Forum - View topicEpisode Review: Akame ga KILL!
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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Well if you've been reading my responses, it should be fairly simple and obvious that I am comparing them because they have a crap ton of the same types of themes, scenes, mixture of over-the-top violence and humor, seemingly psychopathic villains, and revolution against corrupt imperial power structure type of plot, among other things. I find it funny how people praise KlK and show disdain for AgK. |
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Jayhosh
 Posts: 972 Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania |
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And just to add to my previous post, the series does dip its toes into somewhat thought provoking ideas every once in a blue moon. But that is very rare and more often than not those compelling ideas are not explored at all. Like the part where they correct Tatsumi and tell him that regardless of their purpose, they still kill people. They're still murderers. When this conversation went down I thought we'd get some really interesting developments with the characters concerning that idea. But they pretty much contradict themselves by not giving a crap about who they kill. I don't mind simple good vs. evil setups, but that's when the show realizes that it is unrealistic. This series has a good vs the bad guys mentality without wanting to admit it.
And I agree with leatherhead, that Justice girl was actually kind of interesting. too bad they just went along and attacked her without really trying to understand why she was attacking them or what her motives were. And the fanbase apparently hates her. Why? because she killed one of the "good guys." Don't even get me started on the whole harem thing the fans make it into, what with all their "Tatsumi X *insert pretty much any female character, or Bulat, no hate*" |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24009 |
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I keep on seeing this kind of comment, but I see absolutely no evidence of it from the show itself. I don't believe the makers of this show think they are making "mature entertainment" anymore than the makers of JoJo do. People, let me repeat myself: juxtaposing goofy humour with gore and serious stuff is not an attempt to be seen as being "mature entertainment." Jesus, this kind of thing has been going on since the dawn of anime. Anime has a different entertainment tradition than a lot of Western entertainment. In the West it is relatively rare to mix goofy humour with grimness. It isn't in anime. Look, it's cool if people don't like this show but can we please dispense with the notion that the makers are striving for some kind of "mature entertainment" because it's kind of braindead. What I do find is that they are striving for some interesting story-telling techniques, like making some of the villains sympathetic or giving them unexpected whims (i.e. a sadistic general who wants to fall in love, etc.) or making it obvious that protagonists are quite likely to die. Again, this not intended to be perceived as some kind of revolutionary or profound exercise but imo, it does make for compelling viewing. |
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Jayhosh
Posts: 972 Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania |
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The answer is right there in the post that you quoted. Most would agree that Kill la Kill is not meant to be taken seriously, whereas Akeme ga Kill on the other hand, is. That is if its tone is anything to go by. It's not a problem of one being given the special treatment more than the other. Kill la Kill is about girls in stripper clad outfits fighting against alien clothing that is attempting to take over the universe. The crazy thing is that I'm not exaggerating any of that. Akeme on the other hand is about assassins who kill bad guys who do bad things like abuse the poor. Which do you think is supposed to be the more serious and mature show. The problem is that AgK doesn't treat its concept with the maturity it warrants. KlK doesn't have maturity, it's doesn't need to live up to any deep premise. It can be as shameless as it wants, and now that I think about it, Akeme has probably had a lot more of those moments in it up until this point than KlK had in its entire run. No, I don't find it funny how people praise KlK but criticize Akeme. |
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Jayhosh
Posts: 972 Location: Millmont, Pennsylvania |
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Hey you know what, I agree with you on that. Bad choice of words. It contradicts my thoughts that it doesn't treat its premise with the seriousness it warrants. But I do think that it does the opposite of what you say. In that it has that try-hard feel to it. Like it's trying to be really edgy. And I guess to an obvious extent it succeeds. I do think the creators want it to be semi serious, but they just don't know how to properly present that. If they didn't want you to take it seriously they wouldn't constantly add in sad backstories that fill up the running time of each episode. Or stuff like Tatsumi grieving over his dead friends. So in that sense, I disagree. But you can of course believe that it's not meant to be taken seriously. I do somewhat agree with you on the villain's motivations part. They weren't really interesting, but probably moreso than the actual main characters and their motives. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Well I'm not sure what rock you might have been under during KlK's run, but yes there are TONS of people who take KlK deadly seriously. There are like entire cults of people who have psycho-analyzed every little aspect of KlK, claiming that there are religious meanings behind it and coming up with innumerable metaphorical explanations of the COVERS. Also, whatever people might thing about which of the two shows is more serious, I find it more than a bit hilarious how there is this position that showing evil and heavy violence in a more serious show is somehow a terrible thing, but showing evil and heavy violence in a cartoonish ridiculous show is like, the best thing ever. It seems like a bizarro world take on violence in media. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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OK, there are people out there who took Kill la Kill too seriously and apparently also ignored the tone and execution of all of it in service of doing so.
