Forum - View topicWatching Streams/Downloading anime - Is it a good thing?
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Han Solo
 Posts: 57 Location: Great Britain |
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Is it a good thing?
A lot of people download anime or watch it via a streaming website, we all know it's wrong to do it; yet I have this feeling no one see's it as morally wrong at all. I'm not going to judge or badmouth people because I used to do it (that's until I decided I don't prefer sitting in front of a computer screen watching programmes) but now I'm buying DVDs. People who copy it from DVDs to upload it are in breach of copyright infringements and people who watch/download it it well it's pretty much theft (yes it's not exactly tangible material but I'm not getting into the legal details because I don't know how property is defined in US ) Companies lose out on money and it might become a setback [though I don't see that at the moment] but there’s a potential that but I'm not going to make that presumption regarding anime shows and films, so I'll leave it at that. On the other hand anime DVDs such as Summer Wars is coming out to the UK in March, but it was made 2 years ago, can you really blame someone for download it. Also it's pretty expensive and you may not be able to refund the DVD especially after you find out its like a visual episode of an irritated bowel. So do you think downloading anime or watching it from some streaming site is a good thing to do? Or do you think it's wrong because it's not fair on the people who make the anime/ or because you don't want to be prosecuted? |
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ShinobiX
 Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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Save yourself. Ultimately, the answer is no. Just look at other threads and no dont post moronic redundant comments people.
Side A (the minority): -post the most -It's wrong (weakest argument, but true) -copyright law -stealing (wrong- improper term) -thieves -counterproductive (most people have no evidence to back it up) -a lot of incorrect ridiculous legal claims -the redundant weak ignorant comment, "If I didn't pay for it, its stealing" Side B (the majority): -don't post because they find most comments stupid and funny. What most people do here -don't post because they get lynched -it's called sharing (wrong) -I don't have money so (obviously wrong) -Nobody cares (actually some truth to that claim, but nonetheless wrong) -I'm downloading not uploading (post 2005 this claim became wrong) -I download in a different way not covered by the law (ding ding ding. Only correct answer) Typically what happens in this redundant well stupid thread. Your topic isn't stupid. It's the retarded posts, the community. Notice how many wrongs I have listed on both sides. Now....you: -2 years lol Patents on avg last anywhere between 14-20 years -copy right protection is 50-100years. Can you blame someone? Yes -You can't avoid legalities when mentioning words like patent, copyright infringement, downloading because the legalities is what this whole issue is focused on. -You don't wanna talk legal, then don't use the terms -It has been established already that this is not a moral issue, but a legal one -The answer to your questions is Yes and No. I could make good arguments for both, but that is it. Pros and cons. However, trust me, you'll typically see what is in Side A and Side B aka garbage. Last edited by ShinobiX on Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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killmyself
 Posts: 168 |
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If they really cared about the US market they would make their products available to it in a timely fashion. Crunchyroll is proof that it can be done and also that the people who actually own the rights to the original product don't care about making it available in the US as they would just do it themselves. It isn't a good or bad thing to do it is the smart and prudent thing to do rather than waiting 2 years to possibly get a show depending on whether or not someone purchases the rights that has a 90% chance of an awful dub.
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ShinobiX
Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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Well, Side B posted first and so it begins. Now last time I'll comment because I am a jerk lol. See. Didn't swear. FYI, ur logic and reason is garbage Mr. killmyself: It's neither wrong or right. It's just the smart and prudent (careful) thing to do. In other words, pirating online is a safe alternative that helps everyone. Pirating doesn't hurt the industry because it's not wrong or right(makes no sense/ lacking). It's safe because no legal fees and popo do not exist. Basically, you have the perspective of the typical anime consumer. You only have the interests of yourself at heart. Refer to bold. Furthermore, you give off the impression that you don't care about the consequences your actions have on the anime industry. Any rational unselfish person would know this ideology is wrong: "Pirating is not wrong because it only benefits me." Closer to what you wrote: Pirating isn't bad because I don't have to wait two years for an awful dub. Refer to what's underline. oO I know, but that is what you are saying. Fits the criteria of Side B Next.... |
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Han Solo
Posts: 57 Location: Great Britain |
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My bad, should have been smart and actually checked the book, I thought "Intangible property" (under the Theft Act) included downloading music/movies . But yeah you're right on alot of things, first I shouldn't have talked legal terms (I feel like a bigger fool) but at least you've made me wise up. Also I totally now understand what you mean when you were talking about this Side A and B *facepalms* Thanks |
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ShinobiX
Posts: 889 Location: NY |
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No, no, no. Don't be mislead. That is just how I typically talk and write. You weren't offended. See people. That's called M-A-T-U-R-I-T-Y. Maturity.
