Forum - View topicYour Top 10 / Worst 5 things. Why? (w/ index).
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Nagisa
Moderator
 Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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No, I'm taking it for what it is. If you mean something else, then be specific and definitively say what you mean. Just saying "you just don't get it" and "I can't explain it" only leaves me to take things at face value, because you're not actually conveying what you probably want to say. Basically, spit it out if you don't want me to overanalyze it.
"Minor flaws" that are numerous and plague a show's entire run are not minor.
You missed the part where I praised the movies and the Goku/Majin Vegeta fight. Good job.
Okay, so explain your criteria for defining high quality animation. Obviously keeping consistent character proportions and making the animation smooth and consistent do not count, so I'd like to see where you draw the line between "bad" and "good."
Limited animation is a common practice for producing low-budget television animation, yes. But that's the thing: when you're using low-budget animation techniques, you are not going to produce revolutionary, high-grade animation. You get what you pay for and what time allows, and though it may have been the best DBZ's animators could do, effort alone does not make it the best animation in the world. It was still done on a tight schedule and on a restricted budget, so it's just not going to be some awe-inspiring, epic production. As for the re-use of footage, yes, something might look the same every time it's done...IF we're talking about something mechanical, like a machine performing the same designated task iover and over and over again. But in DBZ's case, we're talking about extended fight scenes where Vegeta may be throwing the same two punches the exact same way for minutes at a time. No martial artist throws the same two punches in a life-or-death duel for several minutes at a time, and no opponent just dodges for several minutes at a time. In this instance, there's really no way to say it's good animation. It's either bad animation, or bad animation with the excuse that there wasn't enough time and money to make it as good as it should've been.
Age is not really an excuse here, as there were other 80s and 90s television animations that had much smoother, much cleaner, much more consistent animation to them, both in Japan and America (and Europe, too, for that matter).
It wasn't a difficult project to take on "for its time." 200+ episode series were nothing new by 1986, as Lupin, Doraemon, and others had long since beaten Dragon Ball to it, and Crayon Shin-chan began around the same time DBZ did in the early 90s.
This isn't black-and-white. You can like animation from both continents, and I don't see why so many anime fans think you have to like either one or the other exclusively. Both Asia and North America have their separate strengths and weaknesses in animation, and I appreciate both for their strengths. Unfortunately, high-grade animation in modestly-budgeted and tightly scheduled shows spanning more than 200 episodes is not one of Japan's strengths. Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Sailor Moon, none of these shows managed to retain smooth, even, stellar animation for very lone due to the production restrictions placed upon them. The only reason Shin-chan has such smooth animation is because the designs are so insanely simplistic (which goes back to what I was saying about Simpsons and the like).
And it was his visual design style that I was referring to. Everything I mentioned (which was a mish-mash of manga, anime, and video games) features characters designed by Toriyama, using the exact same art stylings he incorporated in Dragon Ball.
You're not getting what I'm saying here. Suspension of disbelief does not necessarily mean "realistic," it means that something about the show was so capably done that it draws the audience in and makes them forget they're watching a bunch of drawings in sequence. Even something very simplistic, like The Simpsons, can suspend disbelief with exceptional animation and excellent writing. If DBZ works for you, then fine, but for me (and for a lot of people I know), the animation tended to be a hinderance more than an aid, and it was mostly the writing that was carrying all of the weight of suspending disbelief and holding attention.
How so? Neither long-running fighting anime nor Toriyama's art style are necessarily unique.
Opinion is opinion, yes, but you're being far too vague with why you have your opinion. And your accusation of other shows having bad animation when theirs is really—technically and factually—on a level far above Dragon Ball's even furthers my confusion. Your insistence that you "can't explain it" and that it's "a feeling" or somesuch doesn't really help matters. If you have an opinion, you should be able to competently explain why you have that opinion.
Animation can be smooth, consistent, and capable of really drawing an audience in without being "realistic." You're not quite understanding that, methinks.
Given that American studios don't typically rush multiple simultaneous projects on slavish assembly lines using unrealistic budget and scheduling models, I'd wager it'd look significantly better, actually. More time and more money do tend to equate to better product, and Toei in particular (Dragon Ball's producer) was known for being rather stingy with both. |
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kersmaka
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SS_Vegeta I agree with you on Nagisa and how he is way to literal and demands even the most vast amount of detail on everything. But I do admire his strong workmanship as a moderator, he is definitely not lazy. This topic has been up for 3 years now and he is still checking up on it, making sure people stay on topic and be as descriptive as humanly possible. Truthfully, I was just getting tired of typing in my last post, in which I guess you could call "lazy", so I just summed up what I was thinking in the quickest way possible with little information. But I also feel that I get inspiration when I watch DBZ, but I am going to leave it at that before I am told to write a 3 paragraph descriptive statement based on "why I think DBZ is inspiring". Not to choose sides or gang up on one but I'm just going to say that I agree with the majority of SS_Vegeta's points, especially the Final Flash comment.
