Forum - View topicMoe hate vis-à-vis Moe love.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13246 |
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Perhaps, but it's not like moe is a cultural norm. It's just a word fans use to describe something. No different from saying some one is "hot" or "sexy."
Either way, it's a Japanese word invented in Japan in reference to Japanese media. As such I'd trust its use in said media over an english web page. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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So often it depends on context, like in this case. (And so often it doesn't, I'm not denying that.) Maybe I just don't have as dirty a mind as some. I saw that picture and never for one second thought, "Man, I would totally like to have a threesome with those two, especially the Loli." Nor did I think, "Sure hope those two get it on." I didn't even go, "Wow, Asuna's pretty hot,", which I likely would have if she was alone on the bed. I liked the picture as it stands because it was so cute. It was not two sexualised girls on a bed, it was two people - family members - on a bed who were cuddling.
Oh, absolutely. The two males in this picture are both Moe, though for different reasons: 
(Sorry for the small size, I wanted one that was small enough to post here directly.) |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24492 |
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 I leave it to others to look at that image, look at this quote and then decide on their own whether to burst out laughing. I think many of you here are relatively familiar with dtm42's posting style - can you imagine if he was on the other side of the equation? Can you imagine what his response would be if someone looked at that image and said, "it isn't two sexualised girls on a bed ... it's two people innocently cuddling!"
@ nbahn - you are wrong in your interpretation that dtm42 was being snarky or snide when he said he "approved" of the image. He was being totally sincere. If it is such a innocent image, who here would feel comfortable using it as a wallpaper for your monitor where other people could see it? Be honest. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13246 |
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While what they're wearing makes the intent of the image clear, if dtm42 enjoys the image for different reasons no one is in any position to tell him he's wrong for it.
If anything, I'd like to commend him for not allowing any feelings of disgust to prevent him from liking it. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24492 |
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I'm not saying he's wrong for liking it. I'm attempting to draw a line between his dot that says he is disgusted by the sexualization of young girls by making them the object of Otaku desires, all to make an easy buck, with his dot that says he approves of that image. You yourself called this an inconsistency. Which it most certainly is. If you want to take dtm42's word at face value that he perceives no sexualization going on in that image, that's your business. I was born in the night, but it wasn't last night, so I choose not to take his claim at face value. |
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4869 |
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I think getting people to agree on the definition of the term "moe" is a whole argument in and of itself. For me personally, Vaisaga's definition is vague to the point where it's utterly meaningless...if "things that are moe" and "things that I like" are interchangeable, then there's no real purpose to this discussion. I think dtm's definition from the ANN lexicon hits much closer to home: it's that sense of generating feelings of nurturing or protection, especially when characters seem specifically designed to trigger those feelings. The ANN definition notes that the concept doesn't always need to involve femininity, so it can certainly apply to male characters as well.
For my own feelings on the topic, I think it depends on what context that moe is being used (for lack of a better term). If we're talking about the sort of series that just involves "cute girls doing cute things," in the vein of Lucky Star or K-ON, I generally find those to be fairly benign, although the lack of real substance in them means that I have little to no interest in watching them, and I'm kind of left puzzled as to why they're so massively popular. It just feels like there's nothing at all to sink your teeth into, which is what I look for in most of the anime I watch. If we're talking about the more harem-ey types of shows...well, that's where I start having some major problems. A lot of those shows tend to have a bunch of often-helpless female characters all fawning over one milquetoast protagonist, which at least to my eyes feels pretty damn demeaning. It's like there's this underlying implication that the only way they can cope is by having this one particular guy in their lives, instead of showing any sort of real independence. It gets even worse when you get into the Key-type series, where there are these girls that you can't describe in any other way than broken. I mean, there's encouraging feelings of protection, and then there's just giving you the heebie-jeebies. Another related issue is that these series always same to include the same basic one-note archetypes: the shy girl with glasses, the tsundere, the girl-next-door, the little sister, etc. The characters are designed to fulfill specific fetishes, instead of seeming like any sort of actual people, and I just can't relate to them in the least. More generally, although "moe" describes a certain emotional reaction, there's also a particular art style that's sprung up in an attempt to trigger those reactions. The massive eyes, the tiny nose and mouth, the permanently-blushing cheeks, the short stature, you all know what I mean. Just speaking personally, I think that design archetype just looks...silly. Sure it's cute, but it's cute over-fetishized to the point of creepiness, to where you're noticing the overload of cuteness even more than the character beneath it. (And when they start trying to sexualize it...yeahno.) What gets me is that this design aesthetic seems to be popping up all over the place, even in shows that ostensibly don't fall into the overall "moe" category. I know there have been series in the past I might have been vaguely interested in, but the character designs turned me off almost immediately, because of the connotations I took from them. It's like most shows have to have at least one major character in that style just to snag the otaku bucks that fuel their production. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 24492 |
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I've mentioned this before, but I notice that whenever an anime actually uses the term "moe" within the show itself, the character(s) using the term are almost always referring to some facet of maid culture, like maid cafés. I've also seen the term used within a show to refer to a girl wearing cat ears. Based on that, I'm guessing that the Japanese understand the term moe as referring to a non-naturally occurring otaku trope that otaku find appealing. This means that kawaii is not automatically moe, but anything that the Japanese consider moe is almost certainly going to be considered kawaii, as well.
