Forum - View topicThoughts on piracy and DRM.
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wanderlustking
 Posts: 449 Location: Bozeman, Montana |
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I'm sort of a weird pirate. I actually buy a shit ton of anime, music, and video games. Let's be clear, I pirate everything before I pay for it; but the show, movies and games I really like, I do buy eventually.
I also upload a ton, but most of that is illegal news media that I'm getting through the Golden Shield Project (A.K.A. "The Great Firewall of China). I was just wondering what others thought about this tricky subject.
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KanjiiZ
 Posts: 661 Location: Central Coast |
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I see a lot wrong with piracy, but I utterly despise the people that justify it. I have no problem with the way you do things, as long as eventually you buy something.
I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I download a lot of music illegally. That's typically because people I only like one or two songs off an album and I despise iTunes. However, I do want to go back and give back to the artists that make good music and not pirate their stuff so I'm buying CD's from now on. |
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poilk92
 Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
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Yeah i pirate put simply there is no excuse for it and no way to rationalize it but the issue isn't that your asking someone to pay for the entertainment they receive in the majority of cases you are asking people to forgo the entertainment because they cannot afford or obtain because of some moral or ethical principle.
Unfortunately that argument doesn't work because its a form or prohibition. No i am not condoning pirating BUT i am saying that you will never convince someone that its wrong enough to make them stop Last edited by poilk92 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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LordRedhand
 Posts: 1472 Location: Middle of Nowhere, Indiana |
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Hey you know what, I'm really poor too, you know living of canned pasta and all that fun stuff. But I don't use that as an excuse to harm others. I can wait to get the things I want, as then I'm not bringing harm to them. If I want a work, be it a movie, book, anime, TV show, music, whatever I'm going to obtain it legally and if that means wait, I will wait as I've got limited time and multiple hobbies, so going without anime for awhile isn't so soul-crushing that others seem to put it.
As an example this week a bought a music CD, didn't hear a single song on it before I picked it up. Why did I buy it? Because a.) It's a new release from a band I like and b.) the band advertised themselves it was on sale a week early at a certain store chain this week-only. So I don't care how much you buy, you haven't given back what you took, which is the artists and creators rights to distribute their works as they see fit too. Sometimes it means sucking it up, but if this is the worst pain you have to go through than your life must be blessed, if not getting an anime series you want in a fast manner is your greatest suffering than I think you'll survive, you'll be fine. |
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r3a93r
 Posts: 51 Location: colorado |
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i'm like you as well in that even though i torrent all the anime i've ever watched i also buy lots of anime. i feel that as long as you're giving back in some way to the industry like going to cons and buying wall scrolls and figures and dvds or just buying stuff off of amazon then you're not really doing anything wrong. when they come to seize my stuff i will willing give up all dl anime that i don't currently own box sets of. i steel music too movies not so much though mostly because to me most movies today aren't worth it. i use streaming sites to watch movies. if the US is going to crack down on anything its going to be sharing of movies, even though it really shouldn't matter we've been doing this stuff with tapes for long time.
if you haven't heard yet the anti counterfit trade agreement has quite a bit to do with file sharing. google it and learn a bit. anyway that's my too cents. 
same old conversation different thread. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Entertainment is for people who can pay to enjoy it. Sorry, this stuff is a business, not a free outdoor music festival to fight AIDS and Poverty in Africa (which is being paid for as a tax write-off anyway). Saying that you're too poor is not a justification, if you can't afford it when it costs money, then you're not a customer. That said, free [ad-supported] streaming is goddamn everywhere.
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r3a93r
Posts: 51 Location: colorado |
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streaming isn't helping either. you can't just pick one that you like and say it's ok. youtube is ad supported and videos still get removed from there.
