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I don't support CN


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TheZorch



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 2
Location: Detroit, MI
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:42 am Reply with quote
As an Otaku I must say that I do not support showing Anime on Cartoon Network but I do support a 24 hour Anime network like what ADV is attempting to do.

Why do I feel this way, because I feel that it is wrong to edit or alter art in all its forms and that extends to Anime which is a art form of the Japanese culture. Imagine the outrage from fans if episodes of Star Trek were edited or bits and pieces of episodes from the classic Star Trek series were put together to create a new series. The same goes what is being done to Anime on Cartoon Network, the WB, and Fox Kids. Many of the programs being shown are not intended for children in the first place like "Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki", "Outlaw Star", and "Cowboy Bebop" to name a few. And do no mention what the WB did to Card Captor Sakura, which was thankfully pulled from the network due to fan intervention.

That is all I have to say for now.
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SuperSkylineGTR



Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 471
Location: Chicago, IL
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:01 am Reply with quote
Let me just say, that most of this communtiy is not to particularily fond of CN's edits (I speak for all of us, right?). But unfortunatley, it is a necessary evil, being that CN has to have some sort of compliance during their afternoon timeslots. If you ever read interviews with the head of Toonami, he'll tell you why he has to do what he does when it comes to editing. Some of the reason sound kinda dumb, but with sponsers and all, you got to do, what you got to do. I can say most of us are EXTREMELY grateful that there is a block dedicated to anime. I would of probably never bought Outlaw Star if I had not seen it on TV first. And I 'm sure there are people out there who either A) Finding out anime for the first time on CN, or B) established anime fans discovering new series.One thing to look forward to is that Adult Swim is getting better with editing material(this is evident by the virtually uncut Char's Counterattack).
The thing you got to remember is this: Anime still isn't in the "mainstream". That means it cannot get away with stuff that shows like 24, CSI, or Fastlane can get away with. Maybe in the near future, we'll see a change in this.
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Rygar



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Neo Chicago
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:14 am Reply with quote
Anyway, CN was first a cartoon channel, not an anime one.The only anime it aired was Speed Racer and Gatchaman,
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Hotaru's Sister



Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 102
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:50 am Reply with quote
I support CN all the way, but that doesn't mean I support editing. Cartoon Network/Adult Swim's representatives have mentioned in interviews that they don't like the editing either. The network has a standard set of rules for content that they have to abide by, regardless of when a show is run, or any warnings placed up. On top of this, advertisers have a different set of rules for them to follow, and if they don't they lose their income. One side mandates only a small amount of blood, another says no cursing etc, and AS is in the middle trying to keep both ends happy, while staying faithful to the show.

I hate editing as much as the next guy but unfortunately though, this is the society we live in. People blame cartoons for kids setting things on fire because they don't want to find the real issues. There are some people just waiting for something to protest against and as an otaku, you really don't want that kind of publicity for anime.

How certain are you that The Anime Network will remain entirely unedited? If it is a pay channel, then it is possible, that that also limits what they can show. For example, Devil Hunter Yohko could get by on a pay channel with it's nudity and violence, but in the first episode there's a "scene of adult nature" you'd more expect to see on [sk]inemax. If anime were to become mainstream then perhaps showing that unedited would be alright, but for the time being it won't happen.

Anime has faced alot of difficulty since coming to the US. Older shows like Speed Racer and Robotech/Macross were heavily altered until all that connected them to the original was the art work. Anime developed a sort of "underground" following, and at the time, the people most likely to spread the word were those seen as rebels. Gradually, anime made it's way into niche markets, like DBZ for young boys, and Sailor Moon for girls. Even those struggled to get where they are today. I used to get up at 6:30 in the morning to see them. It's only in the past few years that anime has really founds it's place in our culture, but it hasn't settled in yet.

Also, to some extent anime has faced racism of older generations. I myself heard an old woman complain anime was "devil worship those Japanese are pushing." Can you imagine what that type of person whould say if they saw some of the anime out there? Things we see no problem in can be rather shocking to the average viewer.

