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"Get In The Robot, Shinji"


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Stampeed Valkyrie



Joined: 10 Aug 2014
Posts: 849
Location: PA
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:50 pm Reply with quote
Takkun4343 wrote:
That, plus spoiler[the EVA Unit-01 technically isn't even a robot].


None of the Eva's are.. spoiler[ They're all based off of Adam ]

octopodpie wrote:
Shinji's dad could stop the monsters from attacking at any point without involving his son.

spoiler[They're attacking in an attempt to retrieve Adam from within NERV to begin with, but Gendo needs Adam to fulfill is entirely selfish plan to reunite with his dead wife. So he keeps Adam in NERV underneath a city that's home to thousands of civilians and sends his kid into dangerous situations to defeat said monsters.]


And partially correct.. spoiler[ Adam does not fall into Nerv's possesion at Tokyo 3 until it's delivered to Gendo via Kaji (Asuka Strikes Ep 8) Why Tokyo 3 is attacked before that has to do with Lilith who is at the core of Central Dogma. And is the White Egg. ]
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Ahiru



Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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Location: ...just a duck in Oregon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:37 pm Reply with quote
Really well said, Zac; it tends to be point of view that gets little consideration. I've always been on Shinji's side (and I like the tv ending, too)
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:22 pm Reply with quote
Thanks for the kind words, Zac (and Lynzee and Jacob!). Something I've taken away from this discussion is how depression can impact people in very different ways, so a character who resonates on a very intimate level with one viewer can fail to make that connection in another. That's also what makes it such a difficult condition to overcome: you need to find the path out of it that works for you personally.

Also I apologize profusely for this, but a few friends reminded me of the existence of this gem.
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 930
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:32 pm Reply with quote
But the thing about empathy is... look, I don't think it's a huge secret that Hideaki Anno displays obvious signs of a fairly significant autism-spectrum condition.

Which is to say, you know, the creator of Eva probably has neurological tissues that make it much much harder for him to know or guess what other people thinking... and still he managed to make Eva.

If people say Get In the robot, it's not that they can't understand what other people are thinking and feeling, it's that they refuse to.

Indifference, not ignorance. Self-centredness. Selfishness. Arseholery.
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luffypirate



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 3187
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:22 pm Reply with quote
Yeah I don’t like it either. I’ve never said it myself.
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:39 pm Reply with quote
Another show that I haven't (yet?) watched is Welcome to the NHK. Based on the little that I've read on NHK and what I have read about Eva, I am curious: Has anyone ever written up an essay/monograph that contrasts/compares the protagonists of these two series?
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writerpatrick



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:06 pm Reply with quote
The phrase is simply a way of saying "Shut up and do the job."

The lack of empathy by the father could be because Shinji isn't his real son but a clone of his son or even of the father who was created because he could use the Ava.
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 633
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Zalis116 wrote:
Some of ADV's interpretations were off-base, but was using "First Child" instead of "First Children" really so inaccurate?


If you want to get technical it is, since the Japanese version uses the plural term as well. ADV clearly changed it because it's grammatically incorrect in English to use a plural for a singular, but these days as Japanese companies become more and more involved in official distribution to other markets, linguistics seem to not be much of a concern anymore. We commonly get grammatically questionable titles like "And You Thought There is Never a Girl Online", "Encouragement of Climb" and "Is the order a rabbit??"
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hanshotfirst1138



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:31 pm Reply with quote
Why has the music been changed, not to mention the whole dub? Legal issues, I assume?
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Ashen Phoenix



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:31 pm Reply with quote
A fascinating article and one that helped me to look at EVA a bit differently. My only exposure to it is the Rebuild films and while I enjoyed 1 and 2, 3 went so far off the comprehensive rails so to speak that I lost all interest in it.

I may have to set aside time to watch the original TV series with these character points in mind.
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prime_pm



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:49 pm Reply with quote
Just got finished watching the End of Evangelion on Netflix. Wow. The new dub was like watching the movie all new again. The original dub for that even I can't defend there were so many problems, including the studio adding in sound effects in an attempt to make it more gory? What? The new dub retains the feeling of the original movie and while the new voices felt a little off throughout the TV series, in the movie they just felt so...right! Like this was supposed to be the movie we should've gotten years ago. I again feel numb at the end but this time it is a deeper feeling than before as though my core has been rendered moot. I haven't felt this way since college...or the end of Devilman Crybaby technically, but splitting hairs.