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batou37
 Posts: 455 |
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Personally I do not D/L anything be it music, anime, etc... The only things I watch or listen to are those that I either buy, rent, or stream legally. Streaming from a legal distribution does in fact help (although not nearly as much as buying direct.) Take Crunchyroll for instance. They have said that 50% of their intake from memberships and ad revenue goes directly back to the creators, and production companies...probably more companies than that though, I would think it would involve the whole "committee" for the anime. Also Funimation must first license the series for streaming (creators and production companies get money) then they have ad revenue which they get (supports your local R1 distributor) not to mention the advertising for the release of the DVD. Some kid uploading a torrent on Youtube is in no way compareable to this and therefore does not enter the equation. As for my personal opinion I agree with a few previous posters that not being able to afford it does not justify D/L'ing it and neither does buying a lot of stuff in the long run (unless you buy every single thing that you downloaded in the past.)
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Mushi-Man
 Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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Youtube takes those videos down because they were uploaded illegally. Technically all those videos on you tube (unless it's through the companies' channel, the original creators, or the a contracted viral distributor that they hire) are illegal copies. And the companies threaten to sue youtube unless they take them down. Plus I'm pretty sure walw6pK4Alo was referring to things like hulu, ann, crunchyroll, legal youtube channels, ext. Which provide free and legal streaming anime. Anyways, personally I don't like to do the whole bootleg thing. The only form of piracy that I do is watch fan subs of series that aren't legally streaming. And I usually go out and buy legal copies if I liked it even a little bit. Sure I listen to music on places like youtube and last.fm but then I buy the cds. And I really don't seem the point in pirated copies of video games. And yes I have very small funds, but I don't use it as an accuse to not buy anime. If I like something I pay to buy it, that's just the kind of person I am. If I watch Skull Man on hulu and decide that I like it, you better bet that I'll be on rightstuf ordering a copy of it to put on my shelf. |
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poilk92
Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
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OKAY after considering some of your posts i think i have noticed something. This discussion always comes down to a case by case basis which is inherently flawed like i said in my earlier post. You wont convince someone to stop just because you consider it ethically wrong.
It is best to consider the pirating problem in a larger sense why do people pirate and how do you get them to stop? Video games are probably the best example of a pirating battleground. Stricter punishments and complicated files to make pirating harder didn't work and frankly put it was a dumb idea in the first place. As it turns out a lot of pirates don't download necessarily for the money but for the convenience. If it is easier to pirate and its free why not do it the only thing that has succeeded to any degree so slow down pirating games is competent digital distribution i.e. steam If we see something similar (fast downloads that can be bought and received instantly though the internet or some client) a lot more people will shell out the cash for their anime because there is a source comparable in convenience without the moral ambiguity P.S. if anyone knows of a service like this please tell me because i would love to see it |
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hipnox
 Posts: 143 |
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regarding piracy, i guess i had the disadvantage of being born in the wrong country.
Here in Argentina, piracy is part of our daily lives. Its part of our culture. We despise crime just like everyone else, its just that piracy is, for some reason, acceptable to just about everyone. We pirate books for school and college. Professionals use pirated software all the time. only 1 out of 10 PC/console game store actually sells non-pirated games. We buy stolen cellphones and other electronics. You can buy pirated movies in the subway or on the street. its a no-brainer people pirate so much around here. an average Xbox / PS3 / Wii title is at 350 pesos ( aproximately 90 US dollars) when a pirated game is worth no more than 15 pesos ( 3 to 4 dollars). The same applies to PC gaming. (PC titles are around 230 pesos) I used to pirate software all the time. 2 years ago, the only legal games i had where those i bought when i went to the US. 2 years ago, i snapped while playing World of Goo (pirated, of course). I decided i would start buying retail games from now on. The developers (especially the indie ones) deserved it, and i didn't deserve to play games i haven´t bought. Now i buy games instead of pirating them. Mostly i buy digital copies since most games don't even make it down here. I still pirate games form time to time but mostly to try them out before making a purchase ( remember, games are 4+ times more expensive here) which can be a real sacrifice. yet to this day, whenever i say to some of my friends that i just bought a game, they go "why?" Of my close group of friends, only 2 of us actually buy games. its cultural. its the mentality of an entire country, and it will take a long time and education to fix. apologies for my English |
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Shichimi
 Posts: 349 |
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I think a large part of the problem is the act of digital piracy is a simple process of clicking on a few links and watching a download bar progress from left to right. It is far, far harder for some people to recognise that this is equally as unlawful and unethical as moseying into a bricks-and-mortar store and taking goods off the shelf.
