare the Kurapika vs Uvogin fight alone, the 1999 version is visceral and resembles Rurouni Kenshin: Trust and Betrayal in its style [they share the director of Kazuhiro (?) Furuhashi between them I know] meanwhile the 2011 version uses more flat yet starkly vibrant colours and the choreography and character rendering is much more smooth and a bit softer and feels distinctly more "shonen-y" in my book.
Also, as far as the ending bit with Roy's eyesight is concerned: when I saw that in the anime that was one of my detractors as well, but I guess the story loosely plays with the idea that they are forging a better present and tomorrow by expending the souls of the past, and that's an argument I tend to hear from people in defence of Brotherhood but again the economic direction doesn't really weigh too strongly on it which is kind of annoying and ultimately still leaves me against that whole notion. Then that joke about the eye-holes had me dying; so brutal, but nice one Zac  .
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