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So, FranXX is over.... I think the nicest way to put it is that it was a pre-teen/teenager's love letter to older mecha anime "sempai". Not a bad thing at all, I had no issue with pretty much any of the plot reveals (I had been expecting the VIRM for a while when they appeared), the homages were a bit nice, a number of promising plot beginnings, etc.

On the other hand, how all the pieces came together was just.... shoddy? There were 2-3 genres/flavors of mecha show in there, but they never smoothly transitioned through them. The first half had decent, somewhat contained story arcs, but that fell apart to me in the latter half. They had some nice, unusual ideas, but they seemed to pull back rather than fully committing to them. For example, the dual-pilot system. I cannot help that they missed something by not exploring non-standard pairings more. Or even just fully owning up to it and putting the cockpit in the crotch. There is also the matter of time - a number of cases where the anime dwelled on scenes were nice because they tended to subtle character building. Ikuno not being able to confess, Ichigo stepping in Hiro's footsteps, stuff like that. But that ate into the time needed for the more grand world-level plot like Papa vs. the Klaxosaurs and the stuff behind it that the series still wanted to include, and the series never seemed to increase its pace to try and make up for the lost time. And I honestly think Dr. Franxx's explanation episode happened way too late.

I guess to me the best mecha shows need to embrace the absurdity of the premise (giant mecha fights solve things!), and something kept FranXX from going the lengths it needed to to make all the bits work.

On the other hand, I am the strange guy who thinks that there should have been crotchpits like in "Brain Powerd" and "Zone of the Enders", and that with Hiro and his swag gone, Ichigo's swag (from being essentially Hiro's sister/genderflipped clone) should have come into play with her unattentionally picking up a harem she had no clue what to do with. I also think that the "female klaxosaurs are the monster-robots we see, male klaxosaurs are magma energy" should have been played with a bit more, but I have no clue about the time.

TL;DR - FranXX might have been good/great if they either had another 6-13 episodes to flesh out and finish the post-midpoint story at the pacing of the first half, or had accelerated the early part of the show so the last half would have less cramming to do. And in both cases had another person or two editing the storyboard and tightening things up.

Melchiorgk wrote:

Not a bad thing at all, I had no issue with pretty much any of the plot reveals (I had been expecting the VIRM for a while when they appeared)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any legitimate citations and arguments regarding how VIRM was always foreshadowed by the series. I see some people continuously throw out that refutation (not you Melchiogk; just using your comment as a way of highlighting the general idea that there are those who saw the twist coming as a function of the show's portending) so i want to genuinely know if anyone can supply concrete verification that this has always been the show's agenda from the very beginning; that this was all clearly outlined through careful structuring of cues and major plot details and somehow most people misinterpreted the information being fed to us. Granted, i don't think all those stipulations are always necessary to make a twist work, but for those claiming that the show had intelligently built up to it all along and that it was obvious, I want strong supporting evidence that this was the case. I don't even want to turn this into a big discussion; I just want someone to provide me the layout of how the VIRM plot twist was always lurking within the narrative. If i find the explanation satisfactory, I will just comment expressing my amazement at being convinced otherwise. If the explanation does nothing to support the VIRM plot twist being alluded to by the narrative the whole time, ill simply respond "I'm not convinced", basically agreeing to disagree and just leaving it at that.

I found episode 14 as the highlight of the series, up until that point it was decent enough. 02 made a strong case for best girl, though it was hard to stick the landing in everything else that was going on.

Tirol Choco wrote:

Heishi wrote:

Sooooooo, basically after reading all these comments I'm getting the impression that DARLING in the FRANXXX is the next "Sword Art Online" in terms of polarization of opinion.

Nah, SAO was mostly negative and certainly didn't make any "best of the year" lists when it came out, all that happened was that the fanbase retreated into their holes and humbled themselves knowing that the series will never be anything more than a guilty pleasure at this point and that we should accept its existence since it wasn't going to go anywhere anytime soon with how much of a success it was despite its many many many many many writing flaws and occasionally we'll have some believes who claims that the writing gets better after the first season only to get smack down into reality when it lapses again and SAO becomes the laughingstock of the community but there's also people who don't care about anything but being entertained to which SAO offered in the spades intentionally or unintentionally. Franxx's fanbase seems to believe critics and everyone who dislikes has a vendetta against the show because it doesn't align with their political beliefs or "we just don't get it" hence why its been something of a spectacle seeing all the backpedaling going about within the last month and a half when the series essentially fell apart the problem is that Franxx isn't bad enough to be considered a "guilty pleasure" and its not good enough to be deemed worth watching so its stuck in the middle ground of subpar shows that manages to skate by being unnoticed yet for some odd reason Franxx got all this unwarranted attention all because Trigger was involved with it.

