Forum - View topicGAME: Dragon's Crown
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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If you're talking about the blog...Wundergeek is a woman. My point was that Tae-Kim is a terrible artist. |
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GarnetStyle
Posts: 28 |
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Nope, you're still trying to get that content hidden from the product no matter if its pre production or post production. It may have some technical term difference but you're still saying to change a product from what the creator originally wanted. Hey your Avatar offends me because it's about underage girls engauging in sexual activity so I ask that for your posts to be more inclusive towards women and posters everywhere that you refrain from putting things like that in your avatar. How do you respond to that one?
That just means you lack the power and force to make it happen, which is great.
Hey, you like Transmetorpolitan? Good, I can't read it because of it's graphic depictions of violence and nudity in it. I'd like to enjoy Transmetropolitan without all the violence and nudity, so I feel it should not have insulting stupid depictions of men and women in those situations. So what do you say? Surely being more inclusive to readers is more important than keeping any of the violence in that comic You wouldn't want to be self-serving about this because you want the comic to stay the same way it is, do you?
None and no one, thankfully It's all just talk but that doesn't change the fact people are seriously saying 'don't include this' 'don't put this in' 'don't make a game with this' That is saying you're fine with censorship. This is when a dev not concerned about professionalism tells those people to go screw themselves if they don't like it. Which I think people like Hideki and Kamitani have plenty of times. Last edited by GarnetStyle on Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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walw6pK4Alo
Posts: 9322 |
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Okay, that's an opinion. People dislike a ton of artists I enjoy dearly, but I try not to cry bloody murder about it. |
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Kakugo
Posts: 163 |
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Yeah, seriously. I think the faces are cute, and I like the ridiculous clothing design - it's unusual, it's colorful and it tends to make me snort without actually trying to. His anatomy's awful, though, no argument there. I also like Tetsuo Hara and Go Nagai as artists - neither of whom wouldt know how to draw a man's actual basic anatomy if their life depended on it. Doesn't mean I can't find the overall concept and aesthetics of their art interesting enough to overcome their inadequacies at recognizing the basic shape of the human form. If "anatomy" were a prequisite for liking an artists' work, there's damned few game, manga or anime designers who would qualify. |
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TrailOfDead
Posts: 198 |
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the esrb and the riaa warning stickers are industry responses to perceived market forces. you seem to think that the creators of intellectual property and the people who control the means of distributing it are working towards the same goal. this will lead you to many false conclusions |
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Cecilthedarkknight_234
Posts: 3820 Location: Louisville, KY |
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However they where heavy influenced by outcry of concerned parents, religious groups etc. I don't have a problem with self regulation in the media industry. I however do no like them being made by force with fear of governmental bans/pressure from voters. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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No it doesn't. It means exactly what I said. You can tell someone they should do something while still respecting their right to not listen. Whether I have the power to force them is irrelevant.
Nobody is buying this silly rhetoric. Just stop. |
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GarnetStyle
Posts: 28 |
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Your refusal to answer the question says more than an actual answer would. You're quick to cite it on something you disapprove of, but the minute it applies to something you do like, it's a silly rhetoric. Comic books have had a stigma against female readers for the longest time so it makes the comparison all the more fitting. |
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Chagen46
Posts: 4377 |
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He's not answering you because your question is irrelevant and designed expressly to derail the conversation because your argument has fallen flat on its face.
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belvadeer
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I've never seen so many pages of back and forth on a game article here before. Same with the recent X Button. And all it took was a pair of boobs to stoke the fires. That says something.
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shamisen the great
Posts: 658 Location: Oregon, USA |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I didn't answer your question because I've already been through it several times. You're just parroting the same flawed rhetoric that people have been using since the start of this topic. Obviously it is impossible to please and include everyone and if you try to you'll just end up with a work that nobody likes. But this game could just as easily tone down the ridiculous female character designs without really diminishing what makes it good in any way. I should think it would be pretty clear too why it's okay to be exclusionary based on one's arbitrary and subjective taste but not so much when the exclusion centers heavily around a person's gender. If you're still going to pretend you don't see the distinction...well I give up. You can go ahead and pat yourself on the back for "winning" the argument. And all you had to do was pretend to be really really dumb. *slow clap*
And I'll be the first one to criticize them for it, just like with Dragon's Crown. |
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Oranges
Posts: 4 |
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I wanted to chime in my thoughts on Dragon's Crown and all of these 'issues' so many people seem to having with their character designs. Although I don't believe there's anything wrong with mentioning the overly exaggerated art style it's always the tone in which they mention it that bothers me and many others. If it's distasteful, offensive or otherwise embarrassing to you, that's fine -- this game clearly isn't for you and you have every right to ignore this game.
