Forum - View topicIt... it's not like we like tsunderes or anything!
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Raftina
 Posts: 3282 |
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What do you think of tsundere as a character device for reducing the impact of negative actions?
Specifically, harassing the object of one's affections to gain attention is a juvenile action that may reduce the seriousness of negative actions, thus allowing the author to have the protagonist behave in otherwise undesirable ways and still either retain a sympathetic character or leave room for redemption. The most obvious use of this device can be seen when the characters involved are actual children. Take Natsume Hyuga from Gakuen Alice as an example: He regularly beats up Mikan. He keeps her as a slave. And he stole her panties on two occasions. But since Mikan reacts by turning chibi, and the childishness of the situation diffuses how serious it might be. The same concept is applied to older characters at times: Tsukasa Domyoji of Boys Over Flowers is a rather horrifying domestic abuser in training who engages in bullying, blackmail, and fights. He shamelessly abuses his power and wealth. Yet with respect to Tsukushi, it is made rather obvious that his behavior is from wanting to monopolize her out of affection, so it prepares us spoiler[for the eventual reveal that he simply has trouble with personal relationships because of his upbringing.] You can see the same pattern applied elsewhere: Seiya Mizuno from Kitchen Princess, Shogo Narumi from Beauty Pop, Kei Takishima from Special A, etc. The result is generally a character that's endearing rather than off-putting, at least to me. What do you think of this device? Or using tsundere characterization as a device--other than drawing in otakus--in general? Last edited by Raftina on Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 24491 |
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I like female tsundere characters, myself. Taiga from Toradora! exemplifies the type for me. For me the appeal is in the simplistic formation of a female who can't be honest about her feelings so she hides her affection behind a facade of anger/irritation/abuse. It's cute.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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@Raftina:
I'm familiar with none of your examples, but I find it interesting that they seem to all be men. You didn't give any female examples, and from your title I was positive you'd be mentioning the female Tsunderes in various Harem shows. Not these guys who seem to all be from old-school Shoujo titles. As to your question, I do not believe that feeling bad about it automatically lessens the impact. A guy who is cruel to a girl but only to keep her around is a textbook abusive partner/boyfriend no matter what way you try and spin it, and he should be given a restraining order or even jailed. Obviously being rude to someone and then feeling bad about it can mitigate the damage and make the audience feel sorry for them. Ririchiyo from Inu X Boku SS is a great example of this and even gets labelled as a "Tsunshun" by one of the other characters. However, even if the character is genuinely remorseful whether I feel sorry for them is highly dictated by circumstance. Not by how sorry they are, but why the character is how they are, the extent at which they are nasty to others (obviously raping someone is a lot more serious than just insulting them), and whether they can change their ways. In Ririchiyo's case she only acts abrasive because spoiler[she had a crappy friendless childhood, and whenever she says something nasty she is almost traumatised by it. Indeed, she wants to change but lacks the emotional tools to do so, but when Soushi comes along he understands her and helps her to get along better with the other characters and with people in general.] So yeah, being remorseful only goes so far, there are other factors that are just as important if not more so. |
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13246 |
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I imagine that was intentional. When most people hear "tsundere" they automatically think of females. Men can be tsundere too. Though male and female tsunderes certainly aren't treated equal. Men who treat women poorly are seen as horrible monsters and women who treat men poorly are considered cute. That's not always the case, but it's pretty rare. From what I recall no one complained about Yuuta bonking Rika on the head occasionally. I think the best was in Muv Luv (the VN), where Takeru and Sumika both hit each other but it was well established that that was just their thing and there was no ill intent behind it. I'm okay with tsunderes, but it all depends on the intensity. Ririchiyo is an example of a good tsundere. While she has the "can't be honest" problem, she only verbally lashes people and doesn't do it physically. Which leads me to the most horrible and destable of all tsunderes (imo): Louise from Zero no Tsukaima. Boy did I want to throttle that bitch. It's not enough that she treats Saito as her dog, SHE ACTUALLY WHIPS HIM. My God maybe it was a bit amusing at first, and she did improve by the end of the first season... But in the second she's right back at it. It's not enough for her that Saito is constantly declaring his love for her, she'll still beat him within an inch of his life if he so much as looks at another girl. It's to the point where I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with Saito. There are so many nice girls after him, but he picks the one who makes his life a living hell? WTF? So yeah, I draw the line at such intense physical abuse. If it's the occasional reactionary slap, I don't mind. |
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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I agree with dtm that it really depends on the circumstances. I didn't get through much of Boys Over Flowers because Tsukasa creeped me out, but the other guys you mention seem fine to me. They're a little jerkoff-ish, but not enough to be abusive, and most of them show signs of maturing as the story goes on. All Narumi ever does is throw random insults at Kiri, probably knowing full well (or at least believing) that they won't hurt her self esteem too much. Characters who are just kind of grumpy in general are fine, if you ask me. Tomoe from Kamisama Kiss is a grump and doesn't express his feelings well, but it's clear he cares about Nanami and would never knowingly do anything to hurt her, aside from some harmless ribbing. Natsume does some pretty mean things to Mikan, but he's ten, so I can forgive him a little bit because ten-year-old boys tend to do some pretty stupid crap to girls they like. It makes even more sense because of Natsume's tragic circumstances.
