Forum - View topicWhy Do We Hate 3DCG Anime?
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3929 Location: New York state. |
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I'm not necessarily against the idea of using CG animation in anime as it can create a more lifelike appearance and movements with visuals when properly utilized. But in many instances it is used, it's typically used as a low-cost and quicker alternative to older animation methods that causes the visuals to look rough and shoddily animated. The infamy of the two 2010s TV seasons of Berserk come to mind with how poor CG animation can look if the time isn't taken to properly render designs of character models, settings, and movements.
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Hiroki not Takuya
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While I love Mr. May's columns and this one was another very good one, I was a little disappointed by it never actually answering the question posed by the title. He focused on the technical production techniques which I love but IMHO the reason for the divide among fans relative to CG art is that people are "hard wired" to do image processing of very high order when it comes to human/humaniod faces and body postures.
The obvious anthropological reason is that interactions with our fellowman every single day of our lives can depend so strongly on what visual clues to the inner emotions are present. Without realizing it, this causes strong cognitive dissonance when viewing a character in anime that we implicitly know should look as expected but the brain processing picks up on many small (sometimes big too) ways in which it doesn't match. The reason that "2D" animation avoids the "uncanny valley" of CG is that the character image isn't close enough to any sort match to begin with that the brain doesn't kick into "high gear" in the image processing. This, the image imperfections keep the brain from getting "picky" in trying to match an expected profile and rebel with emotional repercussions when it can't. Like Meruru said so well at the top here. The noted technique of "disintegration" mentioned is thus a way of intentionally introducing enough model imperfections to trick the brain in the same way. "Hollywood" on the other hand, has mostly gone the other way in avoiding the "uncanny valley" by driving toward perfection in realistic CG imagery with the massive model detail and cost overhead that requires and which anime and most games haven't been able to afford. Plus the time overhead. Marvel movies took years between shows in the beginning for a reason. Pixar and Dreamworks though went the other way in having characters and models that weren't anywhere near human so again the brain isn't expecting anything and so doesn't rebel. However, that produces it's own artistic impact that not everyone likes. It also doesn't help in the brain's image processing that 2D animation imagery has been so un-realistic for so long that most fans of anime have been implicitly trained to accept and expect the level of distortions in the image they have been used to. Japan has also not helped themselves in being so conformist in the artwork of anime and manga for so long because fans' brains now expect anime to have similar distortions used (see "anime eyes" etc). Again, when the CG image doesn't have the characteristic distortions expected, that also creates dissonance and emotional reaction. For better or worse, CG will have to make images more like the hand-drawn images of the past with their distortions or become like "Hollywood" if they can afford that before the wider audience will accept CG as "good" in general. (Love, Tex Avery  )
Last edited by Hiroki not Takuya on Sat Aug 28, 2021 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gamen
Posts: 253 |
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I think I'm generally on the same page as everyone else; it comes down to poor mastery of the medium, both of its limitations and its advantages. Trying to emulate one medium in another is a risk because you invite comparisons between them. Western CG doesn't try to emulate traditionally drawn animation - it developed its own styles that played to CGs strengths and avoided its weaknesses. Clone Wars still looks great 10 years later on not because it did a great job emulation traditional animation but because it did its own thing and did it well.
