Forum - View topic"No one gets left behind"
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Boomerang Flash
 Posts: 1021 |
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No replies to this topic when I posted it on the manga forum, but that doesn't stop me from trying it here--unless there is some rule against it. Most of the material was a direct copy and paste from where I posted it before. There is, however, a concern that made me post this topic on the less active manga forum at first, and that is in paragraph two.
Manga is often serialized in a magazine for its initial appearance. These magazines generally have an identified demographic (shounen, shoujo, seinen, and josei being the four most common, I believe). Thus, it is easy to identify most manga titles by these demographic labels. Television channels, on the other hand, do not fall as easily into into these demographic categories--and if they are, it's not as well known (and I don't even known how OVAs can be classified this way). If an anime has a manga counterpart, then we can use the manga demographic, but this can be quite misleading, as the anime adaptation is often tweaked to have a broader appeal than the manga. Since this topic is strictly concerned with shounen titles, it is possible that we'll run into problems with classification during the course of the topic. It is probably easier to think of the label shounen as a genre label--correct or not--for the purpose of this discussion than to try to identify the target demographic of a particular channel and broadcast time. The topic is concerned primarily with shounen action titles, which should be fairly easy to identify by internal characteristics rather than demographics. I was looking through some anime/manga reviews (professional, para-professional, or reader), and an often delivered criticism is that the title is "generic shounen tripe." The criticism is often used as an umbrella phrase that is meant to carry a large set of connotations--one of which seems to be that the title in question is an action series, usually involving combat dominated by cold weaponry--and is often without further justification. There are some entries which delve into the matter further. The contents vary, but a disturbing number of them cites the following as part of being "generically shounen": "The protagonist is an energetic, determined young person." Often, "person" is replaced by "male or male with breasts," but even without the snide substitution, it's just too hard to take these people seriously. A related criticism, however, is much more difficult to dismiss: "The protagonist chooses to sacrifice his mission and endanger his life in order to save his friend, his ally, an innocent bystander, or even a villain." This happens often enough that I can't help but expect that the protagonist, after declaring that he is not leaving his friend behind, should cross his forearm with a nearby ally and shout "hoo-ah"--probably because I'm a cynic (and a strategy game fan) who believes in sacrifices. Which brings me to the following question: What are some shounen action titles where the main character does not follow the belief of "no one left behind"? This, of course, requires the presence of situations where the protagonist has to make such a choice--and choosing to leave the other behind means sacrificing him rather than simply leaving him against a reasonably evenly matched opposition to save time. Ironically, an example came to mind some days after I posted this in the manga forum, but I can't post it here because it doesn't have an anime incarnation. |
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bonbonsrus
 Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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Wow, I thought about this, and I can't think of a single instance. I do recall a few episodes ago in the Naruto filler as being aired on CN where for a second the team thought they were leaving someone behind, Kakashi was saying something to the effect of "we can't risk more, sometimes you have to leave comrades behind" or some such thing, but it was only a ruse since others were following them to make sure they left. That is the closest I can think of at all. You probably aren't getting replies because it just is so rare to non-existant people can't contribute to this. |
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Kelly
Posts: 868 Location: New York City |
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Very interesting question. One example springs to mind, but I'm going to be extra cautious and post it as a spoiler within a spoiler containing the name of the series I have in mind, as this isn't a "readers beware" post like the most memorable death post a while back, and even noting that a series will have character deaths in it could be considered a spoiler to alot of people.
spoiler[Two notable instances occur near the end of Last Exile. spoiler[One character in a group attempting an escape realizes that they're not going to make it if someone doesn't buy time. Knowing that he's the only one in the group combat proficient enough to last long enough to buy the time needed, he stays behind, clearly in a position where there's no way he's going to get out himself. The main character protests, but ultimately lets him go to his death when the character threatens to mercy-kill them all rather than let them be recaptured and probably tortured before being killed. In the final episode, the main character is forced to chose between completing a mission that will probably save thousands or even eventually millions of lives or abandoning a mentally unstable friend clearly in deep trouble. He chooses the mission, and the friend dies. To make matters even worse, this friend was the suicide mission volunteer's best friend - and the primary person for whom he sacrificed himself.]] |
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Boomerang Flash
Posts: 1021 |
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Death is the expected result of a comrade who is left to die, but it isn't the only possibility. Actually, another possibility is that the "former ally
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LKK
 Posts: 426 Location: Virginia, USA |
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What about Get Backers and the first Limitless Fortress arc? (I use the English name for the place because I can never remember the Japanese version.) spoiler[Since the arc begins with the team all together, leaving a member behind to face a death fight serves as a way to break apart the team and gives each member his / her moment to fight the big fight with his opponent. ] Would this qualify as what you're talking about? |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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I don't think Get Backers is quite the same thing. When the characters split up, they are all moving forward. They are headed into dangerous, potentially life-threatening situations, yes, but no one is left behind in a dangerous positions. spoiler[(Hevn was at no risk in the dice room, and it was thought she was in little to no risk when the rest of the team left her outside of Mugenjou/the Infinite Fortress)]
And if you go a little further as to how that plot arc ends, spoiler[specifically, Ginji saving MakubeX from killing himself,] you get the exact "no one left behind" thinking that was described in the original post. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I racked my brains for a little while. This was the best I could come up with:
spoiler[Goku, Dragonball Z. Buu Saga, Kid Buu Arc. As Earth is destroyed, he saves Mr. Satan instead of Chibi Trunks and Goten.] Lame, yes. Just goes to show how difficult the question is. In real life, it happens in the military, though not if can be helped. Blackhawk Down is an example of where the military refuses to abandon their own. However, I once watched a film in which a true story from WW2 was re-inacted. On the way to Europe by sea, bored American soldiers decided to play pranks. One such prank involved throwing a fellow soldier (a farm boy who was a weak swimmer) overboard. They tossed a life preserver in after him, and one man went to inform the captain to halt the ship. But, the ship was part of a convoy, and could not stop. The soldiers - horrified at what they had done - were left to watch as their comrade receded in the distance, astern of the ship, alone in the Atlantic. The line was then uttered, "So much for no man left behind". A true story, and a pretty sad one at that. If a similar scene played out in an Anime, it would be so powerful. Too bad that true, realistic tragedy is alien to the writers of Shonen Anime. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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To Boomerang Flash: I answered your thread in the Manga forum.
