Forum - View topicSo can someone explain why DC had a problem w/ Tenjo Tenge, but...
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GATSU
Posts: 15450 |
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They have no issues with Preacher or rebooting Teen Titans so Starfire now looks like a porn star?
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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TenTen is originally a manga for boys in their (late) teens. The Japanese publisher prefered the manga to be marketed towards the same audience in US. However, the original content was more like M-rated material, not T+. Edits, which were approved by the original mangaka, were made to comply with the Japanese publisher's wishes and improve the series' reach.
Most American comics are bought by and marketed towards adult men nowadays. Extreme violence and women fighting crime dressed like strippers have been common for atleast two decades. So, why does any of that come as a surprise? That doesn't mean I think DC did the right thing by alienating (no pun intended) yet another group of readers by the way. Now, go troll somewhere else. |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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I think you need to look up what 'troll' actually means, Tamaria, because it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Anyway, for one, there's actual sex/nudity in Tenjo Tenge while DC comics doesn't have that stuff in their mainstream books. Yeah, Starfire is in a swimsuit posing like some model, but that's not graphic like TGTJ is. American values, American censorship, etc, especially with a comic-book company like DC which had to go through the CCA back in the day. Also, I suppose they might have tried aiming it at kids or something, I never really paid attention to their manga division. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Look up some posts by Gatsu. The word 'troll' suits him.
Depends on what you call mainstream. Some of the best selling Batman graphic novels are also the most graphic and controversial ones. While the cartoons on TV may keep up the illusion that the comics are for kids, the actual comics have become darkier and, well, sexier. Both DC and Marvel are well aware that comics have become a niche market and are clinging desperately to their remaining readers, mostly straight males age 18-35. Perhaps even a bit older.
Teenagers, they're aiming at teenagers. Unlike comics, manga are now seen as the domain of teenagers. Starfire's make-over and TenTen's edits are both desperate attempts to appeal to certain audiences. They may even by justified by sales numbers, who knows. Well, DC does, I guess. If most of your (leftover) readers are adult men, it makes sense (kind of) to reboot series to match their (assumed) tastes. If you want your manga to be bought by teenagers, you want it to be available in regular bookstores and not be wrapped in plastic. That doesn't mean I agree with these decisions, but I can kind of see what a company would make them. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15450 |
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Tamaria: But teens can pick up copies of Preacher pretty damned easily.
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ZepysGirl
 Posts: 470 Location: NY, NY |
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Actually, the first issue of Catwoman has a sex scene. The last page of that issue has Batman and Catwoman apparently doin' it... on a rooftop. In costume. "And most of the time, the costumes stay on." Are you actually trying to say that there's no sex/nudity in mainstream comics? o_0 I almost got turned away from Fables, one of Vertigo's most popular series, because of all of the sex scenes. And I really don't know what's going on with DC's rating system, so I don't know why someone at that company thought it would be a good idea to majorly edit a title like TT in the first place... in retrospect, it really seemed like a PR disaster waiting to happen, and it turned a lot of potential fans off of CMX. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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To be fair, it's likely that CMX was run by entirely different people, with DC only making a few major decisions. There were actually plans to publish TenTen unedited, but in the end the whole 'must market to teenagers' thing won. Funny, because the ratings CMX books got actually made sense. As for DC Comics, I think they're trying to cheat the system. M-rated titles are often hidden away in stores or not put on the shelves at all. Since these comic ratings aren't regulated in any way, it's quite easy to just slap a 'T' on it and call it a day. In the worst case scenario it upsets a few parents, which will give the title a lot of free publicity. Controversy sells, so it's a win-win situation for DC. |
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TitanXL
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I don't read Fables, but that's not a mainstream title, that's a Vertigo title. Mainstream as in their flagship DC Universe characters and stories, nothing under the Vertigo line. Unless there's more to it, that thing you linked to isn't anywhere near what TJTG has. The 'sex' scene is really just a girl sitting on a guys lap, and a girl in a swimsuit/bra. TJTG has actual bare breasts with nipples, exposed testicles, graphic sex and groping, and so forth. Stuff you'll never see in DC comics no matter how many envelopes they want to push. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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As if mainstream means much when talking about American comics nowadays... The only reason the big names are still 'mainstream' is because we see them in movies and cartoons, which are often (far) more suitable for younger viewers. Plus, there's the whole thing of comics not having a wide appeal as a medium, so... yeah. As for Vertigo, some of those titles do/did really well. Both Sandman and Fables sold/sell well as some of the 'big' names, won a bunch of awards and so on. Sure, these titles may not sound familiar to people who don't read comics, but as for the people who do, these are the kind of books they're buying. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I...actually kinda agree with GATSU here. I'm not sure why Tenjo Tenge should be a problem. It's not like DC doesn't publish other stuff just as graphic. My best guess is that, as Tamaria said, they we're trying to trim it down for a teen audience.
Not so much if your reboot is designed to attract new fans though. 
By that standard, neither is Tenjo Tenge. In typical Japanophile fashion you draw unequal, apples to oranges comparisons and then hold them up as a justification for your perceived discrepancy. 