Anyway, overall the Netflix dub has been an interesting experiment. Parts were liked and preferred from the original, parts were disliked and rather preferred in the original. But in the end it still captures that seem feeling of the anime I became drawn to when I was only 17. So I'm glad to have had the chance to witness this again as though through fresh lens; it is always good to view things through an alternate perspective, and the new Eva dub really provided. YMMV.

Still miffed about the outro gone.
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nargun



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:21 am Reply with quote
writerpatrick wrote:
The phrase is simply a way of saying "Shut up and do the job."


Yes.

However.

Zac just spent thousands of words explaining that "Shut up and do the job" was the wrong thing to say or to want to say. It exists as a refutation of your point (before _you_ made "your" point, because you're hardly the first with it) . What you're doing is ignoring everything he wrote and insisting that people take Zac's space and use it to talk about what you want rather than respond to Zac's thoughts: if you knew what you were doing it'd be pretty rude.

Quote:

The lack of empathy by the father could be because Shinji isn't his real son but a clone of his son or even of the father who was created because he could use the Ava.


No it can't be that. Texts don't work that way: if the producers had consciously wanted that to be a possibility, or if it was something that they'd subconsciously included as a possibility &c, there'd be evidence of that in the text, either included consciously or emergent from the creator's preconceptions. There isn't that sort of evidence, so it's not useful to talk about these possibilities. They aren't really possibilities.
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Re:SOUL





PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:17 am Reply with quote
Beyond the broader meaning, there really were times where he should have poured the Eva as there were people relying on him, but he didn't want to do it for his own reasons. At times he could have been more selfless, yet a huge fault in his personality is being largely focused on his own needs. At least that's what I recall,I haven't watched the series in a while.

I did think that people were treating him unfairly in the recent films.
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Redbeard 101
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:33 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
I can't really bring myself to stand up for him anymore. I also suffered from clinical depression and anxiety in my past, but I don't recognize a kindred spirit in Shinji. At my lowest points, I would have LONGED for someone to tell me to "get in the [expletive] robot," because it would have given me a goal, a purpose, anything to hang my hat on, an escape for the drifting feeling of worthlessness and inadequacy. My overwhelming desire was to be able to do something that no one else could, to be a hero to someone, and the fact that I couldn't was a large part of what kept me in despair. Even though I'm in a much better place now, those lingering desires still bounce around in my head from time to time. So to a see a character given that chance to step into that role, even if it's the result of heinous manipulations, but continually and repeatedly shy away from it at every opportunity, is something I fundamentally can't identify with.


That's the thing with deep rooted depression, not everyone responds the same nor longs for the same thing to cope with it. I can certainly understand your viewpoint and I know many who share it. Friends and family who have that same sort of longing to simply be given a goal, a job to do, a purpose as you aptly put it. It's not even just that purpose or goal/job that brings meaning, it's simply being acknowledged at all. It's that overwhelming desire to simply be noticed and valued, even if it's for selfish reasons by the other person. They're still giving YOU that attention, that goal, and that acknowledgement as opposed to someone else. So I can completely understand why someone with that sort of mentality and craving would not relate to Shinji as he is someone who does routinely shy away from those opportunities.

Unfortunately there are those of us who are the reverse of that. Those who fit Zac's description.

Zac wrote:

IMO Shinji's characterization comes from depression so crushing that you don't want to be given a purpose because your self-hatred has consumed you and you don't believe you're capable of anything at all, worthy of nothing. You want to fade away. If an authority figure tells you to do something, you do it, even if it's abusive, even if it's destroying you, even if you're convinced you can't, because it's the only thing you have to hang on to - but you still don't want to do it because you don't trust yourself with anything. He has no sense of self through most of the series - he is trapped inside that obliterating depression, and can be used like a tool by anyone who gives him "purpose" by command or shows him any remote affection. Evangelion 2.22 touches on this very directly.

There is a level of narcissism in that kind of self-hatred - a type of self-obsession. He is very selfish about his feelings a lot of the time, and a lot of depressed people are like this.