I found this story hard to believe. First, those pranksters would be court-martialled. Second, while Liberty Ships are too vulnerable to submarines if stopped at sea to pick up men in water, escorting destroyers should be able to do that then catch up later (being faster than cargo ships) or summon a PBY to do so. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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True, I admit it is hard to believe. I am going solely on the word of the film (it might have been a made-for-TV documentary) that it even happened, and (if it did) that it transpired in the same way as the dramatisation/re-inactment depicted. It was a year or so ago at least, and I unsure as to the channel it was shown on, let alone the name of the film. Still, it was powerful imagery. I just wish more Anime were brave enough to incorporate such material. Though Shonen is mainly aimed at kids, I am surprised that tragedy is not depicted more often in all Anime (and I don't mean the contrived - but still gripping, I admit - Rumbling Hearts plotline). |
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indrik
 Posts: 365 Location: yonder |
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It's a pretty common statement in just about any book on the Pacific theater that if people fell overboard, convoys would not stop. I dimly recall reading the same story from both the American and Japanese perspective in a book about Guadalcanal. Trailing ships would be informed that somebody fell overboard and would help if they could, but no one would stop a boat or break formation for a single person that fell over, not even part of a destroyer screen. I'd be surprised if they would sortie a PBY, depending on who it was that fell over. There are plenty of reports of doing so for downed pilots, even a couple of stories of diverting submarines to pick up pilots, but a whole lot more time and money went into training a pilot than your average enlisted man or sailor. I've never heard of anybody joking that way, though, and of course my knowledge is entirely derived from a lot of reading and a (very) little talking to people who were there, plus I'm just some random guy on the internet. But I did bother to post, so take it for what it's worth.
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Ishmoo
 Posts: 413 Location: Fredericksburg, VA |
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HMMM. Tough one. Just recently in D. Gray Man spoiler[the gang has begun leaving members behind to face what appears to be certain death. They left Kanda behind to fight Skin Boric (awesome name btw). He eventually won but fell into the abyss (presumed dead) and they left Krory behind to be taken out by Jasdavi (also presumed dead). ]
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Also there was the instance of spoiler[Queen Sophia knowingling firing on Delphine's ship even though it would probabally kill Alex the man she loved unrequitedly but would save the rest of the planet's inhabitants.] in the same series. 
As for other examples all that comes to mind is D.Gray-Man where recently spoiler[two characters have subsequently stayed behind and fought opponents so that others could pass and seemingly perished after going all out. The unstable nature of the Ark they're in makes it an impossibillity that they could have survived but even if they did they'd be trapped between dimensions unable to return. ]
EDIT: Though it seems I was beaten to that one. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Thanks indrik for replying. I guess we are all random guys on the Internet to each other. So, again, thanks for replying.
I remembered another example. In Gundam SEED, spoiler[Strike had been totaled, and the Archangel made its escape, not making the sacrifice of looking for the MIA Kira.] |
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Boomerang Flash
Posts: 1021 |
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I actually know of another example in a real robot show, but I didn't mention it because I tend to see mecha mentioned as its own genre--and usually distinct from shounen action. If mecha shows were classified into more traditional genres, it usually falls under sci-fi. Of course, these labels are not necessarily exclusive, but it was enough that I hesitated to mention.
It's from Mospeada/Robotech: New Generation. spoiler[The character Jim/Lunk had a number of flashbacks where he was shown to be essentially a deserter on the field of battle, and it doesn't look like he really changed his cowardly ways by that much.] Odd, since he is now traveling with a ragtag group of commandos heading towards the Invid headquarters. |
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Joichiro Nishi
Posts: 163 |
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In classic shounen sometimes the hero leave his friends or allies behind. It happens a lot of times in Saint Seiya, many times Seiya said: "We can't loose for the friends we leave behind". Saint Seiya is a brutal shounen, it's amazing that it was aimed to kids; the heroes, except Shun, don't hesitate in kill their enemies and self-sacrifice is a proof of friendship and courage.
spoiler[In Saint Seiya 3rd movie, Saga forced Seiya to kill him because Seiya need to become stronger for defeating Abel. When Yaoh, a bad guy, came; almost dead Saga basicaly said to Seiya that he will fight against Yaoh even when he was dying. Seiya promised to save Athena and Saga made his last attack killing Yaoh and himself. In Hades arc, Saga and his companions killed Shaka, a good guy, because it was neccesary for defeated Hades; they killed a friend for duty. In the same arc, the Gold Saints sacrificed their lives for destroy the Lamentation wall (No relation with the Sacred monument) and the main characters run away accepting that this was the only way to save mankind.] |
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