Forum - View topicNEWS: Embracing Love's Nitta Acknowledges Tracing Photo
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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In case you didn't realize, ads have used just about every image under the sun. If a manga-ka draws a single bottle of liquor standing alone in a frame is s/he plagerizing DOZENS of alcoholic beverage ads I've seen? When we see a black page in manga with only type OH MY GOD the manga-ka has stolen from the "Got Milk" ads (& countless, COUNTLESS others). A family in a car-seen it. A family at the beach-seen it. A family in a retaurant-seen it & the FAR more common couple in a restaurant. Advertisers "borrow" ideas from one another all the time. I've seen ads made to cash in no more than a few pop trends. Jokes about commercials wound up in popular entertainment. I still have fond memories of the Sonny & Cher skit done by filksonging commercials like "You deserve a break today. So get up & get away to McDougals!" Which might be her ignorance of the law. I sure don't think about fricken commercials. It's not like stealing from another person in one's own line of work. That I can see as nothing other than plagiarism. Buy some sports illustrated or modern home & garden, etc for inspiration. If one were an artist commissioned to illustrate a book set in England & one has never been to England, one would look at travel books & postcards to get an idea of how the land looks. If one is smart, one makes some changes. but really & truely, do you know if that green field full of sheep is an original background or one the artist saw somewhere else? Do people outside of Japan pay as much attention to this stuff because I'm sure it's not a Japanese flaw to copy images like this? I really don't recall stuff like this about Spiderman or Batman artists.
Is that for ad layouts or the clothing itself? I know THAT is their bread & butter & of course they care boodles about it, but what is a Paris fashion show but a bunch of starved chicks looking cold & aloof walking up & down the runway? Yeah, I understand the various designers may use themes or motifs & I'm sure Designer A is furious if Designer F uses the same post apocalyptic motif he did this year & suspect espionage, but it is the clothes designs that matter Does Designer A take Designer B to court over ad layout. Maybe their ad people would, though I'd think it's be horribly embarrassing to be caught blatantly stealing ad ideas. Fashion is such a fast fade-away anyway. I love Jack in the Box. I wish they'd sell their ads on a dvd because they are cute. I can't see those ads working for Ronald McDonald, but I wouldn't think twice if McDonald's tried to update Ronald's image, give him a wife & kid, make him the top exec of the company & pitch this or that new food item. |
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The Xenos
 Posts: 1519 Location: Boston |
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It's interesting to see this happen in Japan and for a publisher to catch it. Looking at some of those in the link where other examples are pointed out, they do seem cheap. Some of them I could chalk up to generic romantic poses, but others are blatantly copied. That fur coat one is especially bad. The Chanel necklace one looks cut and pasted.
Being a bit of a photobug as well as a fan of cartooning and comic art, I can't stand when the photographer's work is considered somehow less. That somehow the cartoonist can copy the photograph of someone else and this is ethical? I don't buy it. Yes, the implications of taking male and female photos used for shonen ai artwork is interesting. (Actually, one of them was two females who the artist turned male. Though that one didn't seem as direct a knockoff.) Yet is that some reasoning to take a photographer's artwork without credit? These seem to be not singular works with that purpose. The artist seems to just be swiping cool images they like and cool fashions not of their own design. I have heard imitation and copyright is thought of a bit differently in Japan. Certainly I've seen first hand entire stores dedicated to mostly.. um.. adult version of copy written characters done by amateur or other artists. Wired's recent manga issue had a fascinating bit about this. Though this is certainly a different case than those.. parody books. |
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Toshirodragon
 Posts: 166 |
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Heh not anymore. Either they dropped her or she bowed out, but we got the official "Yaoi-Con regrets to announce that this year's Guest of Honor Nitta Youka will not be able to attend the convention. We wish her well and hope that she will be able to attend a future Yaoi-Con." in the mail today. Sayonara Sad Sensei! |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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It's sort of the dif between the trash tv & quality PBS stuff or an Art Film vs Ironman. Some photography IS considered art. Hell, commercials can be fun & entertaining, but not a lot of people I know consider them to be "art". Same goes for a print ad. Some can be beautiful or provacative, or entertaining, but their PRIMARY purpose is pitching something--a product, an idea. As such, they are usually considered more along the lines of a toilet or a drinking fountain-functional items most of us see & dismiss. Like I said, I love the Jack-in-the-Box commercials. Those cows (cheese?) are so much fun. I love the California commercial with Arnold. Mom's story when my sis was a toddler was she had a walker & whereever she was in the house she'd hear a commercial come on & she'd zip into where the tv was, scarring up the front of the set. (early 1960's so it was one of those big wood box types). Whatever it was, they caught her attention over whatever show was on. But really, many people put commercials/advertising in the same place as the stuff one wipes off one's shoe. And I'm still trying to remember when I've seen an American comic book writer get nailed for this. I can see the writer of Spiderman would be crucified if he blatantly stole panels from Batman, but if Spidey crawled across a Calvin Klein ad, would anyone care? |
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Ambrogino
 Posts: 57 Location: York, England |
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It's not particuarly unknown in American comics. Rob Liefield gets pulled up on it all the time (though to be fair, when he steals someone elses work it looks better than his own) and Greg Land's quite renowned for tracing porn stars as his superhero art. American comic book writers and artists tend to be two different people however, so if a writer specifies a particular layout or image in the script that doesn't have much bearing on whether or not the artists plagarises.
