Forum - View topicIncest in Anime?
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jetz
 Posts: 2148 Location: Manila, Philippines |
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Well 3 titles plus the one undeadben mentioned are already a lot. That means that incest themes are making it to the mainstream (Ouran, Shana and Koi Kaze are very well known, right?) And about Hentai4me's comment, anime characters involved in an incestuous relationship do not really discuss it with family members, or think about the consequences of their forbidden relationship. Most of the time, incest in anime is purely conception. Kind of an "on the surface" thing. Anyway, so about the question I included in my original post. Where does this come from? I don't think that this sort of thing happens often - if it does it wouldn't be considered taboo. Is it legal in Japan to marry your siblings? I'm pretty sure marriage between cousins are allowed, but what about siblings? |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Ohh, my favorite subject! [/sarcasm]
As far as I know it's not legal to marry your siblings in Japan at full blood, half blood I think is another story but I don't have details so I'm not going to go there. I remember the last time I got into this kind of conversation I got tore up by dormcat 
I'm surprised people haven't mentioned Angel Sanctuary, since there is clearly a relationship made known between the brother and the sister in that series, even going so far as to cross the line. I am against it, because I have a sister, and I wouldn't want to do things that I hear about with her. I've got my own life to live. |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Incest isn't limited to Japan - not by a long shot. J.S. Bach married his cousin after all.
However, the fact that incest appears in current anime -- y'gotta wonder. Do they accept incest -- now? Speaking of incest, the premise to Koi Kaze is enough to turn me away. WTF! |
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Time and Space
Posts: 167 Location: China |
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Too many people are likening homosexual relationships and the taboo that once surrounded them, and incestuous relationships, which I feel are still rightly condemned for legitimate reasons. A gay couple is like a heterosexual couple in every way, except they cannot reproduce. Due to the secularisation of political intstitutions and western culture in general, old religious traditions about fulfilling the purpose of sex by creating children are no longer considered valid, even in various Christian denominations, and probably other religions. Our governments prohibit certain sexual acts, admittedly, sometimes for bad reasons, hence homosexuality was once condemned, but concerning incest, the reason is legitimate. Sexual relations between two who share the same parents are more likely to produce offspring who have debilitating genetic mutations, therefore banning such acts seems to be the best way to prevent such misfortunes. Regardless of this, it would be supremely inefficient of our genetic survival if we were to reproduce with our blood relatives because we could not produce children, as a result, it is highly likely that built within our DNA is a process whereby we are made to recognise who our siblings are, and if we ever think about having sex with them, we do so with revulsion. There are likely exceptions, as is evident with homosexuals.
However, unless one is strongly swayed by some kind of slippery slope argument, then it is easy for someone to dismiss all of this and simply say "contraception", and if a brother and sister produce together a deformed child, then it can be aborted, which is another moral dilemma altogether. But don't forget slippery slope...innumerable abortions...admission of zoophilia...necrophilia(any objections? I can't think of any...you could pimp out your dead grandmother...ugh sorry)...even paedophilia? This topic is just wrong actually, I think I wrote too much and I thought I was on an Anime message board. In an attempt to link this to anime then, I'll finish by saying...I don't mind seeing it in anime, it's quite interesting. I'm not ashamed to admit that I would be repulsed if I saw incest in real life though, I can't help it, it's my genes! |
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Shonen Bat
 Posts: 382 |
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Yeah. Because everyone likes to talk about sex with family members .