But don't you think we are getting a little "off topic" Nagisa? If I were to see this "debate" about being descriptive and good/ bad animation I would be intimidated to post in fear of ridicule and harsh analysis. |
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Nagisa
Moderator
Posts: 6128 Location: Atlanta-ish, Jawjuh |
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The whole point of this thread was for people to post their top ten and then discuss them with others. If you ask me, this is one of the first times we've ever actually gotten to that second part. And all I'm wanting to know, ultimately, is if there's a real reason he thinks DBZ has so much better animation than other productions that are actually technically, functionally, objectively better, or if it's all really just nostalgia and sentimentality for an "old favorite." The fact that I have yet to get a clear answer beyond typical, immature America bashing and "I can't explain it/you just don't get it" dodges is what's forced this to become so nitpicky. I can only work with and interpret what he gives me because he's not being clear. Last edited by Nagisa on Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Icefire16
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Wow, someone who can debate evenly with forum and debate skills with nagi..
scary. 
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slapped_penguin
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I haven't watched enough anime to create a really insightful list or a bottom 5, but I'll just put my top 5.
1. Gakuen Alice This show is hilarious and a looooot of fun. It also has really really really likable characters and has my favorite anime relationships. Sure this can be said about... a LOT of other animes, but for me, it takes those traits to the MAX. It's a pity they had to stop it uncompleted. 2. Full Moon This anime is very suspenseful and invokes all kinds of emotions and has an amazing story. This was the anime that made me start watching anime, and made me think about how much more boring those past few weeks would have been without watching this gem. I also couldn't imagine not having a memory of this Full Moon. 3. Kaleido Star This is such an inspiring anime and it is filled with moments that will give you that "wow" feeling. I also guarantee you'll fall in loave with and be rooting for the main character through all the trials she goes through. 4. 12 Kingdoms Watching the main character's development throughout the anime is simply amazing. It also has one of the most creative and magical anime worlds I have ever seen. Read or Die & R.O.D. TV It was quite an experience watching the characters get through all their ordeals, whether it be from awe of watching them use their powers in the well done action scenes or just seeing what they would do next. [/b] |
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j22
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Addition to my favorite anime:
9. Mahou Sensei Negima! - I hoped there would be a story about a 10-year old kid teaching girls at least 4 years older than him, but then Negima! came. At last, my hopes have become true. Anyway, its storyline and spinoff (Negima!?) are great! Negi even had magical powers, making him a wizard, and some of his students have a crush on him. Cool! That's all for today. Thanks! |
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bonbonsrus
 Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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Have you seen the second season of Kaleido Star: New Wings yet? My children are marathoning all I have of Kaleido Star right now, and I don't own the second season yet, however, this is one I really think got much better the second season for. The story arc is unrelated to the first season, and the drama/tensions seems higher and the new characters really add quite a bit to the story. If you liked the first season, you will love the second even more. |
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Batajitsu
 Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Now I don’t have a great memory for the anime titles I have watched, but the ones that I remember the most clearly, ill put down for the top 10 and the worst 5, I wont include series that haven’t been completed, but will make special note of any series that I feel will in the future, make it onto the top 10 list. LOTS OF SPOILERS THAT ARNT COVERED UP! YOU ARE WARNED
These will be in a random order, and the numbers aside each won’t dictate which spot I place them in, in ranking of the best. 1 – Cowboy bebop (Master piece) – Stunning animation, I love the 3D mix with the smooth realistic styling. The fight scenes, both with weapons and with martial arts are simply amazing; they seem to flow with the anime. The fight scenes aren’t unrealistic, such in other animations where the main character can take on thirty guys at once without a scratch, the anime in fight scenes, suits the style that is being used. I especially enjoy the animation when Spike does one of his high kicks, I don’t know why, but I seem to enjoy the kind of nimble way the animators portray his fighting styles. The fight scenes are relatively realistic, spike does get injured, he does bleed, and he is human, and although the series portrays him as an elite fighter, it never gives the impression that his more then human. The characters designs are flawless, each says without words, everything you need to know about the character, Spike, roughish, as seen through his hair and outfit (sloppy) His attitude and such further point this out. Vicious, the white hair, sword, black coat, and the crow on his shoulder tells everything you need to know about the character before he even does any actions. Faye valentine, her