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EP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II


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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 3531
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:38 pm Reply with quote
2-2Distracted wrote:
And again, it has everything to do with it since Rudeus is, as I've explained for the umpteenth time now, a middle-aged man.

And I've also explained for the umpteenth time I don't see him as a middle-aged man. I count his age from when he was born in the new world. A person who for some reason or other was burdened to carry memories from his old broken self in his previous world. I don't see any reason why those memories should act as chains upon his new life and path he's forging for himself.


Last edited by Blanchimont on Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gamen



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:39 pm Reply with quote
NeverConvex wrote:
With Gamen's latest reply, we now have simultaneous sub-threads arguing both that Rudy is definitely 100% not >40 years old and also that sure maybe he is >40 years old but really it's not bad because he's an emotional teen so he's perfect for dating teens.

That's.... not quite what I said. I listed off the reasons why Sylphie is now an independent young woman and not in a vulnerable position for Rudy to exploit, and Rudy no longer has any advantages over her that come from his longer life experience....

Except that she basically still worships him, and while unintentional that was first and foremost due to his maturity as a child. And that I don't see that as sufficient.

If nothing else, we've had almost an entire cours of Sylphie observing him without him knowing he's being observed by a girl, much less that it was Sylphie. So she can cross off "he was putting on an act for me" off her list...
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ATastySub
Past ANN Contributor


Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 673
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:59 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
And I've also explained for the umpteenth time I don't see him as a middle-aged man. I count his age from when he was born in the new world. A person who for some reason or other was burdened to carry memories from his old broken self in his previous world. I don't see any reason why those memories should act as chains upon his new life and path he's forging for himself.

And I can state that his entire new world is made of pudding. I can say it umpteenth times. It never appears anywhere in the text of the show, but I sure can state it repeatedly. It wouldn't be taken seriously, but at least I could fall back on the text never stating that it isn't completely made of pudding. Something your argument cannot even manage as the text does directly contradict it. So I guess pudding world it is.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4731
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:04 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
Is it so bad for a 4 year old to have a crush on their teacher? And there are stranger objects of worship.

...um, excuse me? A 4-year-old doesn't even have the capability to understand what a "crush" is, other than the vague sentiment of "I like my teacher!" They have no concept of that sort of relationship. That's why we all laugh when little kids say things like, "When I grow up, I'm going to marry X!" It's funny because they haven't figured that stuff out yet. If a child that age started displaying behavior that indicated they had a greater understanding of that kind of relationship, it would be an immediate massive red flag that's probably a sign of abuse going on.

Oh, and side note here: I haven't read or watched the series, so it took me a while during all of these discussions to figure out what sort of nonsense was flying around with references to "worships panties" or whatever. And when I finally did learn the truth I did a double-take. This dude seriously stole panties from a loli-looking girl in his past and still holds onto them as some form of disturbing fetishistic reverential treasure? Please, tell me again why I'd ever want to watch a series about the life of a pathetic piece of garbage like that. Like, what the shit?

Snowcat wrote:
I think you are also missing the point. "Pushing boundaries" doesn't only mean pushing the art form or having a revolutionary "message". If this show make some people uncomfortable, it's pushing the boundaries. By protecting the "feelings" of the audience you just get shows that become more bland.

I'm not really interested in trying to further this argument, but merely making people uncomfortable is not enough to make something "boundary-pushing." In the context of anime, it more often than not equals content created for those who act as though they've never spoken to a real-life woman for more than 5 minutes. If it makes the rest of us uncomfortable, it's because of the staggering lack of basic social cues on display.
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T3rmidor



Joined: 14 Aug 2023
Posts: 66
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:05 pm Reply with quote
Gamen wrote:
Legally? They're both adults - and I don't mean that in terms of consent, I mean in terms of neither being a legal child without certain rights that are reserved for adults. Maturity? She's had to grow up fast since the Displacement incident, and both she and Rudy are similarly bad at relationships so far. Life expectancy? Physically they're the same age.... though since Sylphie has elven blood, yep, there's probably going to be some significant predeceasing here. But that has nothing to do with his previous life. Innocence? No, not with Ariel and Luke, an Asuran princess and noble respectively, as her closest friends. They are pervs. Generationally/culturally? They grew up together in the same village, both have experience with noble society, and are now going to the same school. Positions of trust? Neither have one over the other.