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rymara
Posts: 3 |
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After reading through these posts I realize a couple of things. Some of you either need a valium or to go back and read the actual facts,not only whats been written here but Nittas own words and actions. Then you need to take a good look at yourselves, "Those without sin", sound familiar? I did this before attempting a judgment, which in truth I have no right to judge this girl as I'm not her. The only person with the right to judge this artist is herself.
But it's obvious even to the most blind of people looking at her reaction to finding out, that she honestly did not know that tracing was illegal. My daughter designs and sells tattoo designs, yes I know it's not on the same scale as mangas, but when she read this she told me that she often copies and gets ideas from media sources, she's even used Mickey Mouse and she was under the impression that as long as she wasn't using thier logo or name that it wasn't illegal. So I can full well believe that this girl did not know. As my daughter pointed out, wouldn't this artists managers and publishers have had a larger responsibilty in this, it is part of thier job. Then you have to take into account Nittas culture, she's been raised in,lived and breathed a whole diiferant set of values then the average person whos posted here. If your American you have less right then anyone to judge, letting a president get away with having an affair in the white house with a pat on the back and a "define sex" gives you less moral ground to stand on then anyone. From what I saw after getting all the facts including her side of things...she's simply a young girl with a lot of talent who made a mistake and has already punished herself for her own naivity and quite frankly I think it's an embarrasment to watch some people hop onto a self imposed pedistal and start preaching, especially when we can guess which of you are doing it based more on the fact that you don't like yaoi then the facts. Do us all a favor and at least get off the bandwagon long enough to get the facts. Heres what most of you won't see...the apology the artist posted herself.
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xanderion
Posts: 9 |
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I am a BL fan. Actually, it is my fave genre. And 2 of her series are on my Top 10. But problem with your reasoning is that she's a professional mangaka for over 15 years. An acclaimed and widely praised artist. And sorry to desillusion you, but her apologies are basic standards for the circumstance. Even her publisher and the BLCD production which was to release a CD based on her manga have to officially apologize to the public. It's just the standard attitude of contrition in Japanese society. I'm sure she's really sorry now, but the fact that she apologizes is just what is expected of her. Now, we only have to wait for the real sanction and as a fan, pray that she won't be sued. And just if you're wondering, I'm French. |
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bradc
 Posts: 152 |
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Wow they dropped her like a bomb. Looks like this is going have quite a big effect on her and future work; if she ever gets out this one. Big name or not, well known or not. Now matter how you look at it; plagiarism is still plagiarism... |
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rymara
Posts: 3 |
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I apologize Xanderion if you felt I was attacking you personally, actually I thought your posts were well thought out and rational. I was addressing the posts that spewed accusations and a "burn her at the stake" mentality with an obvious lack of knowledge, this always annoys me no matter what the topic is. I'm American I know all about the standard apology issued, especially by our politicians
 but hers was not the "standard" at least by American standards. Like my multiple use of the word standard? Just curious which 2 made your top 10 list?
In my personal opinion after viewing the photos, a couple of them were MUCH too obvious complete copies of ads, so obvious infact that one would think the person doing it had no idea it was illegal, there was no attempt to hide it or even obscure it, see my point? But also some of the so called stolen pics were reaching a bit I thought. Some of them were simple poses or background things like flowers,seen in tons of mangas of all genres. And some such as textures and patterns struck me as her attempt to bring "life" into the pictures. So never copy a flannel pattern from a Sears catalog folks. 
Don't misunderstand me, I have no dilusion about wether or not Nitta took some ideas from ads, artist get ideas from other forms all the time. However I don't believe the artist intentionally sought to "steal". And the ideas for poses or clothing may have been copied but the artwork was still hers. And none of it was used in a manner that would bring about a negative image of the ads in question, hell how many people even recognized them before this. Her artwork was so well done that if anything the fact that it was mostly fashion and fashion product ads got them some free advertizment and a sales boost in a genre that is dominated by females by them subconsiously recognizing the ad. Not excusing it just stating the truth. It is quite possible for a person to do something for 15 years and pay no attention to the legistics around it, especially if they have people around them whos job it is to do that for them. Is that right? No it's not but it is possible. This is how people end up getting ripped off by thier accountants 
LOL CCSyueh...spidey in your underwear now theres something to mull over 
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xanderion
Posts: 9 |
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No problem. Just wasn't sure if my opinion would have been viewed as an extreme one, as I've been on other discussions where I was more annoyed by the blind defender fans.