As far as this site goes, I would disagree that coverage of SAO has been mostly negative. Theron's reviews while it was airing were relatively positive (B-, B, B) and Rebecca's were similarly positive, though less so for the Fairy Dance arc, which is fair (B, B-, C+)

Nick's episode reviews of SAO II were more mixed, but he gave a number of episodes A- and even A. Theron's reviews of the second season were positive (B, B, B-, A-). Theron also was rather positive about Ordinal Scale (B+). Perhaps among the bubbles surrounding anime Youtubers or elitists, there was such a mostly negative consensus, though I can think of at least one prominent anime Youtuber who had a (modestly) positive opinion on SAO. You don't have a monopoly on reality on SAO or this show, you're just another person with an opinion like anyone else. I concede that too many fans of this show do not realize that, but I do not care for myself or any other fans who have not attacked the reviewers being conflated with those who do.

stilldemented wrote:

...I think I may have been the person who originally shared the Youtube video that got people watching Nearly on Red. I shared it because NeverConvex was talking about symbolism and I was like. "Speaking of that, there's this youtuber who irons out a lot of that stuff." ...And that was pretty much the end of it as far as I was concerned. I only ever watched that one video, but apparently other people got really out of hand about using his videos as a defense? Idk. Saw maybe 2 people do that and 3-5 people bemoan it?

Well, I for one am very glad you put me onto Th8a/Nearly On Red and I don't think I've seen anybody here use his analysis for shutting down anything. I know I mentioned about twice that he had a good handle on the show's themes until the Ep20 derail and once recently where he identified what retrospectively has become the main themes (one of which he originally identified). What I appreciated most was at a point where I (a reasonably smart person) was having trouble trying to make sense of the plot and themes, he presented a thorough analysis that not only pulled things together but also allowed a certain amount of prediction about what would come up in future episodes which actually occurred. I don't understand people not appreciating the value of that, maybe they just dislike his delivery (??). Anyway, predictive ability means his analysis was right and people can scream as much as they want, it will still be right. I just wish for less screaming...

I liked Nearly on Red's stuff, but I don't think it's that hard to see why many people didn't find themselves "appreciating the value" of his analyses: interpreting FranXX as a love-letter to fertility myths took one fictional universe and connected it to another fictional universe without deepening the emotional or intellectual value of the show's themes. I thought it was a neat tie-in, and it undeniably identified at least some structure the show was going for during most of its length, but "definite thematic structure" isn't the same thing as "emotionally or intellectually resonant thematic structure".

There's a sense in which this is a bit like all the homages in FranXX to Gunbuster, Eva, and TTGL. Sure, that the creators wanted to base their show heavily on the structure of prior works explains quite a lot of what happens in FranXX, but they don't effectively give it deeper meaning. If anything, trying to pay tribute to the ideas of so many mutually inconsistent universes all at once fractured the show's soul pretty badly, and left the homages floating about mostly as just superficially neat callbacks, not as neat callbacks that gave the show a powerful connection to its audience through a broadly evocative message.

we love lain wrote:

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have any legitimate citations and arguments regarding how VIRM was always foreshadowed by the series.

For me at least, it was less that it had been foreshadowed and more that the reveal just didn't catch me off guard. Papa had always been staged as the primary antagonist over the klaxosaur threat, so I was always wondering how the show would worm him out of his ivory tower and into the spotlight.

The world itself was always a little alien and unnatural, and Papa as the person in charge could be considered the source of that disconnect. In his eyes, humanity had more or less evolved past the necessity for even the most basic of human values. Companionship. Copulation. Emotion. It was reminiscent enough of other science fiction staples that I wasn't particularly inclined to call Papa or APE anything other than human-like.

I wouldn't say I called it though by any stretch of the imagination. My impression was that these elements were alien and unnatural because of the dystopia...not because they were literally alien and unnatural. Laughing

But for that reason, I was a lot less dumbfounded and probably way more willing to just roll with it. That pretty much describes my experience throughout the show's run though. A lot of the issues that made others slam their hand on the table tended to make me deadpan.

