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NEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases

Goodpenguin wrote:

*snip*....I realize finding ways to blame everything under the sun on 'evil corporations' is the popular thing to do in these fansubs threads (for some), but if people are going to bring in the specter of business/market operations, they should at least try to have a rudimentary understanding of the commercial process.

Piracy, while not a competing business interest, can be seen as a market force. Piracy is often created when consumers feel that their needs are not being met either in price, availability, etc. It's sort of like how people living in Alaska wouldn't need nor want to pay the same for a ten pound bag of ice as someone living in death valley. The weather in that case is a market force that drives consumer behavior and that has to be addressed.[/url]

Piracy, while not a competing business interest, can be seen as a market force. Piracy is often created when consumers feel that their needs are not being met either in price, availability, etc. It's sort of like how people living in Alaska wouldn't need nor want to pay the same for a ten pound bag of ice as someone living in death valley. The weather in that case is a market force that drives consumer behavior and that has to be addressed.

While your piracy point seems a bit more 'Robin Hood' then real life, your correct that piracy can be a factor in effecting the commercial market, relative to the way it suppresses/effects consumer demand. Consumer demand and the specific concept of a 'business model' are two different things however. 'Business Model' refers to the actual 'nuts and bolts' of a companies/industries manufacturing/sales/logistic process. An increasing number of people regularly invoke the term as if fansubs had pioneered a superior commercial method (again, like fast and free is a magical combination no ones put their finger on yet), but it's flat-out erroneous to apply a commercial comparison to a completely non-commercial source.

It's fair game to talk about fansubs impact on consumer demand, but it's 'apples and oranges' making 'Business Model' accusations.

I'm also going to share something I think everyone should read, it's an arstechnica article I saw earlier today. I think anyone who considers IP the same as physical property really should give it a read.

Customers wanting to rip their DVD collections to their computers, download music they can play on any device, or incorporate copyrighted works into original creative works find that there is no straightforward, legal way to do these things.

It's a little hard to take seriously the conclusions of someone who is writing about copyright, but doesn't seem to have heard of either the 1984 Betamax decision, fair use, or the US Postal Service. Recording broadcasts and recopying those or purchased copies to different formats for your own use is legal, and as for incorporation of other people's works into your own works, that merely requires writing a letter in advance and asking permission (and perhaps paying them for the privilege) .

The comparison between owning a unique physical thing (property) to owning something that can be reproduced indefinitely (information) is very apples-to-oranges, as is the author' use of garage bands as an example of free offering of art, compared to for-pay art. Most garage bands I know would jump at the chance to earn money playing, but they aren't good enough, so they take the joy of playing as their pay. Take that away too, and they'd quickly stop playing at all. The entire article is written to attack copyright law, not to look at the question rationally.

*snip*...Looking down the road, I see the industry either dying slowly rom lack of revenue, or taking two main courses to extend its life - either the Japanese will begin doing their own subtitled streamed versions, uploaded right after broadcast and available for a nominal fee (reducing the dub industry to sure-fire mainstream hits, but taking the wind out of the sails of the fansubbers), or some clever new way of protecting copyrights will emerge, such as a virus that can erase uploaded video files that match copyrighted shows, or a more vigorous way of prosecuting piracy. Both paths would probably have to be traveled together, because I'm sure that some people wouldn't even want to pay $1.99 to watch an episode the day after it came out with studio-approved translation - that would still be too slow and too expensive for them. Probably not 'pure' enough for them, either.

By the way, Robin Hood may have robbed from the rich, and given to the poor, which seems all very noble... but he was still a thief. Ends don't justify means.

Sagecat wrote:

The only real harm the death of the industry would cause is less money for the original creators and producers. However, much like the time before anime went global, the animators and manga-ka will still make anime and manga, only at a slower rate. The TV stations (NHK, TBS, BS1/2) will still order anime and the jumps of the world will still bring out their phone book sized anthologies each week/month. The point of this is that people who only watch fansubs do not care about the industry - and really why should they? They will still get what they want if ADV/whoever closes or not. It does not matter to them and that's all there really is to it.

You know, this "screw everyone else, I got mine, the only thing that ever matters is whether or not I get what I want" anti-social garbage is getting really, really tiresome and makes me wonder about some of you. A lot of this rhetoric is so selfish and ignorant it borders on sociopathic.

larinon wrote:

The fact is, a lot of people just want a free lunch, and they're bending over backwards to try to justify their decision. Why not just support the industry? Why do we need all this song and dance of excuses? Some fans insist on being able to enjoy numerous different titles within a week of their original airing in Japan, yet scoff at the idea of actually paying for these shows at some point, or claim that they are not worth paying for at all. Does that not seem hypocritical to anyone else?

Quoted for truth.

What fansubbers are doing is illegal, not to mention downright immoral and disrespectful. But hey, as long as you get to see your shows, who gives a damn about people who actually possess the basic human decency to support the industy you leeches proclaim to love by actually - *gasp* - paying for their anime?

I don't give a damn if it's illegal or not. I don't see it as illegal. I see it as the same as watching a show on TV before I purchase the DVD's. DVD's provide me with the bonuses of the series.

Most of the plans assume that advertisers will flock to support sites showing streamed anime, and that somehow this will generate enough half-pennys streaming back to Japan to make the equations work. Exactly who will be the advertisers that wish to buy ads that will mostly be shown to a demographic that constantly complains that spending $50 a year is too much for their hobby?

Looking down the road, I see the industry either dying slowly rom lack of revenue, or taking two main courses to extend its life - either the Japanese will begin doing their own subtitled streamed versions, uploaded right after broadcast and available for a nominal fee (reducing the dub industry to sure-fire mainstream hits, but taking the wind out of the sails of the fansubbers), or some clever new way of protecting copyrights will emerge, such as a virus that can erase uploaded video files that match copyrighted shows, or a more vigorous way of prosecuting piracy. Both paths would probably have to be traveled together, because I'm sure that some people wouldn't even want to pay $1.99 to watch an episode the day after it came out with studio-approved translation - that would still be too slow and too expensive for them. Probably not 'pure' enough for them, either.

Edit: Forgot to mention that 99% of the fansubbers i know stop fansubbing shows once they are licenced, and if it was already finished then they will remove it, and promote you to go buy the DVD's when they are released.

I have to adamantly disagree with you guys here. You suggest that there is something wrong with being unwilling to pay for anime. However, that is just not consistent with the reality of the anime market nowadays. Sure, back in the old days anime was a rare import product for a super niche audience. People we're pretty much just happy to get it and it was perfectly reasonable to expect people to pay for it. However, now anime has become a relatively mainstream product. As such much of the fanbase is not willing to pay for anime. It's not all that different from American TV shows. How many people out there love Family Guy? A lot. How many would buy it if it didn't air on TV and was only released on DVD? Far less. That doesn't make those people hypocrites. It is just part of the reality of something gaining mainstream popularity. Much less of your fanbase is going to be willing to pay for that product.

What they don't realize is fansubbers don't want the industry to end, not at all, and it's not because then they can't steal stuff, because I mean really they don't get their jollies out of stealing product, or that they want to "have the monopoly for anime series." They want fans to support the industry as much as they can, hence why with EVERY SINGLE fan sub I see these words are attached :"Stop distribution when licensed." and then they take down their fansubs. Is it because they are afraid of prosecution? Not really they could just go underground onto an IRC and require you sign up for a group to download their releases, or just release their stuff on pirate bay only. It's because they are like the rest of us, they love anime, but they also realize that some really phenomenal anime will never see the light of day in the US, they understand that the US butchers anime.