To me the "uncanny valley" and "it didn't age well" are the same thing, because both are aspects of the same thing. For me the go to example is FF6 vs FF7 vs FF9. As much as I love FF7.... visually it's a disaster compared to both FF6 (and Chrono Trigger, and the even earlier A Link to the Past...) and to FF9. Simplistic polygonal 3D models over pixelated backgrounds do not work. Xenogears did better by having 2D sprites in 3D settings. ....But they got better. FF8 and FF9 show that what they lacked was mastery over the capabilities of the PSX, a style that played to its strengths. And anime is a style that's tailored to hand-drawn animation's strengths while avoiding its weaknesses. It seems only natural that trying to emulate a style specialized to one medium in another is going to require even more effort... And since one of the limitations that anime is working around is low budgets, trying to use 3DCG with even smaller budgets as a cost-saving measure to produce anime-style animation seems.... doomed to failure. Edit: the Blade Runner trailer actually doesn't look too bad. Really only the poor quality of the facial expressions and lip syncing bothers me... Last edited by Gamen on Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4673 |
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Oh yeah, Lupin was an absolute revelation. Taking these iconic decades-old characters and seamlessly translating them to a 3D environment was nothing short of spectacular. And a big part of the reason is that they went full-on cartoon with it, squash-and-stretch all over the place, and the result looked every bit as good as many Western animated movies. That's what it comes down to for me: I have nothing at all against CG animation in principle, but the majority of its use in anime has been straight-up bad. The biggest offenders are the productions that try to drop traditional anime character designs straight into 3D, complete with artificially-limited framerates, and we've all seen the utter mess that results. You just can't do that, not without a lot of time and budget that anime productions notoriously do not have. You either have to adapt things properly to a 3D look, as Lupin did, or be like Orange and have enough experience to know how to work in that world. (Orange had the added benefit of both of its notable CG properties largely not featuring traditional character designs, which made them very fitting for 3D in skilled hands.) If you don't do either of these, you wind up with disasters like Berserk or Ex-Arm. (Seriously though, more Land of the Lustrous when?) On top of that, as others have noted, we've already seen the US animation industry all but abandon traditional animation in large productions, and no one wants to see Japan go the same route. For me personally, I truly mourn the loss of 2D mechanical animation, which was already functionally extinct long before fully-3D projects came onto the scene. The mecha fights in the best Gundam OVAs, the stunning dogfights of the Bebop movie...the talent to reproduce those essentially doesn't exist anymore, which is a massive loss for the medium. |
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#Immie93
Posts: 54 |
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I think there’s also a deep down fear (there is for me anyway) that if we start to like and even prefer 3DCG anime that studios will dissolve 2D in favour of a medium which is faster to produce. Especially when studios like MAPPA want to make way too many anime each year.
We’ve already seen it with Disney so I naturally worry it’ll trend its way over to anime. 3DCG has its place- machinery,vehicles, environments for characters to move in and interact with but there’s so much emotion and personality that translates into a 2D character better. |
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Ultimate N
Posts: 136 |
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While I do think everything said in this article is accurate, I can't speak for everyone but I find it hard to believe I'm the only one who would also say their apprehension towards CG anime is caused by the fact that CG killed the western 2D theatrical film. While not exclusively its fault it still was one of the biggest players so to a lot of animation fans, Anime was the last saving grace for 2D animation, so when a popular manga people might've wanted to see in 2D gets a 3D anime, or a beloved IP that for the longest time was producing only gorgeous 2D does a fully 3D project, it can cause people like to me have a quick jolt of fear. Now obviously I'm not against CG, I still need to see the best CG anime but I know I'd like theme and when a CG anime looks good I'll say it looks good.
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pikabot
Posts: 169 |
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I understand the idea behind frame dropping in 3D CG animation, but the effect absolutely doesn’t work for me. I don’t see it as cinematic or like hand-drawn anime; I just see a 3D model that’s animating at a low frame rate.
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TheCanipaEffect
Posts: 52 |
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The reason for this is actually made clear by this comment thread. There's very little consistency, and people's reasons for disliking 3D anime can contradict other fans. Some see the smoother more Pixar-esque stuff to be the good example, while decrying 2D mimicry like Land of the Lustrous. And others have the exact opposite take. In the article, I focused on the different production philosophies, knowing that different people will agree or disagree with different ideas. One thing I should reiterate though: 3D anime is not cheap. It's one of those assumptions that has been built up for a while based on the idea that if it looks good, it's high budget and vice versa. The rise of 3D anime isn't because it costs less, but instead that companies are running out of 2D studios to ask to make their shows. That's why a lot of anime these days are coming from studios you've never heard of. |
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Kicksville
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It's been covered in these comments by now, and I understand other aspects were the focus of the article, but I do think this particular concern was dismissed a little too quickly. Maybe it's not even realistic - perhaps despite all the growing pains right now, the fact that there's so much 2D anime at all is evidence that you're right and it'll never become secondary. But I will admit that after seeing 2D animation get stamped out in other countries, my gut reaction to 3D is "ew" because I don't want to see that happen to anime. Even good looking shows like LoL or Beastars (which are almost without a doubt among the very best productions in recent years) give me a little nervous twinge deep down that makes me hope shows like that remain in the minority. It's not even fair, but...it's a thing. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2258 |
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To echo what Top Gun said, having never seen the Black Lotus trailer, seeing a few seconds of it just now was enough to see what was wrong with it versus Beastars or Land of the Lustrous. Black Lotus is sitting squarely in the uncanny valley, where not even the Sims 4 is. The Sims 4 was smart enough to move away from trying to emulate photorealism and move back into cartoonish designs to allow them to cheat a little (and they have the added benefit of motion capture and seasoned animators). Black Lotus is like the second coming of Spirits Within, trying to look realistic, but falling just short enough to come off as unsettling and disturbing. We know *exactly* how humans move—we don’t know how humanoid animals or superpowered androgynous gem people move. The more stylized your art design is, the easier it is for animators to get away with less perfect locomotion, generally. (And on the other end of that spectrum is something like Advent Children, with perfectly realistic humans but jarringly unrealistic movements that make them feel like action figures being tossed around.)
