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Puella Magi Madoka Magica (TV + movies).

SunnyJ wrote:

There is hole in everything dealing with time travel/alternate universes as if you take that there are an infinite number of universes with infinite number of different realities there has to be universes that exist where Homura and Madoka do not (no questions asked as we are talking about infinite possibilities...)

Quite right. Theoretically there are plenty of other universes that don't have a Homura or Human!Madoka. But Eternal!Madoka can "exist" (in the sense of "encompass" more than in the sense of "be an instance of a 3D/4D being") in any of these universes. There's nothing finite about that.

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Taking that into account this would put Homura's wish at a higher "impossibility" level than Madokas as Homura has been through more in terms of despair than this particular Madoka.

We don't need to take that into account because Kyubey states that potential power is based on the burden the girl's wish will shoulder them with, and as much grief as Homura goes through, I don't think it makes sense to say her burden is bigger than Madoka's when looking at the big picture. I'm also not sure if we can really say that the hope/grief growth after a wish is made will cause power creep; I'm inclined to think not because we don't have any solid evidence from the story as far as I recall, and Homura never got more powerful over the course of the show (she improved her technique through experience, but that's different). But please, let us not speak much more of "relative power levels," for down that path lies madness.

Besides, look at it this way, what would happen if someone wished there was no need for magical girls to begin with... This would rewrite the universe again, putting into affect another universe where Madoka would never have made the wish she did as there wouldn't have been a need for magical girls (aka. no witches, demons, etc...) so she wouldn't be a divine being at that point.

If we compare Homura from TL 1 to Homura at the post-apocalyptic scene there certainly is power creep

Additionally, Kyuubee changes his story several times throughout the anime about this. Initially he says that he'll be able to grant any wish; however, at the point of Madoka's wish he states that there is enough "grief" any wish may be possible... this is contradictory.

Where does the idea of infinite outcomes not become finite if we accept that there is no other option? Of course there are other options so what you state here is finite, meaning, there is an end at one point (the point the she has to exist everywhere, which she doesn't). Infinite means there are an infinite number of choices; heck, there's a universe that has Kyouko as a god! lul... food for everyone right?? =D

Besides, look at it this way, what would happen if someone wished there was no need for magical girls to begin with... This would rewrite the universe again, putting into affect another universe where Madoka would never have made the wish she did as there wouldn't have been a need for magical girls (aka. no witches, demons, etc...) so she wouldn't be a divine being at that point. Just thinking this way you see that there are infinite other possibilities which means not believing other possibilities is a finite representation of the infinite possibilities.

Do I really need to explain what Homura walking along a path with Guernica painted on it symbolizes?

Before I get started, this entry contains some spoilers, so if you don't like spoilers, please don't read on. [I hid them.]

I watch a lot of anime, but there are two genres I really never watch: anime for kids and anime for girls.

The title of Magical Girl Madoka Magica has the words "magical girl" in it, and it reminded me of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, a show that I didn't care for. Whether or not Nanoha was for little girls aside, I didn't get through all of the show, but I did watch enough to get a feel for the story in general. At first, when I saw Madoka I had a feeling it was going to be a Nanoha knockoff. Right from the beginning, I thought it was starting off and proceeding in a similar way, so I quit watching it. [He's right; have you watched Nanoha's first episode lately?]

Really, and this doesn't just apply to anime, there are lots of works, such as dramas, that just make minor changes to characters and setting and leave almost everything else the same. However, interestingly enough, even if people know the story is borrowing heavily from something, and even if they know how the story is going to turn out, there are a lot of people that can enjoy watching that kind of show. If that weren't true, there would be no good explanation for the large audience of works like Mitokoumon [a period drama that has run since 1969 and is still going!], which have what we can call a VSOP (Very Special One Pattern).

I know from experience that the reality of it is that there are a lot of people who want to watch something that they "know" because they get a sense of security from watching a story unfold when they know how it is going to end, even if they don't know that particular story. Because of this, I had a feeling that Madoka was going to be "that kind" of anime, which is why I quit watching it.

However, from the ward residents who like anime [not sure what ward], I heard that Madoka was really good and they recommended it to me, so I went back to watching it. When someone recommends a work to me, chances are good I'll take that recommendation to mean it's something with merit, so I gave Madoka an honest chance.

The characters have a cute and likable design that young girls would like. At the same time, the style is similar to what guys who like cute characters would enjoy. As I mentioned before, I don't really have much interest in young girl characters; I prefer other character designs to these.

That said, by the time I finished the third episode, the kind of show this really was became apparent, and I realized this wasn't a show for kids. This show presents questions and philosophical messages and asks the audience to think about them.