The 'fansubs as previews' argument holds very little weight for me when people use it as a defence, now that a lot of anime can be legally viewed streaming online. More often than not, people will download an entire goddamn series in order to 'preview' it. I can only wonder if these people ever read books, or go to the cinema. People have been relying on reviews to inform their viewing/reading decisions for a long time; how on earth is anime a special case?
As for videogames, I completely understand. Why, if only there were dedicated websites for videogames, where I could gather information and learn the opinions of fellow gamers! I can but dream of such a world. |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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As illegal as it may be I find it hard to have a lot of sympathy for most media companies. How many times have you baught an album full of rubbish with only 2 decent tracks on it? Paying 15 quid for what is basically 10 minutes worth of music is bs any way you cut it. By the same note almost all Anime "blind buys" I have ever made have been disasters. I will make it clear however that while I do not necessarily buy every series I have ever liked I spend what I can on the best ones. I have a rather extensive collection that is probably approaching if not exceeding 2k in value. So I can hardly be called a sponge on the industry myself. From my perspective fansubs have actually increased how much I have spent on Anime. As I have had the chance to get to know some series I was not sure about risk free and have subsequently baught them. Inded even sometimes spending more on Anime than I planned because a series was so good.
Try before you buy is basically a common or garden right of the consumer that has been trampled over here in the west. I can't remember the last time I went into a music store and there where the headphones to listen to stuff. Hell where I grew up in lebanon if you went into a falefal shop you didn't know most of the owners would give you one wrapped in bread and sauce and everything to try. It was just common sense to entice the consumer that way. However our local media companies are well aware that in most cases they are pedalling sh*t so have no interest in you trying. Only buying. So I don't care if I do pirate stuff as long as it is physically possible to try before I buy I will do so. Say what you like about me justifying piracy but I honestly believe that fansubs have helped the industry at least as much if not more than it hurt it. Getting access to Anime beyond what was presented on TV and in my local HMV rekindled my love of Anime (Born in the days of Akira & co) and prompted the start of a very expensive collection. Not only that but I have shared my love of anime with a few friends and they have since become paying customers of the Industry themselves. Sure there are quite a few people who just download torrents and never buy anything but they are balanced out at least by cases like mine. And even those who do not pay may introduce Anime to those who eventually will. Having said so all that is just an overview of the market. If someone personally just downloads Anime and never buys anything they are not a real fan 
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Rukiia
 Posts: 1897 Location: British Columbia, Canada |
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I want to start this off with agreeing with RHachicho over his thoughts on music and Fansubs. I mean, why should we pay for things that are crap? If an artist releases a CD that has only one song that is great, and the rest being terrible, why would we want to drop $20 on a CD with only the one good song on it? Its a waste of money. I'll at most buy that one great song off iTunes and call it quits.
I don't really have much else to say about music so here are my thoughts in regards to downloading videos: I will admit that I am guilty for watching Fansubs, but to make up for it I do buy the series when it gets licensed. I can't watch anime on Hulu or most streaming sites because its only available for United States users, so I usually have to rely on Fansubs or Crunchy Roll to peek at new titles. I find that watching Fansubs helps me decide on whether the title is worth my money or not. I wouldn't have bought 90% of my items if it weren't for viewing them online (with the exception of CLAMP titles as I'm a CLAMP consumer whore ). So, my philosophy on this ordeal is that if you watch an anime series online, and enjoyed it, then you should purchase it when its licensed to support the industry. I find that to be a fair trade. Yet if I watched a few episodes of a certain anime online, and find it to be dreadful, then I won't spend a single cent on the licensed version. I mean, why waste my money on crap? I occasionally do "blind buys" but would end up regretting it when it turns out to be awful. I then would have to sell it on sites like eBay so I can get some of my money back.