Why do you say they are adults? It seems to me like you just went rigth there on a mental gymnastic course to avoid the main point : One of the menbers is 15, the other is 15+34 years. Don't think about it in termn of apperance, do you really thinks that's a normal and healthy relationship? Rudy isn't a new person bc he carries his memories and experiences from his previous life. Isn't it normal to feel that a +30 year old entering a relationship with a teen is at the very least concerning?
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:40 pm Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:
Something your argument cannot even manage as the text does directly contradict it. So I guess pudding world it is.

Where does it contradict it? I don't remember anything that directly stated that in the novels.
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Gamen



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:59 pm Reply with quote
T3rmidor wrote:
Why do you say they are adults? It seems to me like you just went rigth there on a mental gymnastic course to avoid the main point : One of the menbers is 15, the other is 15+34 years. Don't think about it in termn of apperance, do you really thinks that's a normal and healthy relationship? Rudy isn't a new person bc he carries his memories and experiences from his previous life. Isn't it normal to feel that a +30 year old entering a relationship with a teen is at the very least concerning?

They come of age at 15. Regardless of whether you think that is too early, that confers actual legal rights in most societies. The right to make decisions for yourself, with your parents not longer having a veto, is a big one. Before then, a child is vulnerable to their parents making decisions for them with no recourse. (Your jurisdiction may vary). The word of an adult may often also be trusted more than a child's. Of course, that matters little in this case since Rudy and Sylphie look and officially are about the same age, so Rudy's word wouldn't be given any extra weight just because he secretly has a few extra decades of memories. And between Paul running away at 12, and how the Displacement Incident played out... well, I'm not sure how much weight parental rights have outside one's hometown. But it was an item on the list to check.

Certainly concerning! ...Which is why you look at the facts. Sometimes they aren't; I have "a friend" whose mother married a soon-to-be-divorced father of two over a decade her senior with the agreement he quit his admittedly shitty job and raise their kids and do the housework while she focused on her burgeoning career. In contrast, his biological father was a married man, and his bio-mom the teenage babysitter (Behold the wonders of DNA testing...).

Rudy has his extra memories, but even if he were a successful functioning man in his 30s in his previous life, he would no longer have the equity he built up in it. No money. No connections. No reputation. And in Rudy's case, he was a screwup. No experience being a functional adult, just a scumbag parasite on his parents. So he doesn't even have that. Just life lessons on how to screw up your life... Lessons on what not to do.

And self-awareness from birth. And age-inappropriate knowledge of and interest in sex (...which no one questions probably because it's Asura and his parents went at it like rabbits).
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 24010
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:20 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
And I've also explained for the umpteenth time I don't see him as a middle-aged man.

And for the umpteenth time you've demonstrated that you don't understand the very simple, central idea of a show that is literally called Jobless Reincarnation. Congrats!
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Shay Guy



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 2235
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:32 pm Reply with quote
Speaking as someone who's tended to be on the more critical side of Mushoku Tensei discussions…

I like stories where the mind's age doesn't match the body's. Fanfics about a character getting to turn back the clock on their life, body-altering self-insert fanfics of the type that reincarnation isekai descends from, time loop stories. And if there was any doubt in my mind, this thread has made one thing clear to me: In such stories, arguments over the character's "real age" are pointless.

You are not going to convince me that Ruby Hoshino is in any meaningful sense 28 years old, beyond the best-kind-of-correct fact of how many years she's existed. Those years are incomparable to what we normally think of as a 28-year-old's past. Likewise, to say that the time-looping character in Higurashi is "really" over 100 is misleading at best. My grandmother is in her 90s, and it'd be absurd to act like that character's experiences have been anything like the experience of growing up and growing old that my grandmother has in common with other people her age. But at the same time, characters like Aqua and Ruby are wildly different as toddlers from anyone we think of that term applying to. Our understanding of age in real life was not meant for this kind of fantastical scenario.