I suspect, and could be totally wrong, that this whole "feeling protective" thing is more of Western concept of moe than what Japanese otaku think of as moe. |
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Top Gun
Posts: 4869 |
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I think you are right that there's an insinuation that "moe" is something of a distinct concept from general "kawaii" cuteness. For instance, pretty much everyone and their mother would call Hello Kitty cute, but it doesn't really fit into that specific "moe" aesthetic. I'd also agree that the "protection" thing doesn't necessarily cover every single trait that's considered moe, although I think it does fit for a rather large category.
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Sailor S
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Yes and no. I feel the term moe has evolved over time. It started out with the "feeling protective" thing and then it eventually just became cute girls or cute guys being cute. But, I also don't feel a need to define the term. Moe is moe. You'll know it when you see it. Simple as that. |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4179 |
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Moe means never having to say you're sorry for liking something you probably shouldn't. I probably should end with a question mark there but I think I mean it honestly. Moe means zilch to me because I don't care; Hidamari Sketch? I like Miyako the most but she's the least moe one as even the teacher beats her on favorability points. On a show about supposed artists or atistic types, she seems to be the only genuine artist. She's like Hagu from Honey and Clover if Hagu was an engaging character without moe traits who was portrayed as an actual artist rather than a "trophy" one. So she's completly not Hagu. K-On. Japan has spoken and the audience's pet is Mio. Yet I liked the the show and continue to watch it for Yui, the slacker no stress musical genuis. It should be seen that the combination of all her personality traits firmly put her in top of the moe listing but following the Lucky Star effect, the end result is more simply annoying than "entertainment" cute. Which ironically makes Yui more realistic {and less realistic for the show} in my mind. Mio on the other hand is fully unrealistic and if you look at her character too closely, she has too many contradictions. The solid older sister club member is also shy and uncomfortable in group settings? The voice of reason is also the most childish when it comes to anything with a hint of a scare to it? The importance of Moe as concerning physical traits? Not important, actually and it's fairly incidental. Producers wants characters who are distinct and visually appealing which equals marketing. However, it's up to the audience to pick which ones they like based solely on appearance, usually cute and small. When taken to extremes, you get shows like A Channel where accidental viewers mistake high schoolers for grade schoolers. But having one character like that is fairly easy to execute but it can easily cross over into {outisde Japan} dangerous waters... Then there are shows and the games and manga they're based upon that are overly stylized {unlike Go Nagai or Leiji Matsumoto who use over stylized characters for their own purposes. Not cute and so they're far more acceptable for discerning tastes.} Works from the likes of like Key, Peach Pit and Bow Ditama to name more than one. So what? I don't like the works of Picasso but it doesn't mean I can't appreciate his work by looking past that. Moe as sexual fetish? Too personal to actively quantify, even moreso than just saying what is visually appealing or cute; It's better to simply say it exists and leave it at that. |
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SereneChaos
 Posts: 384 Location: Middle of Nowhere, USA |
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The first problem of any moe debate is that the word doesn't have one concrete meaning. Some think it describes anything that the viewer wants to protect, while others think it can only be applied to young (looking) girls. Some think it describes anything that is feminine and sexualized. Some use it simply as a synonym for cute. Some use it to describe anything the viewer likes, cute or otherwise. Some use it to describe anything that sexually attracts the viewer. Some use it as a description of a type of character design, and some use it as a genre. There's no one definition of the word. Every different use has different problems and connotation and these different problems and connotation over lap. There's no problem with simply being cute, but there is with sexualizing children, and so the two get lumped together as disgusting even through neither would fit some people's idea of what moe is.
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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I like moe. It's no different than "cute". For me, anyway.
Damn straight <3
Why shouldn't you like it? F*ck what other people think. If it exists, LIKE it and be proud for it. If people won't respect you for it, they're not worth caring about.
If they wanted to just show that, they should put more clothes on them! >_> That pic is definitely trying to sexualize them....because of the panties. If they were in nightgowns or pajamas, it would have been much better. Pics like that annoy me because then it gives the yuri freaks ammunition....and it's also creepy since they're supposed to be mother and daughter and doubly creepy because Yui could not be over six years old.... |
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TitanXL
 Posts: 4036 |
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Moe's an easy buzzword for people to use to bash or slam something they don't like. Or try to group stuff they don't like about anime into a nice easy category to dismiss. See: that guy who said Negima wasn't a harem series because "I actually like it, so it can't be harem" So yeah, I'm in the 'actually define moe before we argue about it because otherwise it's meaningless' camp. Though I imagine you won't be able to get a unanimous consensus from people here on what 'moe' is. I just jokingly use it as a term to replace 'cute' or 'kawaii'. Not that'd I'd defend that definition, since I'm only being half-serious when I use that word.
Damn Japan and their exploiting men like this. He's just eye-candy for the pervs. Especially that scene where he's in bed naked with his two brothers and the camera pans up them. Men are so degraded and oppressed in anime. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Actually, he is too girly for me.  Opposite of turn-on, it's definitely a turn-off. >_>
*cannot for the life of her understand why girls like boys who don't look like boys* bleh...... the curly pink hair is my biggest issue.... No. NO GUY SHOULD HAVE CURLY PINK HAIR. JUST NO. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13246 |
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Exactly. It's just a buzz word people use for stuff they like. It has no real concrete meaning. It's like the words "radical" or "hip" or "cool" or any similar word. What exactly qualify for the descriptors is not an exact science. Also people put too much weight on the "desire to protect" thing. If you like something isn't it only natural to not want to see bad things happen to it? Unless you're a sadist, of course, in which case you probably still would want to protect it from anyone other than yourself. |
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