What's the difference? Full siblings and half-siblings are the same thing: They're SIBLINGS! Just because you only have half blood siblings doesn't make it all the more right. It's still incest since you're having sex with someone of your family. Does that mean it's okay for me to "conduct" incest with my brother (I'm not gay FYI) since we're half bloods? No. Because even though we are half bloods we're still each other's family. [/Rant] Sorry if I sounded a bit mad during that rant. But anywho. Since we're talking about incest within entertainment, I've got one to add. Has anyone seen the remake of Black Christmas that came out last year? In the remake(Warning don't read unless you've either seen the movie or don't give a crap about it) spoiler[ The film's villian, Billy is revealed to have had incest with his own mother which in turn, produced his little sister/ daughter.] Also like fighterholic I'm also against incest and like him, I've got an older brother(instead of sister) who, although I'm very close to, would never dream of having incest with. I do love my brother but not sexually. Well anyways that's my two cents. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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So basically your argument against incest consists of:- 1. genetics. 2. slippery slope. Now I don't know about the slippery slope issue but I have got a basic understanding of the genetics issue. For a genetic illness to exist in a child then one of two things must have happened. these are 1. they inherited the illness from one parent (for example haemophilia) 2. a random mutation of their DNA The chance of a random mutation occurring is very low and is no higher than the chance of a random mutation occurring in a regular child, thus there is no greater chance of a genetic illness in an incestuous child than a regular child due to this factor. Now an inherited illness, depending upon the nature of the illness's genotype, either recessive or dominant, the child may or may not display the illness and may or may not even get the gene which carries the genetic illness (as each parent has two types of each gene, thus there are 4 possible genes available, one from each parent). I will use this as a key:- D = defective dominant d = defective recessive N = normal dominant n = normal recessive (only one can be recessive and one dominant, thus N and d pair or D and n pair. For simplicities sake I am ignoring multiple gene disorders and co-dominance) Possible patriarchal genotypes:- DD , Dn , dd, Nd , NN, nn Possible Maternal genotypes:- DD , Dn , Nd, NN If both parents are DD (defective dominant homozygous) then the child can only have a genotype of DD thus has a 100% chance of getting the genetic illness. (excluding mutation as it is too random and unlikely to be included) If one parent is DD and the other is Dn there is a 100% chance of the child with the illness if both parents are Dn there is a 75% chance the child getting the illness If one parent is DD and one nn there is a 100% chance of illness If one is Dn and the other nn there is a 50% chance of illness If both are nn there is a 0% chance of illness If Both are NN there is a 0% chance of illness if one is NN one is Nd there is a 0% chance of illness If both are Nd there is a 25% chance of illness if one parent is NN one is dd there is a 0% chance of illness if one is Nd one is dd there is a 50% chance of illness. (if I missed any tell me or work them our yourself and post) remember DD cannot go with NN nor can dd go with nn as neither both can be dominant or recessive (were ignoring co-dominance because that gets very fiddly and relies upon multiple factors) The chance of a child from an incestuous relationship getting a genetic illness from their parents relies entirely upon the genotypes of their parents. The chance of a child from a normal relationship getting a genetic illness relies upon the genotypes of their parents (the numbers are exactly the same). Basically incest increases the chance of an already existing genetic disorder being displayed in the child (there is also a chance of the genetic disorder being completely eliminated from the family line if incest continues on) but it does not create a new disorder from nowhere. In other words if neither parent has a disorder there child wont have one. (excepting random mutation) What if a normal person marries a haemophiliac? If that haemophiliac is homozygous for the illness and depending upon dominance there could be anything from a 0% to 50% chance of the child getting the illness as well. If you would bar incest on genetic grounds you would also have to ban all people with genetic disorders from having children as well. So sorry if you have haemophilia(or any other genetic illness)...you can't have children. N.B:- I took an Open University course in As/A2 Biology while bored at work (managers actually don't do anything except look important, get paid lots and pretend to be busy, I know 'cos I am one). This covers only the basics of the science and doesn't go into depth on multiple gene disorders or co-dominance (it mentions and explains the basics of it) and so there is every chance that some of the finer points could be wrong. the general idea is correct though. I ignored random mutation and mutagens as they are random and pretty much unquantifiable. I also ignored multiple gene disorders but the basic science for those is the same, just really really fiddly to work out. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18271 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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True, and it should be remembered that the definition of incest varies from country to country and time to time. In Japan first cousins hooking up apparently isn't considered incest, whereas it is in most part of North America. (Although there was that thing with Jerry Lee Lewis a few decades back. . .) That's why attraction between cousins is fairly common in anime. In the ancient Roman Empire, a law was passed in the late 40s A.D. to eliminate uncle/niece hook-ups from being officially considered incest so that the Emperor Claudius could marry his niece Agrippina the Younger (mother of Nero). In ancient Egypt, it wasn't unusual for Pharaohs to marry their sisters to legitimize their rules, due to arcane standards about blood rights passing only through the female descendants. In general, the Japanese seem slightly more willing than Americans to deal with incest in entertainment, but it's still definitely a taboo.