outfit, the way she dresses, immediately tells us what type of person she is, her being introduced in a casino, further points out that she’s a type of con artist who would do anything to get what she wanted. And jet the mechanical arm, etc, all shows us what type of person he is, and gives us a piece of their past immediately. I guess the point I’m making here, is that the character styling are unique, there is no kind of model caste, where in many anime, although there are distinguishing features for the main crew, the background all look the same. In Cowboy even the background characters seem to have their own stories, in the manor in which they were drawn. The space battles, fast paced and well thought out, the idea that Spike and his crew aren’t that rich to afford the best equipment, and as such they used outdated or surplus weaponry, what ever is the cheapest. The very first dog fight in the first episode was simply amazing, the way they showed it from each point of view and not just a watch from the sideling kind of fight, as many other anime has. I will be honest, the plot was amazing as well, however, to me the highlight of the entire series was the events that happened in the past, and how they were reoccurring in the current day. The episode such as the cathedral, and the episodes involving Vicious/Spike confrontations, is the primary reasons that I love this anime so. That being said, I must admit, that mid way through the animation there were certain boring points, that I don’t much care for, why? I don’t know, perhaps because I wish when I watch it, that the story would get on to the more of the past filled episodes or such. And the ending, damn I was speechless, to me, this ending was perfect, I don’t understand how people could not understand, nor how people could not love this ending, it wrapped everything up, and shows that even spike was a human in the end. The animation for the movie, well it was flawless as well, I have no complaints about the movie, it relates to the actual series, unlike many shows such as naruto, Bleach and DBZ where the movies in no way could be allocated with the show. The bad guy in the animation, is human, I use this word quite a lot, and I mean it in a sense that humans are flawed, and have weaknesses, they aren’t supremely powerful. I guess one of the key reasons for me to love Bebop and believe it to be a master piece, is the portrayal that everyone is human. 2 – Neon Genesis: Evangelion: What can I say about this one? I watched it a few years back, when I really didn’t know much about anime. But the portrayal of the characters were very well done, establishing Shinji as a coward straight away, and the portrayal that these young people, who were fighting the angels, weren’t some sort of super soldiers, but again, they were just human kids, frightened but fighting because they were the only ones who could. The first fight scene told us everything we needed to know about what was to come, the sound effects for the Eva’s screams were awesome, and the different designs for the angels/ the different powers of the angels continually kept me wanting more. However, it’s the evolution within the series that makes it an anime to remember, I’m not a huge mecha fan, but Evangelion moved away from that traditional mould and into something much more original. The constant feelings of betrayal by shinji towards his father, always made me feel for him, the show somehow managed to draw my emotions into the show with the characters, feeling for them as they were put through these almost tortuous acts by Nerve. I guess Eva is also very unpredictable, I expected Asuke x Shinji to form, and for the ending to be completely like other mecha anime. It wasn’t. Eva also draws many of its foundations from biblical referencing, which added a whole new layer to the story. I could go into so much detail on how this places Eva into a class of its own But im sure you all have heard that to death. This being said, I do have some minor flaws about Eva, the lip sync in the English dub, was alright, but the use of mouth flaps when attempting to watch it now, gets very irritating. 3 – Rurouni Kenshin – Trust and Betrayal (Master piece) – This was always an anime I wanted to watch, I saw it at the rental store but could never rent it (over protective mother) but I managed to sneak it past her once, and damn was I blown away (I now own the series and most of Rurouni Kenshin the TV series) This has honestly got to be one of my favourite. The animation styles, were realistic, and weren’t on the comic side. The show didn’t use any unnecessary scenes, nor did it use any cliché’ lines, I loved the historical background that it was used within, and especially loved the detail given to the backgrounds, specially in the scenes where Kenshin would drag Tomoe through the market place, after the shinsingumi (SP?)Were after him The voice actors in both the Japanese and the English dub matched the characters, which as you all know, just makes the anime so much more realistic. The fight scene animations, although were questionable as to whether that could be done in real life, were represented in such a way that made me believe that what was happening could be done in life. The attention to detail was another factor that made me love this anime, in the second opening scene, when Kenshin is in the streets ready to assassinate the first person, when he slices through the persons torso, you can actually see the resistance that the bones are giving. The dark atmosphere, and the constant foreboding that something bad was about to happen, added to the tension of the anime, which in turn allowed me to become more involved with the situation. The mix of 3D animation to the backgrounds, I don’t know, it was the first time id saw this, and was