Forum - View topicWould the death of the US anime industry be so tragic?
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AquarelleSketch
Posts: 8 |
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There are an innumerable number of discussions around the internet of how fan-subs are killing the anime industry, and I'm not going to debate the validity of the claim. What I do wish to discuss, is whether or not fans should be concerned.*
To start, let's simplify the the whole debate into the interests of 3 groups: 1. The Japanese anime industry 2. The US anime industry 3. The US consumers Naturally the interest of the first two groups is to turn a profit, while the last is interested in receiving the best product for the best price. For the consumers, the American anime industry functions as a distributor, the middle man, licensing shows produced by the Japanese anime industry and delivering them stateside. This relationship would be optimal for all parties involved if there did not exist an alternative to the US intermediary: fansubs. Now, I will make two potentially flawed assumptions about the US consumers; they act in their own self-interest rather than altruistically, and they are moderately rational. So the American fans are faced with two alternatives: buying from US distributors or downloading fansubs. Lets make a quick pro/con assessment from the consumers stand-point of both alternatives: US companies Pros Physical product in the form of DVD's and accompanying extras(case, booklet, etc.) English Dubs - which are becoming rarer Ease of access - with streaming helping to keep the edge. Cons Price - be it in the form of DVD cost or time spent viewing advertising on streaming sites, there is a cost on the consumer Speed - Simulcasts certainly compete, but DVD's have very long wait times between being broadcast in Japan and hitting our shores. Fansubs Pros Price - 0 is an unbeatable price point, and most fansubs have little to no advertising Speed - Almost instantaneous gratification only beaten by simulcasts. Cons Ease of access - has been declining as more people adapt to a more digital world. No physical media/collector appeasement No dubs In regards to video/audio/translation quality, both groups are fairly equal, with legal streaming losing on video quality. If hypothetically the status quo was altered such that the US anime industry was to cease existing, consumers would be affected thus: No more physical media/extras, no dubs, delay of 1-7 days from episode airing to watching it depending on fansub group(as opposed to simulcasts), a decrease in ease of access(magnitude of which depends on an individual's tech savy). I'm going to make the assumption that the lose of these elements is, for the average consumer, not justification enough to support US anime distributors. The cost for most would be disproportionate to gain, and as such, the demise of the American anime industry would not have a heavy impact on the average** fan. There are however other factors to consider. The US anime industry is responsible for spreading anime and recruiting new fans into the fold. The degree to which they are responsible for new fans as opposed to other sources is debatable, and the value of this service is subjective. Likewise, the industry supports conventions. Again, your mileage will vary on this point. Finally, It's time to discuss the US anime industries potentially biggest impact on anime: the ability to provide feedback and profit for the most key player in the equation, the Japanese anime industry. Certainly helping to fund the ones responsible for the creation of animation and having the opportunity to influence or even green-light certain projects would be phenomenal; however, as it currently stands, the US anime industry is merely an afterthought for the Japanese creators. Projects get produced irrespective of the overseas market, and while the licensing contracts that American companies form are a nice bonus, they remain just that - a bonus. US influence remains minuscule, and until the situation changes, a fan would be significantly more influential by directly supporting the Japanese industry. There are of course other factors such as the possibility for Japanese interest in the overseas market as their home turf dwindles or increased influence of American companies. Unfortunately they remain vague hypotheticals for the future, and as such gambling on them is risky. I may certainly be mistaken and naturally this does not hold true for all fans; however, for the average American fan, the US companies are an ineffectual proxy who's presence or lack thereof will have little impact on the thing the care most about: anime. *Note: This discussion has to do with the US fans and US distributors, but could be fairly easily ported to any other region with the exception of Japan itself. I also hold no animosity towards the US anime industry, and I simply feel that from a free market sense, they do not represent the best choice for the consumer. **Note: By average I refer to a fan who falls under the assumptions of being less interested in the benefits of DVDs than in the price-point of fansubs. Looking at the current trend of collecting and DVD sales as evidenced and discussed on this site, I believe this assumption to be valid. Last edited by AquarelleSketch on Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7991 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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The Japanese anime industry is struggling even with our help in the form of funds from licensing things. Take it out of the equation and you might not even have a Japanese industry. Besides DVDs kick the @$$ of streaming or fansubs any day of the week, twice on Sundays, because it's physical ownership and more visually impressive sitting on my shelves than on my PC.
