Forum - View topicWhat makes a good protagonist?
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13243 |
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If a protagonist is reluctant like Shinji, people hate him and call him a wimp.
If a protagonist is too competant like Kirito, people hate him and call him a Gary Stu. If a protagonist is too average like any given visual novel protagonist, people hate him and call him a bland self insert character. So then, what qualities should a protagonist have in order to not be hated? Sometimes it seems like even when the above types are well written they're criticized on general principle. Personally I have no issues with any of the above. I really only have problems with obnoxious protagonists that the show expects you to like (Horizon's main character, for example). |
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3705 |
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Are you asking what protagonist has universal appeal, that no one would dislike? Because I suspect the answer is "none."
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4640 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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It's not often the same "people" who complain about all three. Different pet peeves for different folks. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The answer is really simple. A good protagonist is someone you care about and whom you want to win. If you dislike the protagonist or otherwise couldn't care what happens to them, then that's a bad protagonist.
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WhiteHairGirls
 Posts: 4713 Location: New York City |
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One protagonist I really liked was Haciman from Oregairu. He was a refreshing male lead for a romcom anime. I think Dtm said it best.
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Bango
 Posts: 1122 |
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I'll complain about all 3 because all 3 need their show to support them instead of them supporting their show. For me it's a "lighter" version of 2 with a touch of 1. I don't want a self-insert blank sheet because I'm watching a show to hear their story. I don't need their help to imagine a gaggle of hot girls falling all over themselves to please me. I can imagine that on my own 
So yeah, not to the point of being unbeatable (especially if they're awesome for no reason) but a few steps down for there, with a dash of flaws that make sense for them. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13243 |
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So what would you say a character needs to have (or not have) in order for you to care about them and want them to win? |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4174 |
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Shinji, is that you? I didn't mind the "reluctance" as that would show a little sanity, I just didn't care about the whining about how his father didn't love him while the world was falling down around him, among other things. Too many other things for an otherwise apocalypse. "No, no, everyone else will be fine, that is to say dead, let's just see how it affects you, Shinji." What makes a good protagonist? Depends on the story. Let's have a decisive, go getter male lead in romantic dramadies; That'll cut the runtime to ... concluding before the first commercial break? Depending on his standards, of course. Or let's have the "Insert name here" character as the heroic le- Ok, he's Link. Or Zelda, if you want a challenge. It really all comes down to want you want from the character and how long you want him to do it. I've recently watched the Hellsing OVA episodes 5-8. Awful series, just terrible. It started with a bad protagonist {Weakness? He's like a dark god powered by a massive amount of souls; Vampire kind of lost any sort of meaning when the sun came up and no one cared though the faceless vampire put on gas masks ... to protect their face from UV rays} who's both too boring and too silly. Even with that, killing massive amounts of vampires Nazis should have been fine but that happens off screen. Impersonally. In the last episode. As an afterthought. What a waste. Characters need faults to overcome, initial dislike {like Gokudo. He's an extreme case but that just makes his character arc all the sweeter} is a much better position than "I am so awesome, just watch me work!" heroic heroes performing heroic feats of heroism {Goku}. They need good antagonists/villains and this is where Goku comes back with a vengeance; Even Commander Blue and Assassin Tao had a lot going for them and you end up rooting for Goku to punch them in the face. They need something they want or something only they can do. Just look at Yuichi from Kanon; He should be like Rin from Shuffle! {insert harem leads!} but he has something to do in the lonely mountain town, mostly figure out why that girl keeps following him around, and that girl ... and that girl, figure out why his memories are gone and help that girl and his cousin while he's at it. But Yuichi is so much more than; He's a complainer, a meddler for his own amusement and above all, a jerk {a personality quirk he uses to keep people at a distance}. Rin comes off as a reactionary plot device, Yuichi comes off as a person. They also need a good actor but is that getting too far out of range here? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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The thing is, Shinji suffered from genuine clinical depression. This is something that most people - including you - completely miss. They see a thirteen-year-old kid and think he's just going through a phase or whatever; this attitude is the wrong one to take. Because of this, they miss the signs of his deep medical depression, something that cannot be cured by shallow and misguided advice like "harden up" or "get over it". Clinical depression is a genuine mental illness that doesn't just vanish because someone wants it to. Even with modern medicine and counseling people suffer with it for years, even decades. You say you were annoyed by his whining, but the alternative for sufferers is usually to outwardly act all cheerful right up until the point where they overdose on drugs or jump off a cliff. You cannot expect someone who is deeply depressed to just magically get through it without professional help. In many ways, Shinji is the perfect lead for Neon Genesis Evangelion. It was a deconstruction of giant robot anime which sought realism, and he showed what would really happen if you put a monstrous weapon in the hands of a mentally unprepared and emotionally unequipped thirteen-year-old.
There isn't a definitive list. Sometimes it's spunk and cheerfulness. Other times it's emotional fragility. Or it could be optimism and perseverance. Or being really cool or an awesome badarse. Or being an underdog that gets kicked around. Or whatever; there are many many things, and I have not provided an exhaustive list (and it's not unusual for there to be a combination of factors too). At the end of the day, it all depends on the show in question, its tone, the quality of its writing, how its protagonist is utilised, or what its themes/aesops are. If you were to ask me about a protagonist I liked from a specific franchise then I could tell you why I wanted them to win. But there's no hard and fast rule, beyond the character earning their eventual victory. And even then I like some protagonists who totally dominate, or the rare protagonist who fails/dies and so doesn't earn anything but perhaps my respect and/or sympathy. |
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Generic #757858
 Posts: 1354 |
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Funny, I thought Shinji and Alucard were some of the better examples of their types. Shinji is a cowardly, depressed kid whose life is genuinely shitty, while Alucard's gleeful arrogance made him so entertaining to watch. Anyway, interesting topic and let's hope we can keep it civil.