Really, if you let that alone make your decision, then you're denying yourself one of the best-written anime series ever made. It's an exquisitely delicate and sensitive treatment of the topic which spends much of the series focusing on the older brother's struggle to deny his attraction to his kid sister, and it's not at all a one-sided deal. Nowhere near as creepy as it sounds like it is, and at least a couple of places in it (one early, one late) will make many people cry. As for other series involving incest? One that may not have been mentioned in the other thread is Doomed Megalopolis, where an adult brother siring a daughter by raping his adult sister is a key plot point. (Yeah, it's a pretty twisted series in general.) |
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Time and Space
Posts: 167 Location: China |
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Considering this is a website devoted to anime, I'll try not to help transform it into a contest of who is the most knowledgeable in the area of biology. First then, I'd like to say that the slippery slope issue I did not really use as part of my argument, just an aspect that one might want to consider, because quite frankly, hypothesising that other problems or moral 'weakening' (I can't think of another way to put it) may come about if incest is allowed is clearly a faulty assertion. Each issue would have to be examined individually. When we come onto the subject of the problems caused by incest, no matter how you look at it, inbreeding causes debilitating effects to the offspring. You have kindly presented a nice example of the chances a child might inherit disease. Of course, the reason the child is unlikely to, and why you and me and most other people do not have these diseases is because our parents who may have had deleterious genes, had been able to reproduce with someone who didn't share that same gene. You seem to think such deleterious genes are rare and unlikely to happen. Do not forget that there is a huge number of possible deleterious genes that you and your parents may be carrying, it is probably very unlikely however that a complete stranger will carry the same one. Your sister or brother on the other hand will most definitely share that same gene, hence it is likely offspring will feel the effects. Therefore it is not uncommon for children who are products of 'inbreeding', whatever the generation, to be born with several defects, ranging from fertility problems, visible physical deformities, and even those well known diseases like haemophilia that are often used in examples of the inheritance of recessive/dominant genes. If then we suppose it is likely that some deleterious gene is carried (and if I recall, it has been concluded that atleast one, though maybe even two or three deleterious genetic mutations occur within one person per generation), and it is very likely that atleast one is, then it is definitely more likely that the offspring will inherit the full effect of the disorder because the sibling co-inbreeder shares the same mutation. Other effects include a weaker immune system, without going into too much complexity (mainly because I would start to be incomprehensible, to myself mostly), both parents devote some aspect of their immune system to their child, with inbreeding, the new childs immune system is not as diverse as others, had it recieved the input of a strangers, it would be stronger. I'm not pretending to be an expert in the field of biology, but this is how I understand the effects of inbreeding. You only need to look at evidence in the old monarchies of Europe to realise that choosing a blood relative to mate with is not the best way of creating a healthy child. By the way, I don't really care about the legality of inbreeding, I just wouldn't engage in incest for the above reason, and because, for psychological reasons, I recognise my siblings, including my twin sister, and could never act in a sexual way towards them, this feeling is likely due to an evolutionary process, whereby the survival of genes was impossible with inbreeding, hence now, the majority of us do not find our siblings sexually appealing. The unlikeliness of a healthy birth, if not in the first generation then later ones, is not a risk worth taking even if one is sexually excited by their sibling. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Not sure exactly what you meant about the slippery slope arguement, but generally its an arguement used against homosexuality, because it can lead to stuff like this. Not as an arguement against stuff like this specifically. One place where this arguement might fail is the key difference between examples you listed and homosexuality/incest is that the latter are both still relationships between two adult human beings. Idunno, Im not really trying to argue for incest here. Really it causes alot of problems in most cases. Really though, from a larger point of view, Incest will never be the issue that homosexuality is because it will never happen on the same scale. To be gay, all you gotta do is find someone else whos gay. for incest, you gotta find someone WHO YOUR RELATED TO who is into it. Thats kinda a limited scope. |
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Time and Space
Posts: 167 Location: China |
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Just forget I mentioned the words slippery slope, not only do I hate the phrase, but also I don't really subscribe to the idea as I said in the previous post.