You can still have this thread. Just that you'll be reading a lot of crap. Not an if. A fact. This is an informal forum after all. Closer to a blog or tabloid actually. Self- explanatory/ I can't curse anymore. People don't read or research before they post. This isn't a moral issue, but you can talk about it. All issue deal with morals. Some, like this one, more scarce than others. I would make another thread and make that statement clear. No Article 543-2 says nonsense or objection copyright crap. Just be like: Here is the issue. Now tell me how you feel about. Do you agree with me? All you have to do is give an example so that people know the format. Then you'll get the posts you want. Typically, the best threads are the ones that are concise, straight to the point, and have meaning, most importantly, they answer their own question(for everybody to see). Honestly speaking though, from my time here, subs, dubs, downloading...similar threads turns to crap real fast. Well then again, prove me wrong people? Actually RESEARCH before you post. If you gunna post your beliefs, state it and give an example. Most of you guys just state your belief without an explanation. |
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rojse
 Posts: 234 |
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I'd be interested in hearing a legal opinion on this. Is downloading all forms of media that is not in creative commons illegal, or is availability and licencing taken into account in these matters?
As for me, there are many shows that I would like to watch that have not been released in English, nor does it look like they will be - shows like "Kaiba" and "Dennou Coil" spring to mind, and there are also a lot of older anime that I'd like to watch that doesn't have an English release either. If these shows were given a DVD release at a price comparable to shows of a similar vintage and budget, I would certainly pay good money to own them. As for new-release anime, I'm torn. I only continue watching shows that I would purchase if they were released on DVD. If I wouldn't pay to watch it, I don't think it's right to watch it for free. As for shows that have been given an English release, or are certain to be, I can't agree with that for any reason. Downloading and watching every single episode of Bleach and later not paying to own anything is cheating the companies who put in the effort to make such shows available for us. |
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ailblentyn
 Posts: 1688 Location: body in Ohio, heart in Sydney |
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Legality, or perceived social disapproval, certainly seem to play a role in moral judgments, even when people consider themselves reasonably free thinkers.
I buy a lot of used anime DVD --- and you can certainly make a case that by so doing I'm avoiding supporting anime studios in return for their content in any but the most indirect of ways. And yet, because buying second-hand stuff is not at all frowned on by society, and so much part of my general habits, I find it literally impossible to feel that there could be a moral issue here at all. I can see the possibility of a moral issue intellectually, but I could never reason myself into feeling wrong for doing it. |
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rojse
Posts: 234 |
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But part of the reason why people buy new products is because they have a high resale value in the secondhand market. How much would you pay for a new anime series you haven't watched if you knew that you could not resell it on if you decided that you didn't like it or want it, for example? |
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killmyself
Posts: 168 |
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@Shinobi
It isn't wrong because they aren't being hurt by my actions at all but by their own unwillingness to profit. You are a retard pretending to be intelligent though so I guess that is too nuanced for you. They could readily provide the same products and services that fansub groups do for profit as crunchyroll has done and choose not to. This and the fact that they license anime for foreign distribution indicates that they don't view monetizing US consumers as a means of business expansion. Not having a long delay for availability clearly expands your ability to gain consumers as well. They don't directly profit off of the american anime consumer in any way because they choose not to. Which leads us to american distribution companies licensing anime and the money the original content rights holders make from that. This