Forum - View topicNEWS: Nick Simmons' Incarnate Halted Over Alleged Bleach Plagiarism
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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Yes, yes. Those evil doers keep forcing us to sign their petitions, and threatening to rape our wives if we don't do so. Really, really, they could at least give us a choice. Like, like, not having to sign any petition, but unfortunately that's not the case. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Really? An online petition to file charges and have legal action taken?
First off, online petitions are just about the most worthless thing the internet has to offer. I'd venture to say that they actually negatively effect a cause more than they benefit anything. They're a laughing stock now because they're so overused and half the signatures are just people who don't care but went there because someone said "Hey, sign this petition". Second, legal action is between him and the people he plagiarized and the studios involved. If the involved parties file suit then it goes to the legal system. If not, then that's that. Chances are it'll be settled out of court, as most of these things are. The damage is done regardless, since obviously Mr.Simmons is going to have a hard time coming across as an artist again. However, nowhere does an online petition even factor in to this, or even any petition for that matter. Where were the petitions in the Slam Dunk incident, or other notable plagiarism cases? Those were much more high profile in the manga world than Simmons and his throwaway comic. |
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Flame-G102
 Posts: 104 |
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http://www.toplessrobot.com/2010/02/gene_simmons_kid_nick_is_a_comic_creator_a_doucheb.php
I've got JUST the thing to describe this. "I am the bone of my Failure Plagiarism is my body, stupidity is my blood I have traced over a thousand Bleach pages Unknown to copyrights, nor known to lawsuits Have withstood Flaming to get much publicity Yet that publicity will never amount to anything So as I pray, Unlimited Fail Works!" |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Keonyn:
I'm not denying that cases of plagiarism are relatively common. Again though, most of those don't seem quite as bad as this (and a number of them seem absurdly baseless). It's generally a whole lot of ripped off poses only or a lone panel which do indeed happen. The few worse ones did create a pretty big backlash by the sound of it.
Aww, come on. What about lolcats?
That's just it though. When a popular manga gets in trouble, people are generally going to be more forgiving. The author has earned a lot of credibility over time thanks to the vast majority of his work which is his own. He's clearly still a pretty talented artist even f he made a few mistakes. When you get some new guy though with his debut effort he has no credibility. So when right off the bat he's ripping off other guys work it just screams 'no talent hack'. Nick Simmons really seems to have taken the cake in this department too. It just seems like he read Bleach and Hellsing, liked em, and so he mushed em together and regurgitated them under his own name. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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That does make sense, and I could definitely see that. I mean, to be honest, I didn't even know Gene Simmons had a son until now, so I'm not surprised he's unknown unless I missed something big he's done in the past. I suppose I might be more forgiving to an artist I was familiar with and liked than I would be to some nobody that came out of the starting gates riding someone elses coattails like this. It's always a bummer when this sort of thing happens, especially when you consider how many truly talented artists never get a shot, while plagiarizing hacks are given their chances.
Plus, he really seems to be shooting himself in the foot ever since this all came to light. His responses and statements really come off as someone who was busted and doesn't want to admit it. I can see claiming something is homage in cases of similarities, but definitely not when the works in question seem almost line for line ripped or traced from another source. If he wanted to save face he should have just owned up to it and apologized instead of threatening legal action and trying to swing around his dads name. In the end this will only make him more the fool since he has no case and obviously could never follow through on the threats he's issued towards people calling him out.
Definitely agree there. Like I mentioned in my post citing those sources, some of them on that page were really pretty questionable, but it did show a number of the higher profile cases in one link. I didn't want to go overboard on the links, so I took the source that put a lot of them together. Still, even in the case of some of those photos, I don't see it as too different. Some were just too close to not have been directly traced. I could see the use of photos as a source to base a pose, but when the art overlays almost exactly on to the photo, then I think it's clear the image was traced rather than referenced. |
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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Wow, I don't recall prying your eyes open to look at it; you can just, you know, scroll over it and ignore it if you do not like it. And no one took away you free will to sign or not sign, you know. Sign or don't sign, doesn't matter to me. You not signing it doesn't bother any of us who did. There were us who came up with this idea on another site and have wanted it be tasteful. Yes, other people besides you are discussing the issue and we have our rights on opinions and actions just as you. Please don't think that just because it's an online petition that it's just a worthless piece of drawl. It's a collective statement of protest. *shrug* Sit on your hands if you want; without someone actually noticing all this to start and bringing it up, you'd have nothing to argue about with each other and you'd be so dreadfully bored. Edit: On another note, I for one can respect someone else's opinion, but over the years I have found that many people on this site DO NOT. Last edited by Lady Multi on Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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You do realize he was on your side and that the comment was laced with sarcasm right?