Tirol Choco wrote:

the show because it doesn't align with their political beliefs

You can't tell me there isn't some of that involved, like, I still remember when they were announcing the couple that will ride the franxx robots and everybody was up in arms saying "How dare this show don't have a gay couple in 2018?!" and shit like that, like, yeah the show was trash but sometimes it got waaaaaaay to much shit trown at it because of that, that's what I feel

zrnzle500 wrote:

Tirol Choco wrote:

Heishi wrote:

Sooooooo, basically after reading all these comments I'm getting the impression that DARLING in the FRANXXX is the next "Sword Art Online" in terms of polarization of opinion.

Nah, SAO was mostly negative and certainly didn't make any "best of the year" lists when it came out, all that happened was that the fanbase retreated into their holes and humbled themselves knowing that the series will never be anything more than a guilty pleasure at this point and that we should accept its existence since it wasn't going to go anywhere anytime soon with how much of a success it was despite its many many many many many writing flaws and occasionally we'll have some believes who claims that the writing gets better after the first season only to get smack down into reality when it lapses again and SAO becomes the laughingstock of the community but there's also people who don't care about anything but being entertained to which SAO offered in the spades intentionally or unintentionally. Franxx's fanbase seems to believe critics and everyone who dislikes has a vendetta against the show because it doesn't align with their political beliefs or "we just don't get it" hence why its been something of a spectacle seeing all the backpedaling going about within the last month and a half when the series essentially fell apart the problem is that Franxx isn't bad enough to be considered a "guilty pleasure" and its not good enough to be deemed worth watching so its stuck in the middle ground of subpar shows that manages to skate by being unnoticed yet for some odd reason Franxx got all this unwarranted attention all because Trigger was involved with it.

As far as this site goes, I would disagree that coverage of SAO has been mostly negative.

How about actually reading the comments and forums instead of parading reviews? I mean being an advocator of Franxx should have taught you that reviewer opinion does not shape user ones. As someone who lurked the forums back then the series got slammed to hell and back. Also Nick gave two pivotal episodes D's with the most praise he garnered for the second season is...at least I wasn't bored throughout it. The same with Theron (who even gave garbage like Aldnoah/Zero a positive review) and Rebecca go on about its writing flaws with the clear consensus that its not good but it fun to watch. Even now with GGO airing people here have dubbed it "the good SAO" because Kirito and his posse aren't involved in it.

Quote:

You don't have a monopoly on reality on SAO or this show, you're just another person with an opinion like anyone else. I concede that too many fans of this show do not realize that, but I do not care for myself or any other fans who have not attacked the reviewers being conflated with those who do.

No I can clearly see there's a consensus on both Franxx and SAO all you do is cherrypick the positive and ignore the overwhelming negative. Nobody takes SAO as a franchise seriously anymore and nobody took Franxx seriously period.

Last edited by Jonny Mendes on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tirol Choco wrote:

No I can clearly see there's a consensus on both Franxx and SAO all you do is cherrypick the positive and ignore the overwhelming negative. Nobody takes SAO as a franchise seriously anymore and nobody took Franxx seriously period.

LoL.SAO is still one of the most successful and popular franchises after all this years, Just take a view on Japaneses sites, European sites and many US sites.
Yes, is not that well written and have some problems, mostly in the second arc, but what you expect from a Light Novel. Most LN are more fan fiction than actual literature works.But still outside of a small but very vocal minority, most people enjoy it and want more of it.

Not that matters say that to someone that will probably never like it. But well if everybody had the same opinion, things would be very boring.

FackuIkari wrote:

Tirol Choco wrote:

the show because it doesn't align with their political beliefs

You can't tell me there isn't some of that involved, like, I still remember when they were announcing the couple that will ride the franxx robots and everybody was up in arms saying "How dare this show don't have a gay couple in 2018?!" and shit like that, like, yeah the show was trash but sometimes it got waaaaaaay to much shit trown at it because of that, that's what I feel

I don't think the writers had anything to say but they kept throwing mixed signals leading to some unfortunate implications that got arguments heated. The very fact that Ikuno is confirmed gay already throws a wrench in the whole thing and then there's the whole message of having babies that just strengthen the whole propaganda argument (and they realized this too because all of a sudden Ikuno is a scientist who saves the world despite having no hint of that prior just so she doesn't have a short end of the stick much like Futoshi finding some random nobody to be his wife) and finally Alpha's comments about gender in episode 17. its all just a mess that would have been saved if it was just a simple coming together of misfits story that had nothing to do with gender politics so people wouldn't have to reach but the show gave them ammo for it.