done so artistically, that it was simply stunning. Over all why do I love this anime? The animation is stunning, the fight scenes were fluid, the atmosphere drew me into that world, and certain scenes just sent shivers down my spine. The comedy series after this, I loved but will not place it within the top ten, I will however like to make special note that Shishio makes an appearance in the final episode in the betrayal disk. (His the shadow we see who kills the spy) 4 – Jin-Roh – I don’t remember much about this anime, I must admit, but the fact that I can still remember how wowed I was by the animation, the fight scenes, the storyline, and the overall impact of the anime, has made me give this title a spot at the top. I can only remember tid bits about the show itself, but this one scene within where there were riots on the streets, fires burning etc it was just so realistic, I could of imagined it of happening within the real world. 5 – Gundam Wing – Why? I don’t really know, possibly more for sentimental reasons then anything else this was one of the first animes I remember waiting every day for a new episode to present itself, but also I loved the characters, their individual perspectives on the war and the way in which they chose to carry out their own private wars. Not to mention the fight scenes, especially in the final episodes with the wing zero vs. the epyion, inside the crumbling battle station. The story line I loved as well, the way it continually expanded as the series went on, never staying on just one plot point. There are of course the obvious criticisms, such as that all the female officers stand with one hand on their hip, and all the male characters showed little to no interest in a romantic affair (save for Duo with Hildy) Also I didn’t like within the movie how the English people shortened it, nor how the animation of the Gundams were changed, I would of preferred it to be more traditional, I did however enjoy how the characters stayed true to their beliefs throughout the entire series. 6 – Berserk – How could I forget to mention this? Blood, gore, plot, animation it has everything, I love every second of it, especially how it would constantly move forward to what we knew was happening, the mystery however of what was to happen, was always there, I really wish there was a sequel as I’m sure many do, but I wont be holding my breath…After I pass out. I’m sure everyone has heard enough about berserk to understand why it is a truly fantastic anime and why it deserves a ranking on my top ten. 7 – Spriggan the movie – If you haven’t seen this, I recommend it, the animation was realistically drawn, and although the plot was rather cliché, in that the empathise was on these type of super soldiers, I just thoroughly enjoyed watching the spectacular animated fight sequences, and the uniqueness of each of the individual Spriggans. 8 – DBZ – Primarily for sentimental reasons, it was drawn out, but I did enjoy the show, (cept the freeza saga… I know that was meant to be the last season but damn…) I enjoyed the fight scenes, and sometimes still find myself watching them again, certain scenes sent shivers down my spine in anticipation, specially the ssj2 transformation by Gohan. I found it humours, and well thought of, however as to why it’s here, is largely due to semimetal values. 9 – Bubble Gum Crisis 2040 – O wow, this was the first anime I picked up and bought, trying to break into the anime scene. I just simply loved every moment of it, I found the story line excellent, the fight scenes perfect and the originality great (although now it may not seem so original) I loved the character developments and the character designs. 10 – Martian successor Nadesico, wow ok, almost forgot about this one, ha-ha, damn this series cracks me up every time I see it, not only is it outrageously funny, but the storyline was fantastic, the designs, drawings and fight animations were also spectacular. The only thing wrong with this series as far as I was concerned, was the ending. The movie however, although different, different animation styles etc, I too thoroughly loved the movie. 11 – I’m just going to add one more in as this would take the place of spriggan, but I decided to list both, since both are worthy of credit. GTO! Great teacher onizuka. Ok wow, I loved it, the animation was great, really worked well with the series, the humour was perfect and I loved every moment of it, specially the unpredictability of the show. (I know my explanations went down a little each as the list went on, but im getting tired so I did summarise some of the lists into the main points) Worst titles – I have a bad memory for titles I don’t care for, as such the titles that I remember not liking will be placed in here. And subject to change should the need arise these are in order. 1 – Boogy pop phantom – I don’t remember much about this, but I do remember I hated it, I didn’t like the plot. Nor the character stylings, the dialogue seemed bland, and although I only saw a few episodes, this story did not reel me in. 2 – Gasaraki – It looked good, looked being the operative word, it had some good moments, some good mecha fights, the animation was realistic and the events were so as well, however the show was almost an entire political battle, constant politics ruined the series for me, too much talk not enough action, if you know what I mean. The plot just seemed to of been drawn out over too many episodes to be able to be enjoyable. 3 – Mezzo DSA – To be honest I don’t know why I’ve placed this here, it has a unique setting a mix of advanced technology with modern day weaponry and fashion, the primarily reasons I’ve placed this here however, would probably be mostly due to the character designs, I wasn’t attracted to the anime styles used, nor to the dialogue, I found it to be rather cliché’ and a but over the top. However, I did watch this a long time ago, and my memory could possibly be wrong, I just remember that I didn’t like this anime enough to continue with the series, and the prime reason I didn’t enjoy the animation of the characters. 