I could start listing my favorite characters, but it's harder for me to say exactly what makes them good. I guess it comes down to how well they are written and how well do they fit the show and their role in it. I disagree with the notion that a good character necessarily needs to be likeable or have flaws, depth or character development. For example, I despised Light (nope, not gonna argue this), but he made a very compelling protagonist. For another, I really liked the cast of Space Dandy, even though they're mostly just cartoony, shallow goofballs going on wacky adventures. Have to say though that I can't think of any good self-insert-kuns. That has always seemed the laziest and most boring character type to me, but I guess if they had actual personality then they wouldn't be self-insert-characters anymore 
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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To me, it all boils down to the most magical word of them all!
Pro-activity. I do not care if a character shows emotions. Heck, I like it when a character cries. It shows that they're human! However, I also like a good bad-ass every once in a while. I like people who are awesome, who doesn't? However, there seems to be a lot of disproportionate hate for characters who cry a lot. At the same time, there's a lot of disproportionate love for stoic, snark-y bad-asses. I don't mind either, but at least let them be fully-developed AND let them do something! Here, let me bring up some examples from a certain infamous anime that I love ironically: The Future Diary. Minene Uryuu, I think, should have been the main character of Future Diary. Not because she was awesome (though she is), but because she did a LOT more in half a season than our actual main character did in twenty-six episodes. She has a motivation, she has a decent character arc, she has a backstory, and in my personal opinion, was the only one of the three main players in the plot that deserved her happy ending. Minene has goals, she undergoes some modicum of character development, and she's very sympathetic as the world treats her miserably. To me, she's kind of like the Leah Clearwater of the anime. It should also be no surprise that she's the most popular character in the fanbase. She deserved it. Now, let's talk about Yukiteru and why I instead of outright hating him, I am merely disappointed with him. (I've already talked about Yuno, and why she's awful. tl;dr: Yuno is a fetish target and waifu who could have been a fantastic tragic villain a la Lady Macbeth if the story wasn't too busy glorifying her behavior.) If Future Diary had been well-written (which it is not), we could have gotten a heart-wrenching tragic character arc as our hero succumbs to his inner demons and makes his way from hero to villain. Yukiteru would have been portrayed as a relatively ordinary boy, minding his own beeswax and generally living a care-free life. In comes the survival game, and he's forced to face his own primal instincts in a do-or-die tournament to become God. As the story continues, he starts to give in to the bloodlust, and the anime could have ended with Yukiteru becoming his own enemy. THAT would have been good storytelling. I did not get my cake. What I got instead was our "hero" waffling around, hiding behind his waifu, wallowing in his own misery, and being completely useless. Yukiteru has no motivation whatsoever, and therefore, there is no reasoning to explain anything he does. He obviously wants nothing to do with anything, and he continues to do nothing unless it involves the aforementioned waifu. If he doesn't care, why should I? I mean it. We are never given a legitimate reason as to why we should care or root for Yukiteru to make it to the end. That is not to say that all characters who cry or show realistic reactions can't be unlikable, either. I really like Madoka Kaname from Madoka Magica, for example, since she at least did something and had a personality. My problem just stems from if a character just sits there and does nothing, and we're supposed to laud him/her for it. There needs to be a good reason why a character can't do something, like if the inactivity is written in there to make a point. (Mamimi's character arc, for example, revolves around her refusing to move on from a non-existent relationship, and her going down a spiral of self-destruction as she attempts to use Naota to replace his brother as her emotional drug dispenser.) AAAAAAAND I'm done. Phew. That was EXHAUSTING. 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
You know a show is bad when the best character is an evil terrorist who has killed hundreds of innocent people and blew up a school. Simply being proactive isn't good enough if the actions a character undertakes makes me hate them. |
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Cam0
 Posts: 4937 |
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So what about a protagonist like Light Yagami? I didn't want him to exactly win and he spoiler[got what he deserved], but I think he was a pretty good protagonist albeit a bit extreme. It was interesting to see how far he could go and who would be the one to stop him. I guess I did sort of want him to win and lose. I might have slightly contradicted myself there... hmm...
I think an evil character can be the best character. Like Lord Montague was one of the best characters in Romeo x Juliet. Joffrey and Cersei from Game of Thrones are both very hateable characters, but I think they are great characters. Last edited by Cam0 on Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Akane the Catgirl
Posts: 1091 Location: LA, Baby! |
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Well, that's just the basic stuff. A good character should also have a well-rounded personality, the right amount of sympathetic traits, good character development along the way, and an interesting character arc in general. Another thing I really like in shows is moral ambiguity. Take characters like Lelouch from the character-based Code Geass or Homura from the story-based Puella Magi Madoka Magica, where several fan interpretations range from well-meaning extremists to complete monsters. To me, I know those two are well-written because most of those interpretations do have valid bases. They could be heroes, villains, or completely in-between, and any of those readings could be absolutely right. They're basically walking Rorschach tests to me. (My personal interpretations are that Lelouch's arc was a anti-hero's journey to villain, (which was also the interpretation that his English voice actor, Johnny Yong Bosch used), and that Homura was a tragic heroine hurtling herself down a path of well-intentioned self-destruction.) |
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Bango
Posts: 1122 |
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I can be all for an asshole main character so long as they're portrayed in a compelling way. It is fiction after all, and the actions of fictional people don't reflect my preference in real people because fiction isn't reality. I didn't see all of Future Diary though, so I can't comment there.
I could totally back a ruthless and evil main character in a survival game setting so long as they were really cool about it though. I also think a distinction needs made between "likeable" and "fitting". IMO a show can have both. So long as they're fitting I can respect their role, and I can get by a bad fit if they're awesome enough. Naturally, having both is best. |
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