Forum - View topicNEWS: ADV Head Says UK Issues May Be Due to Illegal Releases
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
Author | Message | |||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
|
|||||||
Goodpenguin stated it quite well. This faux capitalism many are referencing is erroneous and getting rather obnoxious. Obviously, piracy is a very real issue that I believe we've only seen the tip of the iceberg on. But that does not make it valid consumer enterprise. You're telling me NONE of the R1 industry companies have discovered, which many of the esteemed business wizards here have, that if they could sell their product at much reduced prices they would exponentially increase their sales/profits/fanbases? I find that absolutely mind-boggling. This isn't some conspiracy of the R1 industry holding our precious anime hostage for only the wealthy, while fansubs act as "the people's" Robin Hood. Are there improvements that can be made to the system? Absolutely. But lets use an inkling of common sense and logic. |
||||||||
Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
|
|||||||
While your piracy point seems a bit more 'Robin Hood' then real life, your correct that piracy can be a factor in effecting the commercial market, relative to the way it suppresses/effects consumer demand. Consumer demand and the specific concept of a 'business model' are two different things however. 'Business Model' refers to the actual 'nuts and bolts' of a companies/industries manufacturing/sales/logistic process. An increasing number of people regularly invoke the term as if fansubs had pioneered a superior commercial method (again, like fast and free is a magical combination no ones put their finger on yet), but it's flat-out erroneous to apply a commercial comparison to a completely non-commercial source. It's fair game to talk about fansubs impact on consumer demand, but it's 'apples and oranges' making 'Business Model' accusations. |
||||||||
geowrian
Posts: 15 |
|
|||||||
I had a huge response to this article, but I scrapped it. The whole debate on the "correctness" of the translation, editing, dubbing quality, etc. is a real issue but that's not the major issue here.
If you look at the polls, and the general consensus among fansub sites is, the people downloading anime, without purchasing it when it becomes licensed in their region, are very minimal. If, for instance, all Naruto fansubs went away and never came back, how much would sales go up? According to ADV, it would be massive. Based on what I've seen and heard, it wouldn't be very large. Piracy isn't the major issue here...people that are going to purchase it are going to purchase it. People that aren't going to purchase it are not going to purchase it. Those that aren't going to purchase it anyway may also get interested in a related series or purchase accessories or the manga or something. So anyway, piracy isn't the real reason their stuff isn't selling. It's a scapegoat with *some* validity as it does negatively affect their sales. By and large, in my opinion, prices are far too high to sell well enough. Hard-core fans will find a way to drop $80 on a box set...most people don't have that kind of money to drop on a TV show, especially if it's on TV. You do get some extras, but most non-hardcore viewers are OK with that...well, OK enough that they won't drop $80 for it. No solution works for everybody, but I think the companies like ADV and such are targeting their products for either hardcore anime viewers or new viewers and nothing really in-between. |
||||||||
Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||
Well the reason it's brought up like a business model is because in this case it does represent a competing interest. The key thing to note though is that piracy doesn't effect consumer demand so much as consumer demand CREATES piracy. If you look at the markets for bootlegs, knockoffs, etc. they were primarily in places like China, taiwan and other nations with vastly different cultures and socio-economic statuses. The culture had a demand for the software or goods of western nations but not at western prices, whether out of need or simply cultural preference. When this demand was not met, piracy ensued. In this sense it is very similar to a competing business because in some cases actual businesses do spring up around piracy. This is because the goods desired are not delivered in sufficient quantity, quality or price relative to the desires of the consumers. When for whatever reason no legal or viable alternative to what is desired is produced, this creates a strong force of piracy to fill the gap. |
||||||||
Sam-I-Am
Posts: 121 Location: Midwest US |
|
|||||||