To me (and this also fits with what Gamen was getting into), the most interesting way of approaching the age of a character like this is to say, "It's complicated." A vector, not a scalar. Then you can dig into the details of how it's complicated. So for Mushoku Tensei, I don't think the most important question is "Is Rudeus the appropriate age to be in the relationships he's in and/or interested in the people he's interested in?" The question is, given the ways he is like an adult (all his knowledge and memories and interests, including sexuality, his cognitive abilities), and the ways he is like a child/teen (physical capabilities, social position)… is it scummy of him to do the things he does?

My answer is "Yeah, it's pretty scummy!" And yes, I'm including the things that are mentioned in the webnovel that the anime avoids. A couple people have said they consider the WN a rough draft that can be ignored, but I refuse to accept that. Mushoku Tensei's Shousetsuka ni Narou release was where it became a hit, it was deeply shaped by its culture, and nothing about it can be fully understood without the specific context of its origin on a reformed fanfic site.

The fantasy of being a child again has its attractive points. I've got enough regrets to recognize that. Mushoku Tensei gives a very strong sense that it sees "sexual interaction with children" as a key part of that fantasy, and I can't get on board with that.

Top Gun wrote:
...um, excuse me? A 4-year-old doesn't even have the capability to understand what a "crush" is, other than the vague sentiment of "I like my teacher!" They have no concept of that sort of relationship. That's why we all laugh when little kids say things like, "When I grow up, I'm going to marry X!" It's funny because they haven't figured that stuff out yet. If a child that age started displaying behavior that indicated they had a greater understanding of that kind of relationship, it would be an immediate massive red flag that's probably a sign of abuse going on.

Hey, this is anime. How many teenage characters have we seen who fell for their love interest in kindergarten? Razz
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5909
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Guess people who have memories of past lives, people who are reincarnated, and vampires should all be imprisoned for the crimes of having an edge over "normal" people.
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Gamen



Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 253
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:44 pm Reply with quote
Shay Guy wrote:
Hey, this is anime. How many teenage characters have we seen who fell for their love interest in kindergarten? Razz

New headcanon: Rika Sasaki of Carcaptor Sakura is the reincarnation of Terada-sensei's high school girlfriend. I mean, it's CLAMP, so it could be true!
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Snowcat



Joined: 01 Feb 2021
Posts: 190
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:09 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
Guess people who have memories of past lives, people who are reincarnated, and vampires should all be imprisoned for the crimes of having an edge over "normal" people.

I tried to explain before that debate doesn't have much sense with the example of YA novel containing romance with vampire. You can interpret that as necrophilia because they are undead corpse but everybody who read this kind of book consider them as handsome immortal beings.

Whatever age you consider for Rudeus, the story doesn't change. If you can watch it from 2 different viewpoints, it doubles the fun. Wink
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Velorien



Joined: 28 Oct 2021
Posts: 107
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:11 pm Reply with quote
So I decided to go through volume 1 of the LN for some choice quotes. More noteworthy parts are bolded.

First, on age.

Quote:
But now I knew all of my missteps. With all the knowledge and experience from my past life, I could finally do it. I could finally live life right.

Quote:
I had to keep in mind that, while I might have been a jobless high-school dropout, I also had the mental age of a person in his midthirties. I could do this!

Quote:
A man more than a decade my junior had gotten married, had a kid, and was now struggling with how to raise him. Given my thirty-four-year-history of indolent joblessness, you wouldn’t think I’d be able to outdo him at much of anything.


On Roxy:
Quote:
With all video games I’d played, the idea of a magician loli wasn’t terribly unusual to me.

Underage. Scornful eyes. Socially awkward. That right there was the trifecta.
She was perfect.
I wanted her to be my bride.

Quote:
I wasn’t sure what to do after patting her on the shoulder. I hadn’t really struck up a conversation with anyone in close to twenty years, so I couldn’t find the words to comfort her. I honestly didn’t know what the right thing to say in this sort of situation was.
No. I just needed to calm down and think. What would the protagonist of an adult dating sim say to comfort someone at a time like this?

Quote:
One of her hands was inside her robes, moving about rather suggestively. I quietly crept back to my own room. Roxy was in the grip of adolescence, after all, and I had the decency to pretend that I hadn’t seen anything.
Or, well, something like that. I definitely liked what I had seen, anyway.

Quote:
Of course, it didn’t hurt that my teacher was a junior-high-aged girl at the budding edge of sexual maturity. That was kind of an awesome situation. In my old life, I could have gotten off to that mental image in three pumps.