Last edited by Kruszer on Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EricDent
 Posts: 997 Location: Georgetown, TX |
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OK you said that you would divide it into 3 groups, yet all you talk about is the "Pros & Cons" for US anime vs. Fansubs.
1. The Japanese anime industry: They need the $ from the US licences to produce more anime, they get a lot more $ from the licences than from the TV channels in Japan. If you have not noticed, the anime companies have been suffering for the past few years, due to people NOT paying for watching their shows. 2. The US anime industry: Is also on a decline, not as many shows are getting licences due to not enough people actually BUYING the shows on DVD. It also affects the dubs (or lack of sometimes) by not having any $ to hire different actors (which is why you hear lots of the same people on the shows) 3. The US consumers: Most people have a job, and most people who collect stuff like to spend $ on the stuff they like. Be it baseball, sewing, or anime. Today's youth have somehow gotten the notion that it is OK to NOT pay for stuff they like. Tell that to the checkout person at your local grocery store, and see what happens. In the "Pros & Cons" you mentioned that translations for Fansubs are "fairly equal" to professional subs from the US Anime companies. You are aware that the US companies do have the Japanese creators of the show looking over the translations, and are all done by someone who is fluent in Japanese & English? This post is going to get lots and lots of flame wars. Just letting you know that I have been a real anime fan since the days of VHS, and have NEVER once watched any Fansubs. Personally I think that fansubs have actually caused several problems. Problem 1: Even though there are more "shows" to watch, not all of them are "good", back when the anime distributors in the US had more power, they filtered the crap, and gave us the best (or at least decent) shows from a crop of stuff. Problem 2: The sheer amount of people out there that think it is OK to take something (and don't spend a dime on it), and yet call themselves "True Fans" just because they have seen the latest episode/chapter of Bleach/Naruto/etc. When the real fans have the patience to wait until the DVD release (or even TV run) of the show. Problem 3: The REAL problem, since the people I mention above don't pay for the show, the creators of the show don't get any $, so they can't make more shows, and eventually will have to shut down (like Geneon did in the USA, and ADV as well). Personally I have been a fan of Godzilla for a lot longer than anime, yet I don't have any problems waiting until Toho gets off their butts and make Godzilla 1985, Godzilla vs. Biollante, and Godzilla vs. Megalon be availible on DVD in the USA. Those are on VHS, but it has been at least 30 years since they were made... |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Although I might hesitantly describe my local market as an afterthought on the part of Japanese companies, it seems somewhat questionable for one to deem the US market as being beyond Japan's concerns, especially in virtue of its size. One presumes there are numerous titles produced with an American audience in mind, even though one cannot say such a thing of series bearing the most obscure and engrained of niches. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18362 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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This is one of the most well-thought-out and well-written posts we've had on this subject, so I will let this thread stand. If it devolves into pure industry bashing or another pro/anti-fansub "discussion," though, then it will get locked.
Your assumptions here are much shakier than elsewhere in the piece. Considerable anecdotal information on this issue - some of it admittedly contradictory - has circulated, some of which suggests that profits from overseas sales are, if not crucial, then at least important to the bottom lines of many Japanese anime producers. Previous analysis by corporate figures who would be "in the know" (and I'm talking about CEOs of major U.S. licensors here) has more or less stated that while the collapse of the American market wouldn't be a fatal blow to the Japanese anime industry, it would definitely have substantial repercussions. Merely eliminating the American anime industry as a "middle man" definitely isn't a solution, either, as Japanese companies who have tried to do this in the past have shown disastrously poor understanding about how the American market dynamics differ from those of the Japanese market.