It's a little hard to take seriously the conclusions of someone who is writing about copyright, but doesn't seem to have heard of either the 1984 Betamax decision, fair use, or the US Postal Service. Recording broadcasts and recopying those or purchased copies to different formats for your own use is legal, and as for incorporation of other people's works into your own works, that merely requires writing a letter in advance and asking permission (and perhaps paying them for the privilege) . The comparison between owning a unique physical thing (property) to owning something that can be reproduced indefinitely (information) is very apples-to-oranges, as is the author' use of garage bands as an example of free offering of art, compared to for-pay art. Most garage bands I know would jump at the chance to earn money playing, but they aren't good enough, so they take the joy of playing as their pay. Take that away too, and they'd quickly stop playing at all. The entire article is written to attack copyright law, not to look at the question rationally. As for Ledford's comments, he seems to me to be saying that because people have been downloading anime instead of buying dvds, the profit margin was low enough that they have decided to use a local middleman instead of a direct branch office to sell in the UK. I don't read that as either 'slapping his loyal fans' or as 'ADV is abandoning the UK'. There's been a lot of blather the last ten pages about fansubbing as a business model. What's lacking in most of the proposals is a direct connection between fans watching anime and animators being able to buy groceries. 'Fast and free' sounds good to the viewing public, but while 'fast' is potentially doable, 'free' is fraught with peril, especially for the people who have to eat. No money flowing back to Japan, no anime, plain and simple. Remember all the stories you've read over the last several years about how many hours most animators work, and how little they're paid? And you want to reduce that income? Most of the plans assume that advertisers will flock to support sites showing streamed anime, and that somehow this will generate enough half-pennys streaming back to Japan to make the equations work. Exactly who will be the advertisers that wish to buy ads that will mostly be shown to a demographic that constantly complains that spending $50 a year is too much for their hobby? Another 'model' put forth was 'a fansub group will license a show, sub it for free, and put it out on the web legally for free'. A group of volunteers will license the show... hmm... seems to me that there was a comment made in another thread about Geneon inflating licensing costs by being willing to pay $70,000 per episode for some shows. If you drop that down to $50,000 as a 'more reasonable' cost (50 being chosen for easy math), for 26 epsiodes, that's $1.3 million for a series. A bunch of people who think $120 for a series' six dvds is too much is going to round up 1.3 mill, do a bunch of work for no pay, and then give the show away for free..... uh-huh, that'll happen soon. Looking down the road, I see the industry either dying slowly rom lack of revenue, or taking two main courses to extend its life - either the Japanese will begin doing their own subtitled streamed versions, uploaded right after broadcast and available for a nominal fee (reducing the dub industry to sure-fire mainstream hits, but taking the wind out of the sails of the fansubbers), or some clever new way of protecting copyrights will emerge, such as a virus that can erase uploaded video files that match copyrighted shows, or a more vigorous way of prosecuting piracy. Both paths would probably have to be traveled together, because I'm sure that some people wouldn't even want to pay $1.99 to watch an episode the day after it came out with studio-approved translation - that would still be too slow and too expensive for them. Probably not 'pure' enough for them, either. By the way, Robin Hood may have robbed from the rich, and given to the poor, which seems all very noble... but he was still a thief. Ends don't justify means. |
||||||||
tygerchickchibi
Posts: 1474 |
|
|||||||
>.>; It kills me how everyone says the "prices are too high" and there "aren't enough episodes" on the DVD. $20-$30 is average for a DVD, epsecially for new releases...But even so, there are huuuge sales on many of them.
Doesn't anyone know what a discount is? It IS possible. Boohoo, cry me a river. Seriously. Most people will have the downloads ripped to DVD-Rs and add them to their little collection.[/end rant] I'm sorry, but everything just comes out to unrealistic to me. |
||||||||
Fallout2man
Posts: 274 Location: San Diego, CA |
|
|||||||
That's actually not true with most digital media these days. The DMCA makes breaking copyright protection devices, even for legal uses, illegal. It also makes making software or devices that can break such protection illegal. This means that you cannot legally space, time or format shift any protected media outside of what the original authorized software or originally encoded files allow. This is one of the ornerous problems the DMCA introduced.
It's not just a matter of being good enough. If it was just about having skill at a trade then unemployment wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is now in America. It's very much so also about who you know and possibly who they know. Still, this doesn't address the core of his argument, which is an evaluation of the evolution of American property law and how it somewhat reflects the situation with copyright. Land rights never became respected until they were normalized to something in line with the prevailing public sentiment.
If there was an actual solution in enforcement it'd have been used by now. Remember the fight against piracy is being led by some of the richest and most powerful corporate conglomerates in the world. They are pouring money into it left and right. If they can't create a solution despite hiring hundreds of high priced lawyers and hard working coders then they probably won't. This goes right back to the article's talk on property rights. The government kept passing more and more laws to deal with squatters but it just didn't work.