has expanded in recent years along with the availability of broadband internet, speed and quality of fansubing, and number of people pirating. So explain to me how these companies are being hurt by pirating again? Oh that is right by financially benefiting from fansub groups and pirating exposing their products to a consumer base they have made zero effort on their own part to exploit. Pirating makes purchasing distribution rights more viable because it creates fans. Which in turn creates demand for anime on US television and high quality hard copies which makes distribution companies money. Refusing to wait 2 years for something that is available today because no one is trying to monetize it in the present is not irrational and not wrong. It isn't available for purchase by choice that is the fault of the companies not the consumer. If you aren't selling something you aren't being harmed monetarily by someone not paying for it. Furthermore what is being downloaded isn't even the same product they will sell in the future. It stands to reason you are going to sell more of said product when it comes out if people actually know what it is and that knowledge sure as hell isn't coming from any advertising on the distribution companies part. So basically I am not wrong because everyone in this situation is benefiting from pirating. The distribution companies and the original rights holders benefiting far more so. [EDIT: Why make big-ass quotes when you can simply do @user? -TK] |
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batou37
 Posts: 455 |
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I wonder how argumentative this thread is going to become before it gets locked? Well i Guess I'll post my personal feelings on the subject because that what they are. Do I purport to say I'm right? No... it's just the way I come down one the two sides of the argument. Again I am stating no facts just my opinion. Is D/l watching streams a good thing? For who is the first question I'd ask. Is it good for the end user? Sure, anything free is (excepting the possibility that by doing so it could at a later date cause that which the user is enjoying cease to exist. I underlined that because I personally have no proof of this, it is just a deduction based on common sense. ) Is it good for the creators, licensors, etc....the answer to that in my mind is either not enough evidence or no. An argument could be made (but it is hard to be believed since it is an absolute) that if DLs and streams were not available that not one single solitary person that was watching by this method would then buy the product because they could no longer see it. If one person would buy something more though, then yes it does adversely affect them. I do not personally DL or watch any streams (other than the ones here, on TAN, CR, Funi's portal, and Hulu.) Streams to me seem to have the worst negative impact because they take what steps have been made to make anime available to us quickly and in decent to good resolution for a very small cost (which goes a long way to solve one of the main arguments for DLs), and use that against the people trying to give us what we want in order to still get it for free. Do I think it sucks we have to wait on a lot of things for years before we can see it? Yeah, but that doesn't entitle me to get it some other way. I can wait or be S.O.L in my mind. There has also been many strides made in making it so we do not have to wait so long with all the simulcasting available now. Especially if you live in N.A. (which I realize many don't) we have access to almost all of the new titles this winter season. So what if its in lesser resolution than what I'd like to see....that's a worthwhile price for me to pay in order to not have to wait so long.
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John Casey
 Posts: 1853 Location: In My Angry Center |
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It's illegal.
And legality is always subjective by those who parade shallow morality, or cheap bureaucrats who stroke themselves. I'm not a moralist, and I couldn't give five or six shits for anyone who trolls this post. Don't spend worthless hours pondering whether it's the right thing to do or not to do, according to other people. Ask yourself instead - what feels more right to you? Buying the DVDs, or stocking up on your HDD? Take me for example - just yesterday, I downloaded the Durarara!! dubs. Yet, today, I purchased the third FMA:B blu-ray set and pre-ordered the fourth. Do I really seem like the guy who cares about institutionalized morality?  I go with whatever grooves best for the moment.