4 – DBGT –Ok, although I enjoyed parts of the series, I really believed that it should of ended with DBZ, there was no great step in an animation designs, and the plot just seemed stale, I mean after so many episodes of DBZ, the things being shown in GT just weren’t new to me anymore. 5 – There was this one title, I cant remember, that a lill boy would go around hitting people with a bat, and that would fix their problems or something, I don’t remember the name, but I do know that the series didn’t hook me, possibly due to my first impressions, I don’t know. 6 (last one) – Monster, its very slow paced, I hear its not a bad anime, but the plot was moving so very slow that I just had to put it down, like we knew what was happening, we knew who the bad guy was, but the series just keeps going, it was kind of a disappointment, I was expecting something that would rival death note, I was mistaken. That being said, the animation and the concepts weren’t that bad at all. Note worthy anime that I believe will make it onto the top ten, bumping off DBZ, Gundam and Spriggan Claymore, Naruto, Bleach, Hellsing ultimate < You all know enough about these, its no wonder I would add them. However, I just started watching Romeo X Juliet, and damn I was blown away by the stunning animation, the mix of 3D designs etc the fight scenes are so detailed, as are the characters, this is defiantly an anime I will be checking up on. Also although its Romeo and Juliet, it’s a different setting, etc it’s completely original, other then having the names and the themes of the original Romeo and Juliet. Sorry about the lack of detail on some of these, but I hope you get what I was aiming for, my mind is starting to wain from trying to remember the titles and my arm is getting sore from writing these, if you want more detail on any, feel free to ask and i can post up more. I’ll update as I remember more, or see more. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11445 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Uh.. wow. You thought Monster was too slow, but you rate Jin-Roh as your #4 favorite  ? Like, 95% of that movie was dialogue. I enjoyed it a lot myself as I'm not too picky about dialogue-heavy titles, but the level of writing and stability within Monster for the entire 74 episodes is just in a whole different ballpark. If the anime felt too drudging, at least give the manga a read. It's pretty much the exact same thing, only you can go at a faster pace by reading the panels. Not to mention it's only 18 volumes .
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Yo tonyK only saw the first 10 epps or so of monster, that could also contribute to why i thought so lowly of it, but i really cant bring myself to watch the rest of the series.. And the rankings for the top 10 werent in any order.
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11445 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Ah, just noticed that. But yeah, I'm sorry you couldn't get into it. Personally, I'd take Monster over Death Note because I think it's more impressive for a good crime/police drama that doesn't have any kind of science fiction or supernatural twist (though GitS: SAC is pretty darn good to where I've gotten now). To be so rich and deep in writing and plot twists with just regular people and a few guns every now and then isn't something you see a lot of these days. |
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Honestly the reason i like death note so much, is because were watching it from the main bad guys perespective, which is kind of rare in anime, im kind of sick of seeing those perfectly lawful good characters, i like my main guys flawed and evil hrhrhrhr.
But the way death note keeps you on edge is what i enjoyed about it, i say enjoyed spoiler[since its gone done after L's death.] Monster honestly was "ok" to me, but i saw where it was heading, or thought i did, i heard some really bad reviews form freinds who had seen it and was paralel to the thinking i had, and just couldnt bring myself to stand another 60 or so epps of the same old thing. (Btw if anyone is offended because I've listed something that you like that i dont, im sorry but this is just from my impressions) |
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Mirrinus
 Posts: 230 Location: La Thiene Plateau |
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This would be Paranoia Agent. Your reaction is quite understandable, it's a bizarre show that doesn't click with many viewers. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11445 Location: Frisco, TX |
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No problem at all! Opinions of certain titles will always vary from person to person, even for those who like the same one. It's just a matter of your own personality and the way you interpret things.
The first half was easy for me to pick up. But the second half... -_-... I need to rewatch it someday. However, after taking Abnormal Psych. a couple of semesters ago, I think I have an idea of how to go about understanding the series a little better now. Hopefully, I'll rewatch it before most of that knowledge leaves me. |
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Batajitsu
Posts: 51 Location: Sydney, Australia |
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Yes, thats the one i was thinking of, thank you for clarifying that 
I only watched the first few episodes, but it just didn't click... |
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