So I take it you also believe all taxation is robbery as well then? That'd at least make your views consistent. |
||||||||
Dramatis Personae
Posts: 88 |
|
|||||||
"Facepalm" I would say more, but I dislike the idea of getting banned. Besides, Zac summed up my feelings on this subject. Last edited by Dramatis Personae on Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||
I have to adamantly disagree with you guys here. You suggest that there is something wrong with being unwilling to pay for anime. However, that is just not consistent with the reality of the anime market nowadays. Sure, back in the old days anime was a rare import product for a super niche audience. People we're pretty much just happy to get it and it was perfectly reasonable to expect people to pay for it. However, now anime has become a relatively mainstream product. As such much of the fanbase is not willing to pay for anime. It's not all that different from American TV shows. How many people out there love Family Guy? A lot. How many would buy it if it didn't air on TV and was only released on DVD? Far less. That doesn't make those people hypocrites. It is just part of the reality of something gaining mainstream popularity. Much less of your fanbase is going to be willing to pay for that product. |
||||||||
poehitman
Posts: 93 |
|
|||||||
Sorry, but for me the entire POINT of buying a DVD is to get the dub. If companies want me to purchase a DVD, they need to offer something more than what the fansubs offer. I'm not going to shell out money for a DVD with no dub when I can download fansubs for free.
I don't give a damn if it's illegal or not. I don't see it as illegal. I see it as the same as watching a show on TV before I purchase the DVD's. DVD's provide me with the bonuses of the series. Sub only DVD's offer nothing of value to me. |
||||||||
ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
|
|||||||
Um...sorry if I'm just nitpicking over your wording but that makes zero sense. If you think it is an unjust/stupid law, or that that makes it morally okay then fair enough. But regardless of whatever factors surround the issue and what your opinions on it are the bottom line is that that downloading is illegal. I guess you're entitled to your opinion but if your opinion is that downloading isn't illegal then factually, you're wrong. |
||||||||
Randompeon
Posts: 18 Location: Scotland |
|
|||||||
In my honest opinion most of the posts in this thread have an arrogant and elitist attitude in them, do i watch fansubs? yes, do i buy DVDs? yes.
I have to agree with poehitman one one point, and that is i prefer to see something first before i buy, i don't just do it with anime either, i will see a film before i buy it just like i get a demo for a game before i buy that, so i can guage if it's even worth buying it in the first place and not wasting money. I also believe 99% of dubs are the spawn of satan for how badly done they are, again it's not just anime dubs, but any dub at all. i can count on one hand how many english dubs i have heard that didn't make my ears bleed, but i'm going off topic now, the point is everyone i know who watch anime will see a fansub first then if they like it they will go buy it after it's released. Also saying that illegal releases are making the market go down is strange since the film and video games markets seem to be fine, and they have had piracy alot longer than anime has, the other problem companies have is they licence too much crap at times, why not see what shows are popular among fansubs and licence those then release them, i'm sure sales would increase. Edit: Forgot to mention that 99% of the fansubbers i know stop fansubbing shows once they are licenced, and if it was already finished then they will remove it, and promote you to go buy the DVD's when they are released. I admit you do still have some groups who will still do it regardless, but those are few and far between. |
||||||||
Joshua-Sensei
Posts: 20 |
|
|||||||
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Fifty dollars a year? Are you kidding me? LMAO. If all my anime cost me was fifty dollars a year, then I would say all fansubbers and all people who download are complete morons. ROFL. Try 2,000 to 4,000 a year good sir (and I am cheap). I spend at least 50-100 dollars every two weeks on anime or anime related products. Fifty dollars a year? Damn I wish you ran the anime industry then not one could complain about prices. As to your question, I suppose the same advertisers that flock to "newborn" forums that spring up over night, or the same advertisers that help fund YTMND, or porn advertisers... yeah probably the porn advertisers... the same people that advertise for torrent sites ect.
A virus? Obviously you don't understand that if they did that, they would be breaking the law just as much as illegal downloaders, and such a virus would be stupid and pointless. People would find ways around it, as they find ways around everything really, but a virus? A virus? COME ON! As per your selling episodes for 1.99 statement and saying people still probably wouldn't want to buy them, I speak for a good majority of people (I think) when I say that YES YES WE WANT THAT! I would have no problem with that at all. I mean yes there would be those that would not even want to pay the 1.99 for an episode, but you have that with the movie industry, the music industry ect. I mean look how well itunes did when they offered song to download for 1.99 we all see how that failed and that option is no longer around wait (*gasp) it still is!