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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Hm, then I apologize to the 2nd individual for including the the quote and re-edit my post, but there really are people that say things like that and mean it; I believe I was just irritated that the 1st individual was so blatantly disrespectful to someone else's opinion. I'm irritated at the mater a hand just as much as other people are. As for the topic at hand, I'll just say this, I'm not a fan of Bleach at all; I don't really care if it's a random John Doe's outfit that is taken. ANY artwork or character design that is traced over and/or altered irritates me. ...And the fact that he simply was published because of his name; no one else would be able to publish -THAT BOOK- (it's boring, imo, and is so hashed up it makes little since; yes I've read it). I was intrigued by the topic initially and appalled that the art-theft has occurred and even MORE annoyed when I found out he ripped things from his DeviantArt favorites and called it is own. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I guess his celebrity is a part of the draw [he was on his dad's reality show for years], but at least it's highlighting the issue, and causing lots of ongoing discussion about things like plagirism, artist rights and copyright in anime fandom, something many anime fans like to sweep under the carpet and pretend they don't exist. I find it interesting how mad people are getting, considering a lot of these folks are people who steal Kubo's art on a regular basis, a fact that started Deb Aoki's initial, very strongly worded twitter http://manga.about.com/b/2010/02/26/nick-simmons-bleach-manga-plagarism-scandal-rocks-the-comics-twitterverse.htm People have linked to it, but not commented on that particular aspect, something that has fueled the bulk of the online debate among the professionals [ie- manga reviewers/bloggers/artists/people who actually sign their real name onto their opinions]. A number of manga blogs have commented on all of this and it's popped up manga places Brigid Alverson give a good roundup- http://www.mangablog.net/?p=7230 I also found this piece by Melissa Beasi a really interesting read http://mangabookshelf.com/2010/02/28/confessions-of-a-former-scan-junkie/ People know my opinions on this stuff since i've made my dislike of bootlegs well known just about anywhere I post, but I think it's worth sharing tehse links in this discussion. I mean think about something like 4Chan raiding his deviantart- it's the guilty attacking the guilty. I mean, c'mon people, 4chan is like one giant glass skyscraper, tossing stones at another glass house. Not asking to have the thread devolve into a debate on bootlegging/fansubs/scanlations, as I think it's important to focus on the plagirisim aspect as well, but it's all part of the same kit and kaboodle- can you get angry at Simmons if you're stealing from Kubo yourself? Something to ponder folks. All that said, Nick still deserves everything that comes to him, whether due to things he did purposely himself, or the stupidity of putting his name as the penciller on something his assistants might of drawn/copied all by themselves....... either he's a giant theif, or a giant liar, of a mixture of both, so anyone tracing that CardCaptor Sakura Vol.1 dvd cover for the zillionth time and bringing it to the Artist Alley contest or selling prints of it at their AA table better think ahead. It's not something that wins you universal appeal. Whatever else, it's clear this issue has brought a lot of ugly aspects of fandom to the forefront, from professional plagirism getting a spotlight it hasn't in awhile [anyone remember Flowers of Eden?], to the more dubious side of fanart [myself, I witnessed way too many people think they can get away with selling traced artwork], and the glass house of attacking this while defending scanlations. It's good to see ongoing discussions about these issues Last edited by Paploo on Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:53 am; edited 7 times in total |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Heh. Now I've got to play devil's advocate. Are you referring to those Facebook postings or to something else because I think the facebook ones might be fake. Those posts are the only ones from that account so there isn't really any way to know if it's him or just an impostor trying to make him look bad. I'd be inclined to assume it is an impostor since those comments come off as so utterly ridiculous and inviting of ridicule that it seems like that might be the goal behind them. Of course, a lot of sites have just gone ahead and attributed them to him with no qualifier at all which is horribly unprofessional in my opinion. I assume this plays a role in the reaction as well.