This really doesn't make your comparison less specious. Last edited by Zac on Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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SailorTralfamadore
 Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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I don't think that's a realistic expectation at all. The fact of the matter is that "problematic" stuff like sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. tends to bother people more in works that they dislike than in works that they like. The same is true with any other fault in fiction, tbh; people only notice "plot holes" if the work is failing to hold their attention on a bunch of other fronts, for instance. And this is true with stuff that very personally offends you, too. I'm a woman, and I was made uncomfortable by a lot of the fanservice in Kill la Kill, or a lot of the sexist humor in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. I'm bisexual, and I wasn't a fan of some of the jokes in the Lobelia episodes of OHSHC about lesbians. But the fact that those shows had so much else to offer me made me willing to - not overlook, but forgive them for those slights. Akame ga Kill is not on the level of any of those shows in quality or entertainment value, and so the uncomfortable stuff stood out and turned my stomach a lot more. (I'd also say that the misogyny I saw in just one episode of AgK far surpassed what I saw in those other works I mentioned, but I suspect continuing to argue this will just go nowhere. There's also that different kinds of misogyny will upset different women to different degrees - e.g. a rape survivor will likely find sexual-assault-as-plot-device/gag to be more of a dealbreaker than a woman who has never been raped.) I'm all for people acknowledging that there are "problematic" aspects of the works they like and not making excuses for them. But that doesn't mean you have to pretend they bother you more than they do. That doesn't mean that in a review on a site like this (i.e., not a feminist/LGBT/social-justice-focused site) that you have to spend a lot of time talking about them if you think other aspects of it deserve more of your attention and analysis. Honestly, I wish that the types of would-be "reviewers" you see on Tumblr who are into talking about this stuff would acknowledge the "yeah, problematic things are going to bother you more in some works than others" aspect, instead of turning all their posts into social-justice checklists that don't tell you anything about how they personally felt about a TV show or video game or whatever. That's not good reviewing, in my opinion. A review is someone's opinion and while it's written with some awareness of what their audience will think, actual "objectivity" doesn't enter into it at all. Last edited by SailorTralfamadore on Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:51 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Yea, and I had to argue with a number of them in the ANN forum. You can go back and look at the KlK thread if you think I'm kidding. They were going HARD, and there weren't a whole lot of people disagreeing with them. Also, the ANNcast spends a decent amount of time talking about how KlK is feminist rather than being anti-woman. Again, I have no problem with people liking KlK. I enjoyed the show. I just think there's a lot of evidence of double standard here. |
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Seif
 Posts: 458 |
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Having depth and something being intended as campy fun are not mutually exclusive. You can have a light-hearted absurd show and still write it well. Last edited by Seif on Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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What you're doing is really obvious - it's the old "if you feel this way about objectionable content in this show, then you have to feel this way about the objectionable content in this other show because according to my personal interpretation they're so similar that this comparison holds up!" It's an attempt to make the people debating with you look like hypocrites, which is the fastest way to delegitimize their entire view on the show, a show you really enjoy. The problem is that for your argument to function at all here you have to completely remove tone, execution, and all nuance from the discussion in order to make this comparison, to even begin making this argument, which 100% hinges on the tone, execution and nuance being nearly identical between the two things in order for you to effectively call the reviewer a hypocrite. The reason most people are calling BS on the Kill la Kill comparison is that if you sat any thinking person down and asked them to watch Kill la Kill and Akame ga Kill back to back they wouldn't draw any comparison besides surface-level context-ignorant "well they both have shocking scenes in them". So your argument kinda sucks, dude. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Well, yes. If someone writes a lengthy, very strongly worded and very absolutist broadside against a very specific aspect of the show and claims that that aspect of the show is extremely offensive, and sucks away from the show's overall value in some significant fashion that should be obvious, then yes I think that kind of very strong position should be consistently applied in other shows. The specific example we are speaking of here is that two brief scenes in Akame ga Kill (the introduction of Bulat and the introduction of one of the Villains, both of which indicate that the character is or could be gay, and both times where another male character is frightened of that in some way) is so obviously and outrageously offensive that we should all be up in arms and unable to say that the show is a great show. My point was, if that is so obviously offensive in that way, then the violent anal rape joke scene in Kill la Kill should be even more outrageously and obviously offensive, and should detract from Kill la Kill in an even more drastic manner. I don't understand how that is somehow unfair. I mean, if the position is that an allegation of hypocrisy is in and of itself an unacceptable allegation, even when there is clear evidence of it, then so be it. I think I am being completely straightforward in my analysis on that point and no one is flawless in their critiques of anime shows, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that such an inconsistent treatment can surface from time to time.