I think "tsundere" actions can be a sign that a character is immature and still has some serious growing up to do. This is certainly true in the above examples. In this way, it can be a useful character device to make the character's flaws and insecurities more obvious. My favorite example is probably Kyo Sohma from Fruits Basket, who insults and yells at Tohru upon first meeting her, then fails to apologize later because Yuki makes him mad in the middle of his apology. (He later goes to walk her home from work and apologizes there...grudgingly.) His exaggerated reactions are mostly played for comedy in the beginning and are meant to be cute. But while his shyness is certainly meant to endear him to the readers, it also demonstrates his childishness. As the series goes on, he gradually becomes less guarded and slower to anger and starts opening up more to those around him. The tsundere antics are all but gone by the end of the series. If the character is tsundere solely so the author can get away with a cruel love interest, then that's a problem. This is how I feel about most "bastard boyfriend" characters, like Kyou (hey, same name) from Black Bird. "It's okay that he keeps sexually harassing her because he sometimes feels bad about it maybe!" To me, that just looks like the honeymoon phase of the abuse cycle. In general, any sort of physical or sexual abuse is a big no-no for me (that goes equally for male and female tsunderes). Even the insults can't be too bad, and I generally expect them to stop after the tsundere enters an actual relationship with their love interest. As I said, I consider tsundere traits to be a sign of immaturity, so IMO someone who still has those traits is not fantastic dating material. They have to grow up a little first. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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@Vaisaga:
Ugh, Louise is the reason I hate The Familiar of Zero . . . and I haven't even watched the show. That's how notoriously, infamously bad she is. You're right in that Ririchiyo is an example of a 'good' Tsundere. But I don't like most other Tsunderes, even the many of the supposed good ones (though I do like Ririchiyo). For example, any girl that punches a guy because she walked in on him (as opposed to the other way around) is scum. In fact, most of the time that a girl hits or otherwise punishes a guy in such "Comedies" I think is unjustified. Of course there are always shows like Heaven's Lost Property and Urusei Yatsura but I'm speaking generally here. Openly and unrepentantly lecherous male leads deserve every punch they receive, but most male leads do not deserve the abuse they suffer. Also, every time Yuuta bopped Rika on the head it was clear it wasn't a strike intended to actually hurt her. The way he did it reminded me of an adult lightly chastening their child after the latter did something stupid. So it wasn't abuse or anything like that. Again, context is important. If he'd hit so hard that she had a headache for the rest of the day then that would have been bad, but that was not the case. It was actually refreshing to see a male lightly chastise the female instead of the other way around. There's no way I'm going to feel sympathy for a guy who threatens to rape the lead girl every episode, or the female who treats her love interest as nothing more than a punching bag. I don't care how much they regret it afterwards, an abusive relationship is not something I want to cheer. Sure, they can be worth watching if done properly, if the story does not try and justify the guy's actions and refuses to pretend that abusing others is "love". But you know, such works are the decided minority, since Japanese audiences don't want to be told that the male lead or female love interest is actually an abusive prick/b*tch. So to recap, guys who actually hurt females psychologically and/or physically are scum, but girls who do the same are also scum, even if it supposedly is played for laughs. I get that Japanese audiences want extremes; they either want a docile girl who will suffer any abuse and still be with the audience-insert guy, or they want a complete sadistic b*tch who should moonlight as a dominatrix. But such extreme personality types are all too often really bad done and not believable, and when the show tries to justify them it comes off as really fake. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15594 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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In general I like tsundere, although I do tend to get frustrated with them when they become abbusive, either physically or mentally. Although strangely I forgive something like Royouko Ookami is a type I can forgive due to he tsun mostly being a fear of getting close to people, and the guy is trying to pursue. But if deredere is being used to cover a controling behavior (like locking them in a cage), well that is a little sick.
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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I watched one season. It's not bad...except for her. |
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rheiders
Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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What, you don't think this is romantic? 
Hamster bedding for girlfriend, so sweet and thoughtful <3 |
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Divineking
 Posts: 1301 |
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When talking about tsundere's I think it's actually best to refer to TV Tropes article on the subject which list two types: Type A who tend to be 95% tsun, 5% dere and Type B who are about 50/50.
I mostly despise Type A's with a passion. They act like total pricks almost every second their on the screen and it astounds me that some of the characters are able to put up with their nonsense. What makes it worse is that for some reason this kind of tsundere is almost always the main heroine for some bizzare reason. Louise from Familar of Zero who's already been mentioned and Aria from Aria the Scarlet Ammo are two of the worst examples to the point where I have to keep myself from cringing whenever I hear Rie Kugimiya voicing a high pitched character because it reminds me of how awful those characters were. Type B's on the other hand are pretty tolerable most of the time, and they usually tend to be far more amusing and interesting as characters. Sadly this kind of tsundere is almost always a side character which is a shame because their usually far more likeable. Hinagiku from Hayate the Combat Butler is the best example I can think of for this type though Nagi is actually pretty amusing for a type A(at least I think she qualifies as a type A). Last edited by Divineking on Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:44 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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Bah, I sure as hell ain't one of these people! I LOVE tsundere!! But look, there is a big difference between "tsundere" and "cruel, abusive person". A lot of authors don't seem to get this. :/ But you can't have a tsundere without "dere" and when authors don't give enough "dere" and WAY too much "tsun", it doesn't work.
No, he actually doesn't "regularly beat her up." I mean, if he did, I wouldn't ship them. >_> But he did what he did at the beginning of the series because he thought she was his enemy and he was supposed to do it. He didn't steal her panties to be a perverted jerk; he did it to show her not to mess with him. It was only until Mikan began to see a kinder side of Natsume does she start to positively interact with him.
Seiya=just a jerk. DAICHI was the true tsundere of that manga. And definitely the kind I prefer. 
Don't talk shit about Aria! D:< Aria was perfectly fine by the second half of episode 2!
lmao. I don't know about you, but I'll take a tsundere boyfriend over a YANDERE one ANY DAY. ANYYYY DAY. Yandere are effing CREEPY. I really despise most of them. The tsundere will blush and look away if you so much as grab his hand. However the yandere will be the one staring at you through your window and waiting for you to go to bed so he can rape you in your sleep. Which character sounds more like dating material? |
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