So no, it's not good. But neither is it bad. To me, at least. I can't speak for other people. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7994 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Illegal?:
Yes. Either way you're virtually stepping on someone's copyrighted toes whether you downloading or stream pirated licensed or unlicensed anime. Is downloading or streaming unlicensed fansubs the only way for a non Japanese speaker/reader to see some great series that haven't been picked up by a distributor in your country for legal streaming or DVD release?: Unfortunately, also a yes. In other words it's like a necessary evil of sorts. Without it lots of shows I liked would have fallen through the cracks and not be given the attention they deserve, some still desperately need to be picked up. When these series get licensed, then there won't be a problem and I'll buy them and/or watch the streams. For the record, I have have a collection of over 800 anime DVDs which I purchased so the anime companies get a lot of money from me. The unlicensed fansubs I watch are just a supplement to that and are dropped if licensed. |
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wanderlustking
 Posts: 449 Location: Bozeman, Montana |
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I don't understand how there can be any sort of discussion on this topic (at least in the back and forth, multiple opinions-sense of the word discussion), if we don't look at it from a moral perspective. Legally, there is no debate, as fansubs are indistinguishable from bootlegs. The question that needs to be asked isn't "what is the law?", but rather "is the law right?" By right, I don't necessarily mean what is moral (although that will come up, a lot), but rather what is fairest for the greatest number of people.
There are basically two sides to this debate; both are pretty extreme, and have their pros and cons. Now that I've established the legal and ethical axioms from which I stand, I can start making fun of the side I don't like, while lauding the side I agree with as unsung heroes. This will be rather difficult though, because I think most the most vocal proponents of both sides of this issue are a bunch of tits, so I'll just do my best to make fun of everyone evenly. First of you have the good fellows at Fox News, or rather, the type of people who watch Fox News. Yes, I'm talking about old conservative people. They hate the public domain with every ounce of their soul. If a millennia were to go by without a single published work's copyright expiring, they would be ecstatic. On the other side of the equation (that's some zen shit when you think about it) you have the kinds of people who get high while watching John Stewart. To these guys, copyright law is the enemy, italics and all. It's very existence is fundamentally wrong. Both sides are locked in an eternal struggle, not unlike the one seen in the popular web series Red Vs. Blue. That may have seemed a bit grandiose, but ask yourself; don't you know at least one person that can be snugly put into either category? I think its safe to say we all know one or two, and most of us know more: people who have a fairly hardliner approach to the issue of copyright law. That is, of course, assuming they know someone who even cares at all. The fact of the matter is, most people don't care about this stuff, and can we blame them? The average American (or Canadian, or German, or Japanese) aren't affected by this on a day to day basis. Go ask your tech impaired sister how many .torrent files she's downloaded this month. If the answer is more than three, I'll buy you a beer some time. So we have some people who really love extending copyright terms, some people who want to do away with intellectual "property," and a whole bunch of people who just don't give a shit. Where does that leave the rest of us level headed people? We're left up Shit Creek without a paddle, because with public concern over the matter as low as it is, things aren't going to change one way or another. This is something that our kids are going to have to figure out, as some asshole tries to extend the copyright term another fifty years; presumably so he can continue to milk Mickey Mouse for every penny he's worth. In other words; there is hope, but not for us. By this point, you've probably noticed that I've spent a long time mocking the "extremists," and the "Joe Plumbers" out there; while offering very little in the way of an actual moderate opinion. What is the middle way? Stop me if you've heard this one; but a priest, a rabbi, and a pastor walk into a bar, and set the copyright term to ten years indefinitely. A funny joke yes, but think how cool it would be if someone actually did that shit. Maybe after ten years some sort of fee could be payed to retain the copyright ($500 perhaps? I'm sure an economist could put together a better model), but this would ensure that works that are no longer remain economically viable enter the public domain. And Mickey? If that was a big concern for you, you probably work for Disney, but don't worry; Mickey won't be going anywhere, as long as you your extension fee. TL;DR This issue is like the Matrix: we have Smith on one side (absolute authority, unending control) and Neo (stoned, zealous, and unrealistic) on the other, and a whole bunch of people stuck in the matrix; quietly wondering why everyone is trying to kill each other. Eventually both sides will clash, die, and the rest of us will go about our business with ten year copyright terms. The end. |
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SgtMustang
Posts: 158 |
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home theater pc's pwn all, so yeah dl is the way to go
I have a few anime blu rays, but I've also dl the 1080p rips, and I always watch the rips while the blu rays collect dust. The entertainment industry is ~5years behind on technology trying to push physical media that plays on dedicated players. And streaming in an internet browser is the shittiest thing I've ever seen. |
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