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MagicPolly
 Posts: 1606 |
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I feel like a shout-out should go to the 2020 Dai no Daibouken series. While I haven't had the chance to watch much of it, the hybrid style (mostly in 2d and changing to 3d for heavy action scenes and large crowds/monsters) looks really great to me at least in the earlier episodes. That's what gives me hope that the Dragon Ball movie will most likely look good.
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4473 Location: New York |
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Short story - The technology isn’t ready for prime time yet. It’s gotten a lot better, but we are still not at the point that computers can fully replicate animated cels. And until that occurs, the stink eyes will continue.
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Philmister978
Posts: 323 |
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Being someone who is an amateur 3D hobbyist. My reasonable guess as to why CGI in anime is as hated as it is is pretty simple - It's breaking with the status quo. Mo0st people want anime done in one way, and that is "IT NEEDS TO BE ALL HAND-DRAWN!" And in some ways, I can see why. Shows like Berserk 2016 or EX-ARM look like trashfires (behind the scenes issues be damned, the final result is what the audience sees, and is judged accordingly). To say nothing about how CGI and 2D animation being used together in anime has been received by the same fanbase.
Let me be perfectly clear, I get how difficult 3D actually is, like I said, I work in 3D. The problem is that in practice, CG in anime, regardless of it being used as a supplement or as the main visual medium, still has a long long way to go to actually looking more than a choppier attempt at 2D. And the main issue in my eyes is the framerate, I have no idea why they do the choppy frame rate nearly all the time when it generally looks like everyone is either looking like someone keeps sitting on the pause button or having a collective stroke that hurts the eyes. Granted, many of these same issues are also issues I have across the board with CGI (trying to mix 2D and CGI together is like walking a tightrope as it is in western cartoons, to say nothing about all the movie buffs who hate CG graphics in their live-action films), but it stands out more in anime since cartoons and movies have had longer periods of time to try and get the kinks out, even if they're still not 100% successful. Also no one criticizes Polygon Pictures' animation? From what I've seen, they tend to be one of the bigger offenders as far as scorn against 3D anime is concerned. Their shaders alone make everything look too dark and muddy. |
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micah007
Posts: 205 |
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I've learned that the reasons for the hate of 3DCG anime are varied and inconsistent. From, this thread alone reasoning varies from fair and justifiable to prejudice, various misconceptions about 3DCG anime, and somewhat fanatical, it's not hand drawn and that is the only way to produce anime or I just like 2D anime that much and despise anything else. I think the salient problem with 3DCG anime is character model motion, which often can look stiff and "unnatural" and thus provoke a harsh reaction from audiences. The technology and methods involved in the 3DCG anime production process will hopefully improve as fast as possible, but there is a strong "purists" sentiment within the anime community that I fear won't crack no matter how well 3DCG anime look.
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Beatdigga
Posts: 4473 Location: New York |
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There will always be purist responses for everything. How many people lament digital technologies supplementing animators? I think that’s just a rather standard reaction to expecting something to look one way and being given something else that looks…off. |
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