To me, Fansubs do help the industry a whole lot. At least in my case. I wouldn't have gotten into things like Hell Girl or Code Geass. I have all of Hell Girl Season 1 and 2 on DVD, and slowly been getting all of Code Geass Season 1 and 2. I may have watched all of these online but because I loved them I wanted to buy them. I found they were worth spending my hard earned money on (plus I like the shiny box sets/cases that they come in). I own almost 1000 DVDs, over half of them being anime, and I'm proud of owning so many. Granted, there are just so many anime series that are over 10 years old and will most likely never be brought over for English release. This one Yuri series that I like called Yami to Boshi to Hon no Tabibito came out in 2003 and I watched it on Fansub. I really liked it and kept hoping for a possible English release......but its highly unlikely that it will ever happen. It sucks cause I would buy it in a heart beat.  In cases like this, what else can you do? I refuse to buy Hong Kong bootlegs (with the exception of Sailor Moon Stars that I have on my shelf as I got that when I didn't know a thing about bootlegs {I know, shame on me for not getting rid of it.  } ) as the money just goes towards thieves and not the industry (plus the subs are God awful). I'm also not fluent in Japanese so buying the DVDs from the country would do me no good and would burn deep holes into my pockets. I admit I am guilty for circumstances like this but at least I support the industry for stuff that does get licensed.
Now for my disagreements. I do not agree with "Oh well I can watch it online for free so I don't need to buy it!" BS. When people proudly admit to not paying for anime/movies/tv shows because they feel they can just "watch it for free" online, it would disgust me. It especially annoys me with licensed titles that someone ripped from the DVDs themselves. I consider that to be stealing. Is $2.00-$4.00 really that expensive to rent a movie? Let alone $20 for cable TV? =/ I also have to say that I don't buy the whole "I can't afford it" excuse. There are TONS of sites online that sell used or brand new DVDs for stupidly cheap prices. Rightstuf, Amazon, Ebay, you name it. It makes me jealous of people who use Amazon.com because I see so many titles for stupid cheap, yet I can't afford them because of the shipping costs (looking at $15-$30 shipping charges for a single DVD). If you are lucky you could get a whole series for super cheap. I saw things like Kaleido Star and Sakura Wars being sold on Rightstuf for $14.99, and these are the slim case 26 episode DVD box sets. You may not be able to afford the Out of Print sets, but there are many titles selling for ridiculously cheap. You just gotta do a bit of digging on the internet (I do it all the time as, from what my title under my user name says, I'm a Bargain Hunter). So in closing, I don't frown upon people for downloading as long as they are at least going to, or are considering, buying the official release if they enjoyed watching it. I only frown upon those who are purposely being cheap and think they are awesome for downloading stuff that they "won't ever have to pay for". That kind of act really steams me and I would scoff at anyone who claims to be a "true anime fan" from watching stuff online and not bothering to buy a single DVD or pay for what they see online. And this is my two cents on the piracy subject. |
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batou37
Posts: 455 |
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Not to offend anyone, but to say the answer if something is horrible, or crap, or just shoddy work in general is that you should get it for free is just idiotic. If a song sucks don't listen to it. If an anime is full of just stereotypical garbage don't watch it. To justify downloading it illegally by saying that it is sub par work makes no sense whatsoever. With the amount of access we now have with the internet you can get a sample or preview of pretty much anything these days before you buy. If you have to pay $12 for a CD with only 2 or 3 good songs on it you really have 3 choices. Buy it for the three songs, use a pay per song service like itunes, or just decide well, even though I like them, 3 songs isn't worth $!2 to me. To say that you should be able to D/L it illegally for free because you think you are getting ripped off is an indefensible position no matter how you approach it.
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