Incest and homosexuality, of course they're both partaken by consenting adults, but this doesn't necessarily make incest equal to homosexuality. Homosexuality is just sexual gratification between two people. In the case of incest, the potential for producing unhealthy children is possible (for homosexuals, it isn't) and so much higher than if one reproduces with someone not so closely related, that it is wiser to stay away from ones siblings and explore strangers. A relationship not involving ones sibling is more preferable. Even if we don't take into accout what seems to be a genetically innate repulsion towards sex with a family member anyway. It would still be hard to argue against casual protected sex between brother and sister, if they are adamant that they are taking all possible precautions against creating a child. If no child is to be produced, one could argue only that a child might accidentally be produced, but then, if that incestuous couple do not find it morally objectionable, they can easily get an abortion. It is actually very difficult to argue against certain sexual acts, this is where similarities between incest and the other possible admissions arises, except where a child is involved (I admit that paedophilia thankfully seems fulproof when arguing against its legitimacy. But still, where abortion is concerned, we need to define when the foetus becomes a individual child/person with rights of their own). Take necrophilia, sex with some flesh that was once living, now this seems to be no different from ordinary sex, except that deceased tissue instead of living is involved. It may not be desirable to all people, but it seems difficult to argue against it if that person has permission from a realative of the corpse...and I'm starting to wonder why I'm still writing my views on the topic, people are going to start thinking I'm a sex crazed morbid weirdo, so I'll swiftly stop. In fact this has nothing to do with anime and is becoming quite pointless, so I may have to retire on the subject.  hurrah!
Last edited by Time and Space on Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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LuckySleven
 Posts: 426 Location: Refer to page 2 |
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I don't really care if it's a brother+sister/sister+sister/brother+brother incentuous relationship as long as it's not like parent+child relationship, then it would start to get really weird
Everyone makes such a big deal on the incest in Shakugan No Shaha but I don't really blame them since it's strongly opposed in today's scociety. Especialy when you have watch that episode of House(not anime) where the brother and sister had a sexualy relationship and had medical problems. 
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WesW
 Posts: 144 |
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I second Key's comments regarding Koi Kaze. It's a completely serious, non-exploitative exploration of a hypothetical situation. The thread on it was one of the most interesting and educational that I have ever come across here.
Also, just to note: Second cousins can legally marry in any state in the Union, and some states, such as Mass., I believe, even allow first cousins to marry. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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This is very true, and I want every ANN user using genetic disorders to argue about incestuous relationships to remember what hentai4me said above. However,
This is really not the best example. Hemophilia is X-linked and cannot be calculated the same way as somatic chromosome inheritance. Also to bear in mind that most hemophilia patients (predominantly male) cannot live long enough to get married and have children, not to mention their weaker bodies can be very disadvantageous to earn a long lasting romantic relationship. Cystic fibrosis, the most common somatic recessive disorder of Caucasians, might be a better example.
Em, that sound a little insulting for those who work hard to pursue a career there... 
Received an A+ as the youngest student in Genetics course B.S. Biology M.S. Biomedical Sciences |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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What exactly id your job? I'm not trying to be rude or a dick, I'm honestly interested. With these credentials;
what exactly do you do for a living? |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7988 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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That was my initial thought but my morbid curiousity got the better of me. It's actually a very good series,....highly disturbing, but still I found to be very well written and makes you think. It was definitely worth seeing at least once, though I wouldn't want to own it. It wouldn't have the same type of hard-hitting impact on repeated viewings. I gave it a masterpiece rating. On the subject of incest well I don't personally agree with it, given that I have sisters and find the thought disturbing, the one you love is just that no matter where you get it be it from the oposite sex, or the same sex. If those people are happy then good for them. Just because I'm a guy and heterosexual doesn't mean everyone has to be that way. |
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