This depends entirely on what you're defining as the "average American fan." Are you talking about 13 year olds who have never bought a DVD in their life and only really know anime from fansubs? Casual fans who primarily get their anime from sources like Adult Swim and Sci Fi's Ani Monday block (among others)? Hard-core fans who refuse to watch fansubs and know anime entirely through TV airings and DVD releases? Or something else? The range of anime fans in the U.S. these days is much too diverse for them to be typified by a single "average." Of those, only the ones who fall into the "primarily get anime from fansubs" category - and those cannot confidently be called even a majority - would not be greatly impacted by the American anime industry ceasing to exist. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16961 |
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This is very important right here. The Japanese anime market depends on foreign sales MORE then they do their own. Yes they make much more revenue in terms of tv airings then here but overall the anime market is VERY dependent on foreign sales to stay afloat. So would the death of the American anime industry be so tragic? Only if you actually like anime and want to see it. Other then that no, of course not. Sure if the market here crashed anime would still be made but the amount would be only a percentage of what it is now. The market here crashing would have rippling affects there for a long time. Hell one of the financial factors that helped the anime bubble pop years ago was the bankruptcy and collapse of Musicland which was the head parent company of Media Play, Sam Goody, Suncoast, and OnCue. They were a huge investor there (if my memory is right) and their collapse had a huge impact on the market. So yes, the death of the US anime industry would be a huge blow to the anime market as a whole. I where who do you think the vast majority of the "foreign sales" comes from? it isn't Australia or England or elsewhere (no offense meant to them at all or any fans from other countries). It's here. |
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ZakuAce
 Posts: 525 Location: SE Wisconsin |
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I'd like to point out that during the bubble, when American anime companies did have more power and money, they were licensing EVERYTHING, including all the crap. |
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Gentry
Posts: 230 |
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What ever happened to having patience and waiting for DVD's to be released. All this whining about how it takes years for it to make it to the USA, well tought titties.
You can't always get what you want when you want. We're not little princes and princesses that require constant service of our favourite things the moment they come into being. Get a grip and carry on your life until the day it becomes available. The Japanese get the DVD's first because they live in the country it was made and the audience for it is bigger there. Go live in Japan or shut up about it. |
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AquarelleSketch
Posts: 8 |
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I had no desire to start a heated discussion. Admittedly, I chose a rather dicey title, but that was merely to gather enough interest to start a thorough discussion. Just to be clear, I would like to look at this purely form an Economic not Moral point of view. If you wish to flame, leave now.
If this were the case, then from a business sense it would make sense to cater primarily to a foreign audience, which is not the current practice.
I hope this is true, I really do. But until I'm presented with some concrete evidence, I fear this is not the case.
Average was a poor word choice I admit. What I instead meant was a fan who fell under the assumptions of being less interested in the benefits of DVDs than in the price-point of fansubs. I will edit the opening to reflect this.
Unfortunately I'm merely pointing out the problem, not offering a solution. |
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garfield15
 Posts: 1529 |
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I'll just leave here, "I like having DVDs and free legal simulcasting. Take that away and I'm gonna be a really freaking sad person."
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-08-19/research-firm/anime-studios-revenues-down-for-2nd-year Anime studio's revenues are down almost 4% from last year, 171 billion yen to 164. Where does foreign sales fit into the struggling Japanese anime market? |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay, let me approach this from two ways: In terms of my benefit and in terms the Japanese industries befit.