I certainly understand your views, but knock the editing, or the society which demands it, not the company forced to do it.

*steps off soap box*
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Cassandra



Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 1356
Location: Birdsboro, PA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:18 am Reply with quote
I dunno that Cardcaptors was pulled because of "fan intervention" as much as low ratings. (Same with Escaflowne.) Just no one watched it. (Most likely because the storylines didn't exactly make sense with the edits made.)

But I digress....IIRC, ADV was saying that they would like The Anime Network to be on cable to introduce new fans to anime. So eventually there would have to be edits. Right now, they are showing Golden Boy unedited....do you really think that would get non-anime fans interested in watching the show? I think if they ARE planning on going basic cable, they are going to have to edit some shows, but not all. Chances are, they can get away with showing unedited Nadesico and still be able to draw in new fans...but they'd probably have to edit something like Golden Boy or possibly Noir or Gasaraki. It really depends on what type of audience they are aiming for.

Ideally, I'd like to see the channel stay almost exactly as it is now...but with a few changes. It should stay with the Video on Demand option (a lot of digital cable companies have something similiar, theoretically, they should all be compatible). However, they should offer the choice whether you want to watch something subbed or dubbed. Show the first few episodes of the series as a preview-type thing. That way you will interest people into buying the DVDs. It would be just like downloading a fansub or a 'preview episode' from the net, except that you can watch it on TV instead.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 7912
Location: Anime News Network Technodrome
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:26 am Reply with quote
Yeah, Cardcaptors was yanked because the ratings were in the toilet and the fad didn't catch on. It had nothing to do with fan response. I don't understand why fans got so riled up over that; yeah, it was a hackjob, but they released subtitled DVDs into the market for you. Why bitch and complain about something that isn't even intended for you? Aside from that, Cardcaptor Sakura is a toy commercial. A good and entertaining toy commercial, but it ain't like Jackson Pollock painted the backgrounds or something. You got what you wanted, now stop complaining.

-Zac
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:24 pm Reply with quote
TheZorch wrote:

As an Otaku I must say


Cartoon Network's anime isn't meant for otaku, per se. It's as simple as that. They aren't interested in making it appealing to you.
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Hotaru's Sister



Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 102
Location: NYC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:49 pm Reply with quote
sailormech wrote:

Cartoon Network's anime isn't meant for otaku, per se. It's as simple as that. They aren't interested in making it appealing to you.


I beg to differ. I'm sure AS's primary viewers are indeed otaku, and they don't want to lose that fanbase. Because of it's nature, Adult Swim can't really be advertised on CN during the day, because it would attract younger viewers. They have to rely more on word of mouth generated by those who had anticipated AS since before it was announced; the otaku.

Toonami, on the other hand, I can agree with you on. It's geared towards kids that get home from school around that time. Even though many otaku watch it, I'm sure we're not the primary fan base so they're not as concerned with making us happy, just in the majority.
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Ferquin



Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 297
Location: Renton, WA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:50 pm Reply with quote
You guys forgot the most important point behind Cartoon Network's editing:

It's against the law if they don't.

There's a little thing called the FCC that broadcasters have to answer to if they're broadcasting anything indecent (i.e. nudity, graphic violence, etc.) If they didn't edit that stuff out of the anime, then they can't broadcast it at all. We're pretty lucky that they even put it on the air. You're getting free anime (well, free aside from the cable service).

Besides, do we really want to force this stuff on children? They're jaded enough as it is. And on top of that, most of the American broadcast audience don't give a rat's ass whether they're watching the edited version or not so you're really just preaching to the choir. If you don't like the edited version, you've got the uncut DVDs! Nobody's forcing you to watch the edited dubs on TV. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Simple as that.

Quote:
Cartoon Network's anime isn't meant for otaku, per se. It's as simple as that. They aren't interested in making it appealing to you.