Agreed. Actual superhero comics (not movies or shows, comics themselves) are not even close to mainstream. There simply isn't an American comics equivalent to the likes of Naruto, Bleach, etc. DC comics are "mainstream" in the way that otaku shows are "mainstream". They dominate their own little niche industry but have very little success outside of that industry. Now, Vertigo titles on the other hand (or the Japanese equivalent, non-otaku oriented, seinen titles) probably do make up a smaller percentage of gross sales compared to their otaku/superhero counterparts. There are certainly exceptions (Sandman, Fables, Berserk etc) but on average I'm afraid they probably do sell less. The thing I find interesting though is this: Despite selling less within their niche industry than otaku/super hero comics, they probably sell more to people outside that niche industry. That is to say, if you're not an otaku/comic nerd there is virtually no chance of you reading otaku/superhero comics. However, there is at least some chance you might still read certain Vertigo or Seinen comics. So essentially, superheros are mainstream relative to the comics industry but Vertigo comics actually have more (if ultimately still very little) mainstream appeal. So...what qualifies as "mainstream"? Hell if I know. If I may borrow a line from Bob Chipman: Comics...Are...Weeeeeird! |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Just going to point out more people read Tenjou Tenge than they do the latest issue of Batman going by sales numbers.. it ran in Ultra Jump for pete's sake, so if anything Tenjou is more 'mainstream' than Batman. In typical Americophile fashion, you miss the point and instead choose to try to get in a quick and misinformed jab.
Mainstream for American comics/DC was the implication. Flagship characters like Batman and the ilk, not Vertigo and other sub imprints. DC and Marvel still have this silly notion they can sell those comics to kids and get them interested in them, so they try to keep out the true hardcore stuff. Girls in bikinis? Fine. Actual nudity and sex? No way Jose. Vertigo, what little I found worth my time, is less restrictive on that stuff (Yet it still draws a bunch of controversy.. they made such a big deal about Yorick's penis showing up in one panel of Y The Last Man. Truly the end of times now that we've seen his wang) |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Do you actually have any real numbers to support such an assertion?
Yeah, that sounds about right. DC keeps their superhero comics on the tame side and publishes their more explicit stuff under the Vertigo label. This is largely no different* than the way Shueisha publishes their more kid friendly stuff in Shonen Jump and their more graphic stuff in Ultra Jump. Again, not sure what point you're trying to make here by comparing DCU stuff to Tenjo Tenge. Apples to oranges. Just as it would be to compare say...Preacher to Shonen Jump manga. Two entirely different target audiences. A much more appropriate comparison would be something from the Vertigo line. *Except that kids aren't actually the ones buying DCU comics anymore. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Non gimmicky crossover/first issue comics averaging about 55,000 sales per issue (Batman sold 53,481 in August) while Ultra Jump's circulation alone is more than that (not counting tankoubon sales in Japan as well as all around the world, as well as keeping in mind Japan has a fraction of the popular America does.. times it by however much the difference is and you'll get a higher number)
I don't think that works because DC's superhero stuff is still aimed exclusively at adult men, just like Tenjoy Tenge, which is a seinen title. Shounen Jump stuff like One Piece and Naruto are for kids (but obviously more graphic than, I don't know, the Disney comic line or whatever comics for kids there are) So basically DC and Vertigo are both aimed at the same audience, just different for whatever reason. It was just DC's decision to aim a seinen title at kids here, when it shouldn't have. Even then, I haven't read any Vertigo books that are as graphic as seinen are, so I'll still say it's just their own company practices, it's just Vertigo is a bit more lenient. |
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Tamaria
Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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In Japan. In the US, TenTen is a niche title. Even within the fandom it isn't that widely read. When I think of maintream manga outside of Japan, I think of Detektiv Conan in Germany or something.
Ultra Jump lies somewhere on the border between shounen and seinen and is drawn for boys in their late teens, let's say age 16-20. But since there are some cultural differences between Japan and the US, a lot of the series are seen as 18+. CMX made the mistake of agreeing with the Japanese publishers and going for an audience similar to the original Japanese audience: boys in their late teens. In order to do so, they had to make some adjustments to make a T+ rating seem reasonable compared to other manga out there. Back when the English TenTen first came out seinen manga weren't as high up on the ladder yet, so that's another reason why that decision must have seemed to make sense at the time. As for DC age age-ratings, I pretty sure they simply don't give a shit. A niche medium, a narrow audience, why bother with correct ratings when the people buying your comics are too old to care? (On a sidenote, seinen doesn't mean 18+ or anything. It just means its original audience was adult men. It's not that uncommon for a seinen manga to have a much larger appeal. Yotsuba&! and Twin Spica are good examples.)
Knowing DC, 'new fans' probably means 'readers who aren't reading Teen Titans yet'. Fishing at a different pond is scary, you know? |
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Soundmonkey44
 Posts: 1243 |
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Star Fire isnt on the Titans anymore, she's on the outlaws..and that comic is horrid, so yeah. Also prbly cause DC wanted Tenjou to be their Naruto...But as we all know that didn't happen. EDIT: Also people who think U.S. comic publishers like to stay on the "Tame side" with their main imprints...obviously don't read that many comics. *looks at Sentinal ripping Ares in half in Seige, or the fact one of DC's new Voodoo comic is about a stripper with supernatural powers* But yeah DC never should have gotten into manga in the 1st place, and thankfully they no longer are & other companies can handle their old properties. |
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