What really annoys me are these things going on in EVERY Dragon's Crown thread: The '14-year old jerk off fantasy' or 'you have the mind of a 14-year old' and how it's demeaning women. Why demean the people who enjoy the art style and it's ARTIST for enjoying large breasts? Is it more mature to enjoy other parts of the female body? Or is it that you don't care about sex anymore? Some men like breasts, some like butts -- whatever the part, why does it matter? Yes, women aren't just sex objects and depicting them that way is harmful. But Dragon's Crown DOES NOT depict them that way. So many people are so caught up in the art style and their own distaste for it that they seem to not notice that in no way are women inferior to males. They are in no way any more objectified then the male characters in this game either. The claim that males aren't sexualized and that they're some sort of 'power fantasy' is literally males looking at it from a male perspective. You're basically claiming that men can enjoy looking buff powerful while women would/should be embarrassed for showing cleavage and having overly large breasts. This again is incredibly one sided as women have every opportunity to 'fantasize' themselves as any of the character types as I truly believe they made every effort to make male/female equivalents of each body type. Just because you don't see the males as 'sexualized' doesn't mean they aren't. Regardless, the point is if the art offends you -- obviously it's not to your taste or liking and you should pass. But this is George Kamitani's game, the one he wanted to make, so don't demean him or anyone who enjoys his work by saying it's in some way a bane to society or women. He doesn't need to tone it down because he made it the way HE WANTED TO. There's a difference between games that are made to be inclusive to everyone and games made because someone wants the make one out of pure passion and love for the medium. I believe this is the case with Dragon's Crown. Don't cry foul because you're personally offended by George's art direction as he has shown no sign of specifically trying to alienate or demean a particular gender. |
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faintsmile1992
Posts: 295 Location: England |
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Jesus, look at people go on about something so trivial.
It won't even matter in the long run, because over in Japan if you talk about some of the concepts expressed in this thread they'll think you're mad. As long as Japanese males (and females...?) will buy things like Dragons Crown they will continue to be produced. Still no publicity is bad publicity for the western sales, right? As for female gamers, I do actually understand something of this (at least in the UK). In the Megadrive/SNES era there were lots of girl gamers became alienated when the PlayStation (the Saturn and N64 never took off here) targeted more squarely at males with its menu of soccer games and racing, and PC gaming went down the gun mad FPS route, which was later to be followed by the consoles. So no, breast size isn't what alienated female gamers is it, not when Tomb Raider has been one of the most popular games among girls. If the games industry alienated females, a demographic that was actually neglected until recently, its only because the industry chose to concentrate on other demographics. There was no "sexism", its just that guns, racing cars and soccer don't appeal to most girls. If you look at games girls do play, they are different games that 'exclude' boys and men. I do hope the industry doesn't bow down to the attention seekers on Tumblr and Reddit - sites where you can't even tell the genuine kooks from the trolls. If someone says it on Reddit, its best to ignore anyone said it. |
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Guile
Posts: 595 |
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The talk of alienating female buyers is a flawed one, because it assumes there actually are female buyers to alienate. While plenty of women play games already, how many more are realistically ready to jump into the hobby but hold back because of this? Are there any kind of numbers or is this mere speculation? I feel people on the internet lose sight of reality when it comes to issues like these. As a few female posters have apparently shown us so far, it's clearly not a cut and dry issue and there are plenty of females out there who seem perfectly fine with these issues. I can't imagine the thousands of Cammy and Chun Li cosplayers out there have an issue with objectification if they willingly dress as these characters. Surely they would not emulate characters they find problematic or horrible.
If the amount of females who buy products outweighs the supposed alienated female market, then it should not be a surprise when companies go for the bigger market. Remember, this is a business, and money talks. If people truly want to change something, they need to put their money where their mouth is. The problem is the money so far has been insignificant and irrelevant, and all the outcry of these issues are from a vocal minority who no sane company would listen to because they would lose money if they did. Remember Me became a poster child of this. It was shunned by publishers and told it wouldn't sell due to it's female protagonist, to which people said the publishers were being sexist. As fate would have it, Remember Me didn't sell in the end, and in fact was a terrible, terrible flop. Even if you found the view sexist, it was the correct view in the end. This hobby is a business first and foremost, after all. The market controls the medium, and if the amount of people who want change are as insignificant as they appear, you should not act surprised when you are ignored. |
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