Forum - View topicREVIEW: Vividred Operation Episodes 1-6 Streaming
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14853 |
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In short, what if nobody involved was scarred or abused when ignorance is bliss, is there a difference between works of fiction whether animation and live-action. Just interested in what Zac thinks of that scenario, s'all.
If ya take it that way, then so be it. 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Fence, I've reported you. You've resorted to mere name calling and it's clear that you have no intention of discussing this maturely.
Call me when you've settled down and are willing to make actual arguments. Mad_Scientist, I not once said that the people who enjoy the Vividred Operation fanservice actually are into real-life little girls. Nor did I imply it either. It seems like you are misunderstanding my position. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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You said that the "titillation appeal" of Vividred is the same. What exactly did you mean by that, then? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The overwhelming majority of Otaku (primarily talking about Japanese Otaku*) don't have any interest in real-life children. They would never think of inappropriately touching or harming a real-life girl, nor do they have a sexual desire for them. I think - I hope - we can all agree on that.
Yet two-dimensional girls? Fair game for sexualisation. Fair game for fapping. Fair game for drawing porn of, both tame and extremely graphic. So while Otaku have no interest in real-life girls, there is something about animated girls that they are drawn to. The titillation of sexualising an innocent girl is the same in both cases, only animated girls cannot be victims, which is the only real difference. That's what I was saying. Now, if someone can prove to me that the mechanism in people's brains for being attracted to animated girls is different than being attracted to real-life girls, and that the titillation aspects of both are fundamentally different, then I'll be happy to re-evaluate my position. But I will say (and this is being aimed primarily at Fence) that I'm not going to change my position if all anyone is going to do is call me an "idiot" and a "disingenuous slimeball". * Please do not take that to mean that I'm saying Western Otaku are into real little girls. Not at all. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Does anyone have a compelling reason why I shouldn't lock this thread?
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Well, it's a talkback thread for a review that came out... yesterday, so I'm sure there are people who might have things they want to comment on, and who just haven't gotten around to it yet. And I think it would be a shame if said people would be locked out from doing so, just because of the actions of a handful of posters. Yah, I know I contributed to the mess a little at the end. Sorry. I wanted to comment on what dtm42 said, but I probably should have just left things alone. Anyways, I think a "let's drop the real life/animated child porn discussions, further posts on that will be deleted and the posters dealt with" warning might suffice enough, without needing to lock the thread. |
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Fencedude5609
 Posts: 5088 |
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Delete most of the last two pages, ban the next person who uses child porn as an analogy for anything but child porn. |
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Mohawk52
Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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In other words, do Fencedude5609 a favour and erase the posts where he goes off the rails, then ban anyone who doesn't agree with his position so he doesn't have to respond with a reasoned argument. Could he be any one-sided?
*sighs* Yeah, please just lock the thread. Either that or do what Mad_Scientist proposed and warn that no further child porn discussion is to take place. |
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DmonHiro
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Sorry, nope. If we were actually talking about episode 1-6, like how the transformation scenes are kind of cool, a the the design of the powered up first Alone was really awesome, maybe there would be some merit to this thread. As it stands, it's just people arguing about fanservice and... child porn? I don't even want to know how that came up. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23996 |
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It's a cute show. I've watched up to episode six now. I like the visual look and the girls are adorable. I like the fanservice - the character designer is clearly an ass-man and I think he's turning me into one, too - but you could strip all of it out and I'd still enjoy the show a lot. The fanservice is seasoning, not a key ingredient for me.
And you guys should really pay attention to what dtm42 has to say about the sexualization of underage girls in anime. After all:
Take a look at what he approves of.  Warning: you may not want to click on that link if anyone else is around. It's a non-nude image, but I'm guessing you wouldn't really want a boss/parent/wife/girlfriend/FBI agent seeing you look at it.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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Actually, I think the whole issue between how we imagine things in our head and what exists in reality is an interesting subject. Unfortunately, it has little to do with the actual review, which only mentioned this issue in passing. I'd say that the thread should be locked if that aspect of the discussion persists, mainly because this probably isn't the right venue for it. However, if we can keep the discussion reasonably civil and if Zac's issue isn't with the subject, but rather how some people have been discussing it, then...