Exactly.
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Ataru



Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2328
Location: Missouri (Strikeman)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:12 pm Reply with quote
If it wasn't for CN, I won't like DBZ, but it did kind of killed my feelings for Gundam. Oh well, I'll still watch it. Razz
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Shadowwave



Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:41 pm Reply with quote
These are not rules anyone has to follow. We have a right to freedom of opinion.

Networks in this country got the belief that animation is just a kids-only format beginning in the late 60s/early 70s, around the time that Peggy Charren and the Action for Children's Television group she founded became zealots for the "purity" of the medium for audiences. Basically, ACT's mission of censorship (though they wouldn't call it that themselves [duh ]) basically steamrolled the industry by calling for boycotts on network that airs programming they feel is corrupting the youth.

Rupert murdoch, michael eisner, and jamie signed this law after ACT fell apart. And it was given to FCC.

Jamie kellner put his stranglehold on turner to force toonami not to have a channel and government for the people, he still believed that anime/animation were to be treated as cartoons.

And now the distributors will change it to be ruled by the people.


Last edited by Shadowwave on Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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zaphdash



Joined: 14 Aug 2002
Posts: 620
Location: Brooklyn
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Ferquin wrote:
You guys forgot the most important point behind Cartoon Network's editing:

It's against the law if they don't.

There's a little thing called the FCC that broadcasters have to answer to if they're broadcasting anything indecent (i.e. nudity, graphic violence, etc.) If they didn't edit that stuff out of the anime, then they can't broadcast it at all. We're pretty lucky that they even put it on the air. You're getting free anime (well, free aside from the cable service).

Besides, do we really want to force this stuff on children? They're jaded enough as it is. And on top of that, most of the American broadcast audience don't give a rat's ass whether they're watching the edited version or not so you're really just preaching to the choir. If you don't like the edited version, you've got the uncut DVDs! Nobody's forcing you to watch the edited dubs on TV. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Simple as that.

Quote:
Cartoon Network's anime isn't meant for otaku, per se. It's as simple as that. They aren't interested in making it appealing to you.


Exactly.

Who says it's against the law for Cartoon Network not to edit their shows? Most of the anime they show is pretty tame and would be protected by the First Amendment. In order to be banned completely, a show must be classified as "obscene," which basically means hardcore pornography or language relating to such, with absolutely no redeeming artistic, scientific, etc. value. No anime that Cartoon Network would ever touch would fall under "obscene," and personally no anime that I'd want to see would be "obscene" either. I never really did see the appeal of hentai...but then that's something else. There are also restrictions, but no outright ban, on material classified as "indecent," which is like obscene but not quite as bad. Indecent material is banned between 6 AM and 10 PM, but can be shown outside of that timeframe. Some of the language in shows like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star might be considered "indecent," although I'm not sure about that. Otherwise, Cartoon Network doesn't really have anything that I think would fall under that either. Anyhow, both "obscene" and "indecent" apply to syndicated television. I've heard conflicting things about exactly what standards are applied to cable, from it having the same standards to it having *no* standards except those that it imposes on itself in order not to alienate viewers with overly offensive material. In any case, nothing Cartoon Network has ever shown or considered showing *must* be edited. Editing it and angering a niche group is simply preferable to showing it uncensored and pissing off all the soccer moms out there, who would then not let their children, the real target audience, watch the channel anymore. Like it or not, that's how business works: with compromises. I'm not terribly thrilled with it myself, but I recognize the fact that the willingness of business to compromise is what allowed me to see anime -- albeit, altered from its original form -- in the first place.
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Shadowwave



Joined: 10 Oct 2002
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:42 pm Reply with quote
I'm not saying i hate them. I understand the concern.
The industry has it's right to their freedom. They can dub the way the want yet still put disclaimers and stuff to let parents know what going on late at night for any kind of extreme programming. Like any market it is has good points and bad points.You have no right to treat other people badly for their opinions. Not all Anime/animation is bad for children.
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Case



Joined: 09 Apr 2002
Posts: 1016
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Hotaru's Sister wrote:

I beg to differ. I'm sure AS's primary viewers are indeed otaku, and they don't want to lose that fanbase. Because of it's nature, Adult Swim can't really be advertised on CN during the day, because it would attract younger viewers. They have to rely more on word of mouth generated by those who had anticipated AS since before it was announced; the otaku.