Quote:
She looked like she could be the first character whose route I’d try to complete in an adult dating sim.

Quote:
I didn’t miss my opening. “I like you, Miss!” I couldn’t help it; hitting on cute girls is what I do.


On Sylphie:
Quote:
So why couldn’t I just stay here with Sylphie until we were old enough to get by on our own?
Sounded pretty good to me. We’d grow up together…and she’d grow up into my perfect woman.
Hikaru Genji style, baby!

Gweheheh.


[Note: Hikaru Genji fell in love with a 10-year-old, kidnapped her when her guardian died, raised her, and then married her.]

…Crap! No. No. Bad thoughts. Bad thoughts.
What happened to the whole ‘oblivious’ thing, buddy? You’re getting way too far ahead of yourself.
Hm. Well, that said… there’s nothing in the rulebook that says an oblivious protagonist can’t brainwash their childhood friend, right?
Gah! What am I thinking?! But… ugggh.
The girl was only six years old. She was clearly very fond of me, but she wasn’t capable of feeling romantic love yet.
So, uh… yeah. Let’s put all that on hold.
For how long, though? Now that was the question. Did I need to wait until she turned ten? Fifteen? Even older…?
What if she ended up hating me for wasting her time?
Her affection meter was at max for now, but there was no guarantee it would stay that way forever. Could I live with myself if it dropped to zero?
No. Hell no!!! I’m a man who knows my limits, damn it!
Seriously, she’s so soft and warm and fluffy! And she smells so freakin’ good! She’s baring her soul to me right now, and I’m supposed to just sit here slack-jawed?! That’s so messed up! We both know how we feel, so we should just take this to the next level!
Why force myself to waste precious time? Why not just admit I made the wrong call?!
That does it. I’ve decided! I’ll make her into my perfect girl!

I’m…I’m oblivious no more, Sylphieeee!

“Hey, Rudy…letter for you.”

At this point, Paul barged into the room, pulling me out of my own little world—and not a moment too soon. Startled, I pulled away from Sylphie.
My dear father probably deserved some gratitude for that one. I’d been about two minutes away from turning into an extremely pathetic kind of villain.
Still, a man’s endurance had its limits. I’d managed to weather this storm, but there was no telling what might happen next time.


Bonus from Zenith:
Quote:
Whenever I breastfed Norn, he… tended to stare. It wasn’t just a curious, innocent gaze, either. There was an element of interest you wouldn’t expect from a seven-year-old.
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2-2Distracted



Joined: 03 Feb 2021
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:27 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
And I've also explained for the umpteenth time I don't see him as a middle-aged man. I count his age from when he was born in the new world. A person who for some reason or other was burdened to carry memories from his old broken self in his previous world. I don't see any reason why those memories should act as chains upon his new life and path he's forging for himself.

You haven't actually explained a damn thing dude Laughing the only explanations I got was why your headcanon & interpretation is terrible and doesn't work. I'm just going to repeat what I said before - You say his memories can't be counted in this particular instance... but they can in other instances, tho right?

You're doing the exact same thing you got called out for last time; you're literally picking & choosing when his past is relevant for your headcanon to work, even when it's evident each time you do this that it doesn't work. You're pretending like Rudeus is his own person who just so happens to have the memories of his past life and that alone, even when you know damn well the story doesn't support that nonsense line of thinking. I'm here wishing the author went for a more Avatar approach to reincarnation, where it works Almost exactly as you've described, and all you're doing is pretending like it actually works that way for reasons I've already explained elsewhere.

Blanchimont wrote:
Where does it contradict it? I don't remember anything that directly stated that in the novels.

Oh look, you're doing that again where the text you constantly flat out ignore is suddenly relevant again in so far as it supports your headcanons...

TarsTarkas wrote:
Guess people who have memories of past lives, people who are reincarnated, and vampires should all be imprisoned for the crimes of having an edge over "normal" people.

I mean, if that "edge" includes being able to exploit minors... Shocked or anyone who doesn't know about their headstarts for that matter.


Last edited by 2-2Distracted on Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2458
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:34 pm Reply with quote
I think you misattributed a Blanchimont quote to ATastySub there, 2-2, FWIW.
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