For whom do people labor?
Is it for the sake of others?
Is it for their own sake?
What will people do when they come face-to-face with death?

This show is full of deception. For instance, don't be fooled by the cutsey character designs; what happens in the story is actually rather brutal.

When people do something for others... Are they really doing it for others?
When people do something for themselves... Are they really doing it just for themselves?
Those who you think are good... are they really good?
Those who seem bad... are they really bad?
What will people do when they are betrayed?
If you hold people to a standard, will you be angry when you are betrayed?
Or if you have lost faith in people, will you take betrayal in stride without being angered?

What you thought you did for the best turns out to work against you.
What you thought you did for the best brings disaster to others.

The best of intentions won't necessarily mean the best result, for yourself or others. But there are people who live selfishly, and maybe it is because of that selfishness that they are able to live?

In order to gain this strong power, one must sacrifice something; without a sacrifice, the power of a "magical girl" cannot be obtained. People may not understand you're trying to help them, even if you devote your efforts to them. Magical girls are not ordinary people; that is, compared to a normal person, a very unreasonable demand is placed on them. Thus we call a normal person of whom an unreasonable demand is made a magical girl. "If you're going to say it, then why don't you walk the talk? (Though there is no certainty you can.)" It is very interesting to replace "magical girl" with "statesmen" in this paragraph and think about it that way.

Indeed, statesmen are not ordinary people. And because we do not think of them as ordinary people, by placing such demands on an ordinary person, we recognize those people as statesmen. [I don't think this is a totally accurate translation, but it gets the gist.] But if statesmen who seem to be able to walk their talk were not in actuality far removed from the best of ordinary people, they wouldn't even have that capacity in the first place. And so, because a statesman grows distant from ordinary people, it becomes difficult to decide how one [statesman] should conduct himself [as their point of view diverges from the layman's].

spoiler[By they way, the job of these magical girls is to hunt witches. However, these witches are the shape of things to come; their twisted form is what awaits the magical girls. Just like a girl matures and becomes a woman, a magical girl matures and becomes a witch. This setup in which magical girls hunt witches is quite surreal.

I think I understand why Madoka is referred to as "Chidamari Sketch" now. [This is a pun on "Hidamari Sketch" which as you may know is a comic about young artists by Ume Aoki, who drew the character designs for Madoka. "Hidamari" means sunshine. "Chidamari" means puddle of blood.]]

This is an anime that adults should watch.

Character design: I’ve seen many bloggers comment how the character designs in PMMM are ugly or deformed. Well, I think this slightly deformed character designs were used deliberately to deemphasize the sexuality of the characters. While this model might not persuade every viewer from viewing these girls with lustful eyes, I think the deformed character designs were a calculated move to echo the serious nature of the show.

Madoka’s constant crying: As I’ve mentioned before, Madoka is playing the role of a Jesus Christ like character in this creation of God narrative. So, Madoka’s constant crying is completely justified in the context of the narrative. Madoka is the embodiment of a pure and holy entity, so every time she has to witness the suffering of the magical girls it is like having a chainsaw jammed into her still beating heart.

I think we are invited to use a surface level analysis of Guernica and conclude that from the moment Homura encounters Madoka, she is forever destined to walk a path that is full of suffering, death, and chaos. That being said, other more complex interpretations of Guernica might apply to Homura’s role in the narrative, although I personally believe we should not dwell on this beyond a surface level analysis.

And about the character designs... I think they create a kind of dissonance that is very effective in the show. At first I didn't really like them that much, either, but I did warm up to them. That said, I haven't warmed up to them to the point where I'd buy figures or character goods, or decorate my PC/phone/PSP/etc. with them. They work great in the show but they're not character designs that I really dig outside of that context. Which is almost a shame considering how much beautiful fanart there is...

You're saying that you wouldn't even be tempted by this D'AW SO ADORABLE nendoroid figure right here? I mean, I'm no merchandise collector myself, but if I actually had the money to spend on desk and shelf ornaments without feeling guilty about it afterwards, I'd think I might get this.

Well, that is the signature style of Umi Aoki. That's an interesting theory though, if that's how Shinbo's(?) decision on the character design went down.

spoiler[these characters are too cute and child-like to suffer this much!]

Considering how some series end-spoilers (or spoilers close to the end) have already gone un-tagged at the start of the page.... it might be a good idea to have a separate thread for those that are now only going to start seeing the series for the first time.

. . .

However, if we are going to be talking about anything that has to do with the yet-to-be-legally-streamed episodes of the series and such, like episode 10 stuff while we've only just begun March, that would be kept in this thread-- unless we're cool with always adding a disclaimer of spoilers for yet-un-streamed episodes here before the spoiler-tagged message in the hypothetical thread for the newer viewers of Madoka.