For those of us suffering from that sort of deep depression and self hatred who feel along these lines they can relate more to Shinji and his archetype. You do what is told of you because your self hatred and depression is so deep you have no strength to fight against it. They key here is also you're being TOLD to do something, not simply ASKED. You do just want to fade away and not exist. You want to just hide in a deep dark hole because that's what you deserve. You're so goddamn worthless and pathetic that you deserve to just not exist. You also deserve to be used by people even if you don't want to be and don't want to do what they tell you to. You do what you're told because you have no drive to NOT do it. You have no strength inside to ignore that order. You have nothing else. So you do whatever it is because that's all you have tethering you to life, and/or because you feel you deserve to be used in that manner whatever it is.

Zac is correct that often people going through those sorts of feelings can be very selfish in regards to those feelings. They can become obsessed with that darkness and those feelings of self hatred and uselessness to the point of that is all they ever see. You wake up and immediately wish you simply hadn't and never would again. You get into a major auto accident, or say pilot a giant robot into battle, and afterwards your first thought is simply "damn, I'm still here". The big difference here is basically wanting that goal and purpose so you jump at the chance to have value, versus wanting obscurity and simply doing whatever it is because you were told to and you hate yourself too much to disregard it. The people who feel the former are more easy to reach and help than those who feel the latter..


For me this is why Gendo is one of the best examples of a pure evil villain with no redeeming factors. Now a days people like to feel sympathy for villains. They're misunderstood. Take all the Thanos discussion for example from the Avenger's movies. People making arguments for how he's misunderstood, not truly evil, means well, etc. Whether or not you agree with such debates is moot. The fact is there's room for people to make those arguments with a character like Thanos, or say Light from Deathnote. Gendo however, there is nothing there to make such an argument for. His manipulations of Shinji and everyone else show a complete zero for his moral compass. He is 100% a piece of shit and you want him to get what he deserves in the end. I like such villains in my entertainment because I like rooting against them and there is such a sense of satisfaction when the hero triumphs over them. Assuming they do of course.
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Agent355



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:47 pm Reply with quote
Disclaimer: I only saw a few episodes of the original TV EVA, it was pretty much OOP by the time I seriously got into anime, unfortunately. I did see the first two Rebuild movies, though, although I'm not sure I want to revisit the series proper, as I'll explain. (Also, I have an undying love for Cruel Angel's Thesis and Utada's Beautiful World!)

I don't think it's fair to accuse viewers of lacking empathy when Evangelion never struck me as a particularly empathetic show. The first episode starts out in an awful situation, and as far as Shinji *and* all the adults like Misato know, "getting in the robot" is the only way to avoid more casualties. Rei is already injured, and they're under attack.

But that's not my main problem with the show---while I respect your take, Zac, I want to point out that what puts me off Evangelion is that it's a very male and particularly adolescent take on depression. We see the female characters through Shinji's view of them, as sexualized, scary ciphers that he can't relate to on a deep personal level, maybe especially the "original" tsundere, Asuka. I don't feel that the show has as much empathy as it should for this other deeply wounded child soldier--she instead exists to be the confusing object of Shinji's affections, the girl who terrifyingly acts hot and cold towards him, the persona of many young men's fears about a girl who *dresses* as if she wants sexual attention (the "proof" of which is mostly the adolescent male's desire towards her and projection more than her actual interest), but then *doesn't put out..* She is the persona of irritating male sexual frustration.

Learning about the incident in The End of Evangelion in which spoiler[Shinji tries to strangle Asuka, and later masturbates over her comatose body] pretty much confirmed my worst fears about the show's take on women, and perhaps that's unfair (did Anno even write those scenes?). The show was written by someone working through not just mental health issues but lingering adolescent angst, and was aimed primarily at teenage boys who are often dealing with that confusing mix of a lack of ability to relate to girls as true friends with their sexual desire for them. I don't blame the show for those flaws (well, I think they're flaws). I respect that there are reams of literary analysis about every part of EVA including all the female characters, Shinji's relationship with them, and how they fit into literary archetypes. But it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to read Shinji as an incel, especially in light of those scenes in EoE.

TL:DR I don't think it's fair to accuse viewers of lacking empathy when the show itself lacks empathy, for Asuka, Rei and Misato as well as Shinji himself. It's an unrelentingly dark show.
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