Personally speaking dubs are definitely a big issue for me. If I can get something dubbed, that right there makes it worth supporting the R1 industry. I could go either way on owning DVDs. The odd show comes along that I'd like to own a physical copy of. I don't really want to own 95% of stuff though. The thing is though, with the prevalence of simulcasts these days I really see no downside to the R1 industry. I prefer simulcasts to fansubs since both are sub only but the prior has better translation and saves me the bother of downloading. Therefore, I really only see having an R1 industry as beneficial. It allows me the flexibility to buy the DVD (hopefully with a dub) where I want to but I can still just watch the stream if I don't. There's no downside. Now, in terms of what's best for the Japanese industry it comes down largely to speculation. None of us can really say how significant or insignificant its contributions are. Generally though, having an R1 industry is always going to be at least somewhat worthwhile. No matter how bad it gets, it's at least going to be contributing something where as fansubs only will contribute nothing. Seeing as the Japanese industry seem to need all the help it can get at the moment, I'm not to quick to toss aside the R1 industry. So overall, I see only benefit to the R1 industry. I don't know if it's a significant benefit so I'd agree that it's at least possible that if the R1 industry died it wouldn't be the end of the world. It's definitely better that it continues to exist though and bring what benefit it does though. |
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AquarelleSketch
Posts: 8 |
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I agree completely that the US industry can only help matters. What I'm saying it doesn't help enough currently to provide incentive for a (potentially huge) subset of fans to support it. For their ends, their money would be better allocated elsewhere (such as supporting directly). |
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Mushi-Man
 Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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Why the Death of the US Anime Industry is Tragic: A post by Mushi-man.
Like the OP did in the first part of his/her post I will break this down into 3 simple sections. 1. The Japanese Industry: Lots of people that don't read much into the industry side of things think that in Japan the anime industry is pretty much self sustained, this is wrong. The Japanese anime industry (as others have said) actually greatly depends of their foreign sales and the US is anime's biggest buyers. The U.S. basically has the largest anime industry outside of japan and it invests quite allot into the production companies. With out the U.S. companies buying the licensing rights the Japanese anime industry would most likely not be able to sustain it's own wait. The Japanese industry has only gotten to this size because of it's revenue from exporting their product and with out this flow of money many companies would have to take huge cuts in budget or flat out close. 2. The US Industry: I'll admit it, I'm a young anime fan (only in college) so when you hear talk about the "young fans" it's usually about people around my age. Honestly I'm ashamed of how immature my generation has been with the anime fandom. One of the biggest problems with my generation is that they often get this moronic idea that somehow the American anime industry is made up of huge evil corporations who are sucking the life out of anime for mass consumption. But as anyone who actually pays any attention would see, this is not true. As shocking as it may seem Funimation is no where near as big or profitable as BP. These companies are not looking to make the big bucks because they know full well that they wont get it. In the end they will make back enough to cover the initial investment and then hopefully a modest surplus. It's not like their raking in billions of dollars a year. Young fans seem to think that dvds are way to expensive and that the companies are over charging them, again this is wrong. The dvd prices are that high because it's the only way to make money. Guess what people anime companies are here to help you, but if you want their help you have to pay... its called business that's how it works. 3. The Consumer: There are people in the US who, believe it or not, actually want to buy anime. People who don't mind spending money on something they like (count ourselves lucky that we dont have to pay the same price as the Japanese do), and that actually like to collect anime as a hobby. These people would be devastated if one day they woke up to learn that the could no longer fully participate in their hobby. That for the rest of their lives the only way they can watch anime is through fansubs with varying quality and availability. Many fans actually like and support the industry and would like to see it stick around. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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@ OP Prefacing your post with the validity of blaming fansubs for the possible downfall of the industry makes me question your motives from the getgo.
You can sugar coat your argument all you want, and even it is intellectual and stands on its own I don't see how it can distract us from the fact that fansubbers WERE responsible for the narrowly avoided demise of the US anime industry. I'm just a little annoyed that you imply that the U.S. anime industry is expendable, but everything that could be done to save them is within their control. How about, they made a few avoidable mistakes but the looming onslaught of piracy and illegal downloads was beyond their control? Last edited by P€|\||§_|\/|ast@ on Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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