Your difference of opinion is based on incorrect information.

For starters, I've seen Adult Swim ads during daytime hours dozens of times. And as Cookie or Tempest would probably tell you, a large portion (if not a majority) of its viewers are "young viewers". (Which I can only assume means children and teenagers under the age of 18.)

And I think it's pretty obvious, just judging by the number of newbie otaku versus the number of non-newbies that post about its programming, that Adult Swim attracts far more people to the anime fan community than the anime fan community attracts to Adult Swim.

I recommend that you reconsider your stance.

Shadowwave wrote:

the time that Peggy Charren and the Action for Children's Television group she founded became zealots for the "purity" of the medium for audiences. Basically, ACT's mission of censorship (though they wouldn't call it that themselves [duh ]) basically steamrolled the industry by calling for boycotts on network that airs programming they feel is corrupting the youth. ACT also gave the network guidelines to set their programming by, and like the pink tutu-wearing execs they were, the networks submitted to their will. And one of the first execs to be corrupted by ACT?


I'll PayPal you one dollar if you can post just one time (100 words shall we say?) without patchwork plagiarising, straying from the topic at hand, or preaching Communist propaganda.
Rolling Eyes
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Ferquin



Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 297
Location: Renton, WA, USA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:33 pm Reply with quote
zaphdash wrote:

Who says it's against the law for Cartoon Network not to edit their shows? Most of the anime they show is pretty tame and would be protected by the First Amendment. In order to be banned completely, a show must be classified as "obscene," which basically means hardcore pornography or language relating to such, with absolutely no redeeming artistic, scientific, etc. value. No anime that Cartoon Network would ever touch would fall under "obscene," and personally no anime that I'd want to see would be "obscene" either. I never really did see the appeal of hentai...but then that's something else. There are also restrictions, but no outright ban, on material classified as "indecent," which is like obscene but not quite as bad. Indecent material is banned between 6 AM and 10 PM, but can be shown outside of that timeframe. Some of the language in shows like Cowboy Bebop and Outlaw Star might be considered "indecent," although I'm not sure about that. Otherwise, Cartoon Network doesn't really have anything that I think would fall under that either. Anyhow, both "obscene" and "indecent" apply to syndicated television. I've heard conflicting things about exactly what standards are applied to cable, from it having the same standards to it having *no* standards except those that it imposes on itself in order not to alienate viewers with overly offensive material. In any case, nothing Cartoon Network has ever shown or considered showing *must* be edited. Editing it and angering a niche group is simply preferable to showing it uncensored and pissing off all the soccer moms out there, who would then not let their children, the real target audience, watch the channel anymore. Like it or not, that's how business works: with compromises. I'm not terribly thrilled with it myself, but I recognize the fact that the willingness of business to compromise is what allowed me to see anime -- albeit, altered from its original form -- in the first place.


According to this page on the FCC website, it's against the law for Cartoon Network to broadcast the anime in their pure form, i.e. nude shots of Ryoko at the hot springs, some of the more graphically violent stuff from Gundam, and various other stuff. Yeah, it's pretty tame, but they cannot broadcast it without editing that stuff out. I never said anything about banning it off the air. They can show it, but they are definitely subject to prosecution and having their license revoked whether or not the programming be "indecent" or "obscene". It doesn't matter. It's still against the law, and the FCC regulates it. Cartoon Network has to edit the anime, even though it's considered tame by fans' standards. Yeah, it pisses us off, but the sad fact is, the soccer moms and the high moral muckymucks still have our nuts on a barrel and they wield way more power than us niche fan markets. Cartoon Network is really doing a big favor to us by exposing anime (albeit edited) to a larger market, increasing our numbers. Maybe someday, we'll have more of the power to decide what stays on the air unedited, but until then, we have to compromise with edited anime.
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