Eh...It's not really much of a conundrum. You're talking about two drastically different things. Just because you can toss it all under the blanket of 'stealing' doesn't really change things. You can certainly argue that they're both bad but they're bad for rather different reasons. There's no inherent reason why someone couldn't come to different conclusions about them. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Both are forms of copyright infringement, both are stealing income and control from an author, and both misrepresent. From all we know, he might of thought "well, this guys stuff is all online for free and no one seems to care. Why not trace it? No one'll notice". As I've mentioned, it's a big part of the debacle on many anime sites, and I don't think ANN's forums should overlook it just because some posters might not feel it's the "same" thing. It's clear it's set off a lot of discussion about copyright infringement in general, with Deb's initial tweet being- http://twitter.com/debaoki/status/9655268316 "Before you get all self-righteous about how you're standing up for Tite Kubo, ask yourself how many Bleach scanlations/fansubs you download. The sales lost to mass consumption of Bleach fansubs/scanlations hurts Tite Kubo far more than any half-assed Nick Simmons comic." "It's fine that you love Tite Kubo's work & want to defend his honor -- but while you're at it, buy his damn books instead of downloading it." Sites like animevice have gotten into the discussion as well http://www.animevice.com/news/required-reading-plagiarism-fanart-and-scanlations/3875/ I think it's too convienent for fans to overlook part of the debate- if you're upset about one, you should probably take a long, cold look at your opinions on the other, and question yourself as to whether you can defend one and support the other. Another point to consider- Given the chapters he stole from haven't been published in english yet, and were likely traced digitally given those look to be digital inks , it's pretty clear he likely used scanlations as part of his plagirims- the dialogue pointed out by fans as having been copied/mirrored is something taken from those scanlations themselved. NOTE- (if you've inked as many pages as I can, you have an eye for that kind of stuff- that's my opinion from my experiences in art, so take it with a grain of salt. The digital inking thing is just salt to sprinkle on the bloody wound that is my main point in the above paragraph) Anyhoo, your opinions are your opinions, just pointing out it's all part of the controversy, and that there is a certain element of hypocrisy throughout the fandom in attacking Simmons. |
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v1cious
 Posts: 6216 Location: Houston, TX |
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and yet it's draw in manga style. wow, what an idiot. at worst he could've said it was an homage, now he's just screwed. you know the sad part is i actually liked Incarnate, but after this nonsense? i could care less if it comes back. i'm starting to believe he didn't write the comic, either. |
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jgreen
 Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Agreed. Seriously, there is NO way those could really be him. If you read the journal entries at his DeviantArt page you can see, at the very least, he can form complete sentences.
Well, when I called his work "derivative," I meant in the general sense, not in the legal sense. Yes, derivative works are protected, but it's also completely legal to make something that's reeeeeally similar to something pre-existing, but just different enough to make it legal. Story time: there's an American comic book creator named Rob Liefeld, who back in 1996 started drawing Captain America for Marvel. He was fired after 6 issues. Then he went to his own company and "created" a character named Agent America, who was virtually identical to Captain America. So Marvel, naturally, sued him. Trying to dodge the lawsuit, he bought the rights to yet another patriotic hero, Fighting American, and created a new amalgam character that was called Fighting American but was really a cross between Fighting American and Agent America. The lawsuit still went forward, and Liefeld ultimately had to make more changes to the character, but ultimately, he was allowed to use his knock-off version of Captain America. What changes did he have to make? He only had to change a few costume colors, and the character could carry his shield but not throw it. That's it. So yeah, Nick Simmons may have "created" new characters that look just like Bleach characters but with minor differences like hair color or different costumes, and that may look to you and me like he "stole" Tite Kubo's characters. But in the eyes of the law, that can sometimes be enough. Not saying that that's right, but that's reality for you. Also explains how every superhero universe has a Superman knock-off in it. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I think the issue is moreso that asides from character and design similaries, he most definitely traced the comics from someonelses work, which is something that a lot of comics fans and artists get mad about . When put alongside the character similarities and plot and design elements, it stands out as a somewhat more major swipe than the usual.
Rob Liefeld has been guilty of lots of swiping, and lots of examples have been posted on the internet, though mostly that's just him stealing poses/vehicles/other elements by tracing over stuff with his litebox [a current popular artist Greg Land is very infamous for this]. Marvel took Rob to court in that case becasue the similarities were way too close, and the issues were resolved since he's done lots of work for them since [him giving into their demands and not making an overly public debacle probably helped] Overall, I'd say Nick's has a bad case against him considering just how much he swiped in terms of dialogue, character designs, plot elements, tracing over artwork in several instances, and the fact that he most likely go it all from an illegally downloaded copy of the original. He's got to make super nice if he ever wants to get work again, and it might be long time before that happens. Roger Cruz is one example of an artist who started off with lots of people upset over his swiping back in the mid 90's, and he's recently come back to the industry with far better skills and areally original look, and hasn't had any moments of swiping that I've noticed. It can be done, but it's a long, hard route that'll probably involve lots of lowkey work for smaller publishers before he's given a chance again- consdiering Nick was already AT a small publisher when he made his mistakes and it was so public, I think it's unlikely he'll get a second chance anytime soon. It'll take a lot longer for it to fade away nowadays. |
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Areaith
 Posts: 19 Location: Rialto, CA |
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Well I guess he's now famous for more than just being the son of Gene Simmons.
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