Jonny Mendes wrote:

Tirol Choco wrote:

No I can clearly see there's a consensus on both Franxx and SAO all you do is cherrypick the positive and ignore the overwhelming negative. Nobody takes SAO as a franchise seriously anymore and nobody took Franxx seriously period.

LoL.SAO is still one of the most successful and popular franchises after all this years, Just take a view on Japaneses sites, European sites and many US sites.

Where did I ever say that SAO wasn't popular? I just said that people by in large don't take it seriously as a piece of art to be judge by the likes of critically acclaim shows like Made in Abyss. The people who like it get what they want from it while everyone else moves on to find something better, its why you never see it ranked in best of lists or have serious critical discussion of it because its just the same old schlock and doesn't try to hide it.

Quote:

Yes, is not that well written and have some problems, mostly in the second arc.But still outside of a small but very vocal minority, most people enjoy it and want more of it.

There's people who's made a livelihood by bashing SAO and its widely considered a punching bad in the anime community. Its status is more or less the equivalent of the Transformers movies i.e. something that exists to turn a profit and nothing more.

]quote]Not that matters say that to someone that will probably never like it. But well if everybody had the same opinion, things would be very boring.[/quote]
Thank God tastes exists.

Tirol Choco wrote:

Where did I ever say that SAO wasn't popular? I just said that people by in large don't take it seriously as a piece of art to be judge by the likes of critically acclaim shows like Made in Abyss. The people who like it get what they want from it while everyone else moves on to find something better, its why you never see it ranked in best of lists or have serious critical discussion of it because its just the same old schlock and doesn't try to hide it.

That it wasn't the of intend of the LN,as in most power/fantasy and battle/school harems LN's.
The problems start when people try to look for something that is not there.
SAO is a self-insert OP MC power fantasy. Trying to find deeper meaning is this kind of LN is just lost effort. If fans look at SAO for what it is, they will be satisfied. SAO will never be a piece of art or something like Made in Abyss or Ookami to Koushinryou

Quote:

There's people who's made a livelihood by bashing SAO and its widely considered a punching bad in the anime community. Its status is more or less the equivalent of the Transformers movies i.e. something that exists to turn a profit and nothing more.

I have see that in mostly American forums and many of the times was the same group of people. That not really happen in most European/Japanese forums.

But well, is always good to discuss anime as long as people don't take it too seriously and embark on flame wars and attacking other people tastes with personal attacks.

It doesn't sound like you guys disagree very much except in tone. For the most part you're both acknowledging that SAO's not a particularly high-caliber work of art, and is best enjoyed as kind've schlocky, turn-off-your-brain entertainment. Which is fine, and is exactly how many of us who do enjoy it go about doing so.

Tirol Choco wrote:

How about actually reading the comments and forums instead of parading reviews? I mean being an advocator of Franxx should have taught you that reviewer opinion does not shape user ones. As someone who lurked the forums back then the series got slammed to hell and back. Also Nick gave two pivotal episodes D's with the most praise he garnered for the second season is...at least I wasn't bored throughout it. The same with Theron (who even gave garbage like Aldnoah/Zero a positive review) and Rebecca go on about its writing flaws with the clear consensus that its not good but it fun to watch. Even now with GGO airing people here have dubbed it "the good SAO" because Kirito and his posse aren't involved in it.

No I can clearly see there's a consensus on both Franxx and SAO all you do is cherrypick the positive and ignore the overwhelming negative. Nobody takes SAO as a franchise seriously anymore and nobody took Franxx seriously period.

Again, I do not see such a consensus, even after rereading the forums for SAO II and Ordinal Scale. I saw positive takes as well as negative ones, and at least as much critical discussion as any other show on this site. If anything probably more positive overall than here, I'll admit. I have been here since then as well (I'll have to take your word on that, given the age of your account), and I am well aware of the show's anti-fans. If the consensus is mostly negative, it does not show in the ratings on the show pages for the first two seasons and the movie (Good+, Good+, Very Good) which are in line with ratings on other English-speaking anime listing sites like MAL. I don't think anyone is mistaking it (or this show) for high art, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good TV show.

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