Forum - View topicEvangelion - thoughts and discussions.
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next |
Author | Message | |||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
pendleh
Posts: 14 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
I have seen the pyramid symbolism used quite a few times in other animes/movies and i think it represents as you say, a centralized myriad of forces in the form of U.N giving NERV status and priority in situations. I have to say though that its rather conflicting seeing NERV being undermined easily in the End of Evangelion movies. ___ On a side note, my first thoughts, or should I say words, after finishing the TV series was simply "WTF". It took me a few hours of reading to understand the meaning of NGE. The EoE movies left me pondering as well, but once understanding is attained it's easier to appreciate the story and morals behind the anime |
||||||||||||||||||
poilk92
Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
|
|||||||||||||||||
I'm going to be a hypocrite here and not read all the posts and just throw my personal feelings into the mix completly without context
I feel this show trys so hard to have deeper meaning that it forgets about being good. It seems it is mainly popularized by people who want it to be the prime example to non believers that anime can be smart and interesting, but even on an intelecual level i feel its just mediocre. It hits a lot of phisilosical points that have been hit many many times before and often hit much better, also they try to get thier point across with alot of dialog with intermitent scenes of action or characterization and it ruins the continuity and pace. I can kind of compare it to Ergo proxy, in that they are both somewhat intelligent but where ergo proxy presents most of its philisofical and intellectual points within the plot of the show Evangelion opts to take you out of the context of the story (young depressed boy fighting monsters in a robot) and throws you into a netherworld of dialog. It is very similar to Rosecrans and guildenstern are dead, where the actual story is broken up with these scenes of unrelated dialog (though the difference is R&G are D does it on purpose and is fantastic). Another way i can describe it is comparing it once again to ergo proxy. One thing EP did poorly is have 2 or 3 episodes which were completely out of the pace and plot arc of the show i.e. the bookstore episode, in which they used a ton of dialog to get a point across. Frankly it didn't work well and it is probably the worst episode of the series, but this is how evangelion approaches every intellectual idea instead of presenting them contextually. The show definitely set some presidents but that doesn't necessarily make it good. A lot of those presidents i really feel we could do without i.e. teens in giant fighting robots and crazy dumb surrealism in any show trying to be smart or artsy I can appreciate the anime for present some interesting ideas to people who might not have ever been exposed to them but as someone who is very familiar with philosophy and religion and all sorts of arguments surrounding them all attempts at being intellectual just seemed bland and ineffectual and when i compare it to ergo proxy which i can't help but doing its shortcomings just become that much more obvious |
||||||||||||||||||
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18389 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||||||||||||||
You know, I strongly considered stripping out your entire post just because of this comment.
Then give me specific examples where NGE doesn't do that. Almost nothing that NGE does or talks about is done out of context, especially since much of what you're calling the philosophizing in NGE is actually the main point of the series; looked at one way, NGE is primarily about people learning to become comfortable with their own identities and form meaningful relationships with others. Granted, this is hardly a novel focus, but the way NGE does it, and the extent to which it does it, is what sets NGE apart from all previous series.
While this may not sound fair, it's really hard to take your argument seriously when you're using the entirely wrong word here. (It's "precedents," not "presidents.") Things like this do matter if you're trying to convince people with arguments, especially ones involving the merits of something as intellectual as philosophical discussions.
Except that NGE came along years before Ergo Proxy did. The way NGE presents its philosophical points is nothing like EP, either. NGE heavily uses self-examination, while EP relies much more heavily on general exposition. |
||||||||||||||||||
garfield15
Posts: 1531 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
I also want to add to that.
When people say "NGE did things that were seen/executed better in other series," it seems that they forget that for that time....no there wasn't. There just really wasn't anything to compare it to then. At least not at the influx of anime that came 10+ years later. Oh, I'm not saying Eva is a godly anime. I'm neutral to it myself (though the Rebuild movies are bloody fantastic) but I do note why it is such a standout piece. One thing that does annoy me is how people say that the religious symbols and imagery and stuff were meant to be deep even though it was really just there to look really cool and stand out from the norm. Won't deny that it totally worked though. |
||||||||||||||||||
Nerv1
Posts: 601 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
Yeah, I really hate it when people try to analyze the religious symbols when they mean nothing at all. The biggest offenders of this are the ones who licensed Eva in the US. The extras on the Platinum DVDs are just plain bad. Greenfield and his stupid partner in crime analyze the show like crazy and it sounds incredibly stupid. The sad thing is that many will watch it and take it word for word. Did they even know Gainax said the symbols mean nothing at all? Plus, listening to it makes me want to slit my wrists(or theirs) |
||||||||||||||||||
poilk92
Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
|
|||||||||||||||||
@key
yeah trusting spell-check blindly can do that, and i like how that totally had so much to do with the point i was making also who cares which one was made first? Chronology has nothing to do with my argument i meant that putting philosophy in anime can be more accessible than Plato's republic Though i was only using EP as a comparison and i don't want to start a discusion about it i have to correct you ergo proxy was all about self discovery, robots learning to deal with new difficult emotions and trying to find a purpose in life is a very interesting take on the issue in my opinion. You make a valid point but even if i look at Eva as a philosophical message first and foremost i don't think its strong enough on that alone to make it good and the characterization is so isolated from those messages that it doesn't seem like i can even comment on them as a single unit. @garfield15 i was talking about books not other anime, if i want philosophical statements in the form of dialog and not theatrically presented i will just read |