I'm not trying to delegitimize someone's entire view on the show. I'm only trying to delegitimize the very specific argument that is being made here, and not consistently applied in other similar circumstances. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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ChibiKangaroo, what this all essentially comes down to is that art isn't math. One thing in one instance with specific connotation and context =/= another thing in a different instance with different connotation and context. The two cannot be compared, and the only fair way to judge the show is against itself and its own context. You want people to directly compare the two so badly, though? Oooookay! Here it is: Joke in Kill La Kill: Bad guy gets a kendo sword rammed up his vulnerable butthole. Cut to shot of rose exploding. Tonal Context: Campy and ridiculous scene where character's butt is hanging out the underbelly of an enormous robotic crab. The shell everywhere else is too hard to pierce, so our hero attacks the weak point for massive damage, and this is what finally takes him out after minutes of arduous fighting. Implication/why it is meant to be funny: The bad guy forgot to cover his butt quite literally, so it became his weak spot. Japan has a long history of finding goosing to be funny. I know there's a specific term for jamming two fingers up someone's ass, you see it in anime all the time, along with the rose imagery. Rose=butt-cherry, apparently. Is it offensive?: Yeah, kinda. The goosing all by itself maybe not, but at least the whole butt-cherry-lost thing is not in great taste. ===================================== Joke(s) in Akame ga Kill: Male veteran in combat unit (good or bad) flirts with new male recruit. Cut to shot of new recruit freaking out. Tonal Context: Mostly expositional, just a little lighthearted/comedic, framed so that we are meant to sympathize with the new recruit in both cases, and how insane and abnormal all his new fellow soldiers are. Implication/why it is meant to be funny: Gay people are weird, effeminate, and slightly threatening because they (apparently) flirt with members of the same sex. (This is not true of course, and stems from a very obvious male fear of being treated the way they treat women.) Still, in context, the new recruit is framed as being completely justified in his discomfort. We feel bad for him being put in such an awkward situation. That guy really is weird and off-putting! (For flirting with another man.) Is it offensive?: Oh my god, yes. Oooooh my gooooood, yes. YES. YES IT IS. Art isn't math, but if that's how you want to see it, that's the best I can break it down for you. |
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Videogamep
 Posts: 564 Location: CA |
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The problem with this debate is that it's about two extremely subjective topics: humor and offensiveness. I don't find the show to be particularly offensive or (with the exception of a few jokes here and there) particularly funny but I still think it's good. I've never seen much depth aside from a few moments but it doesn't really need it to be entertaining. It seems like everyone just needs to agree to disagree.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I certainly agree with you that art isn't math. And really, the only reason I am arguing against you to this extent is because you took such an absolutist position on Akame ga Kill!'s supposed anti-gay stance, but you are giving such huge wiggle room to Kill la Kill. I don't think that is fair. For example, I'm going to link an actual video of the scene from Kill la Kill, since I think that gif that I posted before doesn't even fully capture the tone of the scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3saGPeSp5ro I remembered the scene being fairly excessive in it's crude reference to gay sex, but I didn't remember the full extent of it. To be fair it is just not close to the relatively benign characterization you give above. This is not a simple goosing or a weak point being attacked in the heat of battle. Takarada is very clearly positioned in a sexual "ready" position. After Takarada protests what Uzu is obviously about to do, Uzu begins jamming his sword repeatedly into the outer butt hole of Takarada's mecha, saying "Thrust! Thrust! Thrust" over and over and over again. Takarada is then shown crying out with his eyes closed and face tilted upwards, and his mouth hanging open, as if he is on the receiving end of sex. Uzu thrusts harder and faster, continuing to say "Thrust! Thrust! Thrust!" until the outer covering is broken off and exposing a butt hole closer to Takarada's body. Takarada then says "NO, not there!! Anywhere but there!!" Uzu then yells "THRUST!!!" and jams it in deep, and someone says "OH YES!!" and then flowers bloom on the screen, while happy fairy-like music plays." Again, this is not some simple prank of a kid running up and jamming someone in the butt, so I think your analysis is pretty far off there. It is totally clear from the video that this was meant to be an explicit sexual joke of Takarada being analy raped by Uzu, and how scary that is!! (Even though he might secretly love it... because... gay right?) So compare with Akame ga Kill! As I have said more than once, I did find Bulat's introduction to be crude and evidenced discrimination by Tatsumi. However, my whole point has been that I don't think the show is anti-gay because a significant portion of Tatsumi's character arc is then based on how he grows to see Bulat as one of the most important and valuable people in his life. He doesn't dwell on his initial reaction, and very quickly starts calling Bulat "big brother." Soon, he clearly has very strong affection for him and sees him as a role model and ideal for himself to live up to. This whole sequence is very real and relevant for real life I think. It doesn't just play off this "gay character" as some joke and maintain that concept as this scary guy who comes on the scene and does outrageous gay stuff. Bulat is shown time and again as the most brave, strong and honorable character in Night Raid, and becomes the closest person to Tatsumi. Ultimately Tatsumi very literally follows in his footsteps. This is the defining aspect of the Bulat character arc, and the fact that Tatsumi was initially afraid of him (back when the story made very clear that Tatsumi was VERY immature) is really left behind as nothing but the simple minded impulses of a very immature boy. Last edited by ChibiKangaroo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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