This is something that fansub haters seem to look around or just downright ignore. What they don't realize is fansubbers don't want the industry to end, not at all, and it's not because then they can't steal stuff, because I mean really they don't get their jollies out of stealing product, or that they want to "have the monopoly for anime series." They want fans to support the industry as much as they can, hence why with EVERY SINGLE fan sub I see these words are attached :"Stop distribution when licensed." and then they take down their fansubs. Is it because they are afraid of prosecution? Not really they could just go underground onto an IRC and require you sign up for a group to download their releases, or just release their stuff on pirate bay only. It's because they are like the rest of us, they love anime, but they also realize that some really phenomenal anime will never see the light of day in the US, they understand that the US butchers anime. Okay I want to pose this question to all who are "Anti fansub" One piece, if I downloaded One Piece, (not now that Funi has it but when 4kids did) could you really argue that I am stealing from the industry? The abomination that 4kids released could not even be called the same anime at all. It was complete and utter crap, but it's due to fansubs ect. that Funi really picked it up in the first place, they saw that fans wanted the "uncut" version, and not this hacked apart pieces of crap, and who can blame them? "anti-fansub" people want to say that fansubs hurt the industry, and that "Fans" that download shows hurt, but that is not the case. Fans will download, and then buy, (such as myself) Freeloaders will download and never buy. Fansubbers want you to buy the product when it is available. Companies sometime look at a fansubs popularity to decide if they want to pick it up, and One Piece is a prime example of that. I FIRMLY believe if it were not for One piece fansubs, that Funi would not have picked it up, and One Piece would forever remain an abomination to the anime world. Do "fans" download things that are licensed and then not buy? Yes. Is that wrong? Yes. (to an extent if it's available on tv I say go ahead i.e. NAruto. I pay for cable and watch Naruto on CN when I can, and download the Shippudden episodes, because I know I am still going to watch them on CN, same goes for Bleach. Now do I burn off copies of the episodes? Nope. I watch and then delete with licensed series, that are being shown on tv. ) Do fans download and then go buy? YES, is anything wrong with that? I don't see how you could say there is. |
||||||||
larinon
Posts: 992 Location: Midland, TX |
|
|||||||
Um, wow. Have I got a news flash for you: It costs money to make anime. While it may make people feel all warm and squishy to say that designers, creators, and artists make anime for the love of their art and the medium, there are still the people who produce the anime -- meaning the ones who spend money to have it made -- who are actually in the business of trying to make a profit on their investment. It's still a business, even if you don't want to think of it as such. And all the artistic folk would love to be paid for their work as well. Family Guy costs money to make too, by the way. Even though you think you might be getting it for "free", you're still paying for it through your cable service and through having advertisements played at you at regular intervals throughout the broadcast. And they do count on some DVD sales as well, and other merchandising. You're getting the same deal when you watch anime on Adult Swim. And it's the same with anime in Japan. I'm sorry you don't feel anime is worth paying for. I hope you don't feel silly for spending all that time watching something that is worthless to you. |
||||||||
Tofusensei
Posts: 365 |
|
|||||||
Thank you for defending fansubbers, I appreciate it. The answer to the problem is speed of release and convenience (I'm almost certain that quality does not even factor in, hence the speedsub phenomenon). If you can beat the fansubbers to the punch with a digital subtitled version and monetize your fan base, you win. And people who want to buy DVDs will still buy DVDs even if the video is up on a streaming site. They've been doing it so far and all it takes is a trip to a bit torrent site, irc, youtube, or any other number of streaming sites to get their fix yet there are plenty of people who still purchase DVDs. At least this way you're making back some of that lost money. There are any number of ways to do this. The problem is this would be admitting defeat for the Japanese (they'd be making a compromise on sales and admitting their 'work of art' is not worth as much as they'd like to think it is). We need a global recession to hit Japan even harder before they begin to look at other ways to create some revenue or some slick sales pitches from American companies -Tofu |
||||||||
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
||
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group