||||||||||||||||||
Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
So? Just watched the first half of Gundam 0080, it's still a masterpiece, so age has no excuse for a series not aging well. The Lord of the Rings is still one of the best if not the best fantasy series available. In fact if you have to make excuses for a series than it's not as good as you think it is. Mobile Suit Gundam, and Urusei Yatsura are still some of the best of their genre. Neon Genesis Evangelion was the first series to put forth the idea that a well written plot was unecessary. Who needs your world's history to make any sense when you can blow up Antartica, with humanity surviving, have every major city in Japan be flooded, and not only can Japan exist as a nation but it's still one of the most powerful nations on the planet. Then you get information that is severly lacking in necessary information like how did the religious sect that created the Dead Sea Scrolls (possibly the Essenes) know about the apocalypse? While several characters are well developed but others such as Seele get no development at all, why does Seele want to end the world? Is their a prophecy where all the children of Lilith must fight? Is their a mouse version of Seele? Would the Giant Naked Mouse be able to defeat Giant Naked Rei? Then we get to the use of religion in Evangelion. To put it bluntly, Evangelion has simply ruined the Abrahamic religion as a use of symbolism in anime. Since everyone copied Evangelion theirs no particular rhyme or reason why someone bases something off of the Cruxifiction of Jesus, theirs no reason for having people quote the bible, I mean it's no longer symbolism when it doesn't symbolize anything, it's meaningless and only diverts true symbolism. |
||||||||||||||||||
garfield15
Posts: 1531 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
Uh, did you miss the part where I said I was "neutral" to the series. I don't think it's good nor do I think it's bad. I wsan't making excuses. I was just stating why it had it's appeal. (Also, I don't really like Urusei Yatsura either) Last edited by garfield15 on Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||||||||||
Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
I very well know it's appeal, I am just saying that I don't think it's well rounded enough to be really considered a great series, and the revolutionary aspects it did bring are marrred by the fact that a significant number of them are bad (fake symbolism, emphasis on fanservice) |
||||||||||||||||||
poilk92
Posts: 433 Location: Long Beach California |
|
|||||||||||||||||
too true |
||||||||||||||||||
vashna
Posts: 1313 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
First of all, please let me say that I’m not trying to start a fight. I don’t want to tip anyone off. I was just making comments.
Thank you very much. It almost seems that since a pyramid comes to a peak, so does, say, the authority of NERV. Though, like you say, it's quite conflicting since spoiler[NERV is practically slaughtered in the End of Evangelion films.] I've seen that in real life architecture though; the point of a building is supposed to be some kind of pinnacle.
May I ask, kindly, what you do consider to be a great series? I'm not really sure Urusei Yatsura can be considered anywhere comparable to Neon Genesis Evangelion. However, when you said Mobile Suit Gundam...do you mean the 1979 version? I totally agree that it is one, and in many ways, forms the basis of NGE. |
||||||||||||||||||
Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
What I consider great depends on what the Director was trying to accomplish. I don't think that Anno succeded at what he was trying to accomplish due to bizarre decisions like the ending basically being the exact opposite of what was needed to get his theme across. He also buries the theme of breaking down the walls we have by adding distractive stuff like all the allusions to Abrahamic religion that don't mean anything. The result is that for probably at least until 2005 and possbily later no one got Evangelion. Just look at the earlier part of the thread from 2003.
Making your series so incomprehensible that it takes years for people to began to understand your point doesn't make it a good series. |
||||||||||||||||||
HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
|
|||||||||||||||||
2) Read up on Carl Jung's thoughts on symbols, in particular dealing with religion. Shit, Andrei Tarkovsky's Stalker is the embodiment of how to deal with recognizable/universal symbols that are not explicitly linked or limited to one or even any meaning. 3) Even if you don't buy Point (2), then you should recognize that you're complaining about the Judeo-Christian imagery and references is ridiculous. If it's not even meant to be symbolic, then why even complain about it being "bad symbolism"? That doesn't make any sense!
|
||||||||||||||||||
Charred Knight
Posts: 3085 |
|
|||||||||||||||||
1. The reason I harp on the backstory of Evangelion is because Hideki Anno attempted to deconstruct super robot shows, but the backstory he created has just has as many holes as a normal super robot show has but doesn't have the fantastic elements to cover them up. You can't challenge the audience, and then start making excuses. Don't tell me to pay attention, then say ignore that part.
2 . It would certainly help make the series more realistic than having an insanely vague group of individuals just talk about "the prophecy" Which brings me too... 3. How many gundam series have a vague council that doesn't go into their motives other than Gundam 00 which I hate? I am not bitching about the council, I am bitching about their lack of clear motive, and the fact that their not really characters. I mean this is the kind of crap that the Venutre Brothers rip on with the council of thirteen. 4. Was Jung an accomplished film director? Did he go to Japan to direct anime? No? Than what the hell does he have to do with anime other than Anno's obsession with him? The reason I bitch is that it's distracting, what if I made a film in which every once in a while I add in a scene of a puppy? You can try to explain it all you want but it's ruined just as soon as I say that I thought the puppy was cute. It's the exact same thing here, all the references mean nothing other than the fact that Gainax thought they where cool. Now you can claim that Kazuya Tsurumaki, who was the Assistant director is lying, but that wouldn't exactly hold up in a debate. 5. To bad that the ending of the series is End of Evangelion, and not the last two episodes which take place during Third impact. 6. Who the hell is Izubuchi? Your not talking to yourself here, you need to learn how to communicate on the internet. 7. Normal people understand that I am talking about themes, and keep in mind that your previous quote is so vague that I can't imagine anyone actually getting it other than you. |
||||||||||||||||||
HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
|
|||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
||
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group