Then I do think there's a difference between how we imagine things in our head and how things really are. Whatever I might imagine about anime girls (or even real girls), it's not real. Even with real women (or people in general) they don't act like we imagine they do; their viewpoints and beliefs aren't what we think they are. No, we idealize things, we make assumptions, we ignore faults, or sometimes exaggerate them. We create pictures, images, attitudes, viewpoints which may or may not be accurate, and sometimes we cling to them because we *want* them to be true. If we "fall in love" with an anime person, oft-times, *that* is what we are really embracing: our own interpretation of someone. And for some people, that image is more important, even much more important, than the real thing (if a real thing even exists). Furthermore, there are some things that are fun to think about, but which we would never *want* to be real, because we know (consciously or subconciously) that if that thing were real, it would *not* be fun. It is *only* fun *because* it isn't real, and because we know that we can play with it in our imaginations without there being any significant consequences -- because no one will be hurt, physically, emotionally, or in any other way. Some people have a problem seperating what is real with what is not. Some people give their imaginations too much purchase: they want what they imagine to be real so much that they overwrite reality in their heads. Such people are messed up mentally and need help, and those in that group are not the ones I'm talking about here. So, in regards to a show like Vividred, I don't think that guys who get their kicks from portrayls of barely-teen (if that) girls are actually (or necessarily) attracted to RL barely-teen girls. But I personally don't find them attractive: they don't do anything for me. And, as I said in the thread about the show, I don't like that sort of "camera work" with the camera jerking around in such a way to force my attention to focus where it wants it, rather than where *I* want it. So I dropped the show almost immediately. But if other people like it, they're certainly entitled to it. Oh, and Zac, if you do think this subject doesn't belong on this thread, then feel free to delete this entire post. I won't mind at all. |
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Ghost_Wheel
 Posts: 203 |
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You can lock this thread if you wish or delete my post if you feel it is unwarranted, I just have one thing to add that I don't believe had been brought up.
I don't think the "animated vs. cp" discussion is really getting at the right question. In my opinion, its about ideals and gender roles. Think about the way advertisements define our culture. The basic theory is that people will buy what's in the ad because they believe that the product will make their lives better. The way an ad tends to convince people of this is by defining an ideal person(often splitting the male and female definition), and illustrating how the product makes them an ideal person. Often in the same way, an action movie character or the hero in a romantic comedy is someone you want the audience to relate to or look up to. The problem is that this is often circular, and that as the ideals build up on each other, they start to be implicit goals for anyone living in the society for which they are constructed. Where this overlaps with Vividred and shows like it is the sense that younger women are being used as the main characters, with traits such as innocence, immaturity, and naivety often being principal aspects of the character. Children are used because more often than adults, they exhibit behavior that would be considered "moe" or "cute". By sexualizing these characters, the show is making an indirect statement about how these qualities are desirable in women. I think the creators of anything with the power to define an ideal should understand the ramifications of doing so, especially in the case of a widely selling or popular show like Vividred. No one thing has complete control, mind you, but the fact that is show is selling well is both a consequence and a cause in the circle that allows the idea to persist as highly as it does. One of my favorite action heroes (not just in anime) is Birdy from Birdy the Mighty: Decode. She is mature, intelligent, confident, strong, and a true individual. I'm not saying that my ideals should be the ones that are displayed prominently, or that anything else is harmful, but there are many different alternatives to Vividred, some more harmful than others. To me, the enduring question of how to approach this paradigm in our society has always been an interesting one, though for now, I'll leave my train of thought off here. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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So you think there's some distinction to be drawn between when a child is actively being abused and exploited and is aware of it and if they're being surreptitiously abused and exploited by someone doing it secretly, without their knowledge. Sometimes I wonder if folks like you think before you type. "Does this make me sound like an intensely creepy person splitting hairs to justify my awful fetish?" should've been the question you asked yourself before posing me this scenario. Because the answer is 'yes'. There's a reason putting hidden cameras in a bathroom is illegal, because you are still abusing and exploiting people. Just because they won't know about it until they see the video on some youporn site doesn't mean it's A-OK to exploit people in this manner, and anyone doing it to children should be castrated and tossed in a pit somewhere. Jesus, you people make my head hurt sometimes. "Ah, but did you think about it THIS WAY?! Am I blowing your mind with my amazing internet logic acrobatics??" is normally really obnoxious, trying to apply it to "ah but am I REALLY a super creepy guy?!" is even worse. |
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