I don't want to blame her more as at this point, she's miserable enough. What I can't stand is that to defend her, many fans say it's okay to copy a photo, as long as it's not another mangaka — meaning for them the photo is not art and they ditch the artistical value and all the work behind the advertisement. Just because I'm a fan of the artist doesn't allow me to claim an ad photo can't compare with her illustration. To the photographer fans or maybe to the designer fans, this photo is their reference and Nitta's art might be crap in their eyes. The 2 have the same artistical value to me, but there's a said original one, and the other is a copy. So in the end, the one being a copy devalues its awesomeness. I try looking at the 2 parts and not overreacting, but I just can't help when defending Youka Nitta, people seems to think it's natural to belittle the ad agencies work. Now about the real infringement of copyright, I think (so far) only 2 or 3 of the mangaka's illustrations are blatant copies. Others are basically referencing, though a few are borderline cases, but still can pass as referencing. But it takes only 1 picture, even if it's not the story or the whole manga's art, to suspend an artist career if this one picture is used against said artist and the publisher in a lawsuit. What troubles me is that even if nearly all the questioned pictures are just referencing, it's like observing through the years how bolder Nitta became till she crosses the line. This can be used against her in a trial. And for the publisher not paying enough attention on her work, it's true it's part of his responsibility. I would compare this with a writer's career. When you submit your first novel, the publisher will scrutinize your work before publishing you. For your second novel, they would still keep an eye, but trust you enough already. And through the years, while your reputation is building, they have total faith in your work and assume as a professional and respected writer, you know what can be written and what cannot. So if suddenly, after all these years, one points out your latest book is a plagiarism, it comes as a shock to everyone and this'll make the publisher panick and go back through your previous works to see if there's also some frauds, should they be sued later since all the attention is now on this writer's whole works. For Youka Nitta, I knew she uses references. I just assumed she was only referencing. And when tracing, I just assumed she was tracing from her own private stock photos or that she paid a photographer and models or that she paid royalty fees to use the pictures. It never crossed my mind she would directly trace overall a copyrighted material. After all, she's the professional artist with many years of experience, so it never crossed my mind to doubt her. After so much years of trust, I'm guessing her publisher just assumed the same. It's also the pub's fault for being too trusting. |
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rymara
Posts: 3 |
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Well there you go, 2 schools of thought but basically the same.
One person thinking maybe Nittas publisher trusted her to know and stopped doing thier job and the other saying Nitta did it without a doubt but may not have known the full extend of the issue because the publisher wasn't doing thier job. Either way...someone wasn't doing thier job 
One person sees the 2 or 3 blatant copies as Nitta getting bolder the other person sees it as Nitta again not realizing the full extent of what she was doing. 15 years though, very odd no one noticed it until now. I went back and took another look at the photos, no matter how I tried I could only view the ads as run of the mill seen it millions of times commercials instead of art, but each persons concept of art is differant. Honestly if it weren't for this incident those ads would have been something I flipped past in a magazine to get to the articles <shrug> Not blowing off the fact that she traced/used as referance but at the very least they made some money off her and after all isn't that what ads/commercials are designed for. |
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xanderion
Posts: 9 |
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At last, one good news. It seems Diesel takes it well as you can read in this post at their 55DSL blog. A bit of relief for us. But there are still the other brands. Pray they will react as favorably as Diesel.
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nzinga
Posts: 2 |
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I wonder how many people took a look at that Haru series because of all the recent stir. I did, and to my surprise it was really good.
The artwork is terrific, and on a more consistent basis than a lot of manga. More importantly, the story and the writing are good. It's a shame that writing won't continue because of a problem with the artwork. I also find it ironic that Nitta has become the center of a media scandal when dealing with media sensationalism was such a prominent part of the stories she told. Most of the time her protagonists managed to forge on in the face of adversity (including scandals caused by their own mistakes) - I hope something along those lines will happen for Nitta as well. As one of her main characters said, you can't undo the mistakes, but they become part of your experience and growth. As for Nitta's particular scandal, artists do use photo references and commercial artists with demanding deadlines have been tracing since light boards were invented. I once visited the Marvel comics bullpen, and discussed this practice with one of the artists in regard to drawing cityscapes. Matte painting for film backgrounds often starts with found photos. When a work is popular, the audience will demand more as quickly as possible...and their attention will wander to something else if production is too slow. For manga, especially, I doubt the revenue model would support adding the number of artists that would be necessary to prevent shortcuts. I do understand the longstanding complaint of photographers that the way they compose their pictures is under-appreciated as art, though it's a shame a hard-working mangaka has been used to focus attention on this problem. I wonder if anyone here is also familiar with the equally longstanding complaint of architects that photographers benefit from their work without acknowledgment or payment of royalties? Is the design of the building being used as part of the photographic composition any less art? Frankly, I find Diesel's gracious acceptance of Nitta's apology as a tacit acknowledgment that her practice is fairly common. Perhaps they've considered what scandals might arise if people started over-analyzing their own artistic works? The line between verisimilitude and homage is indeed very gray. Whether what Nitta did was ethical or not, she has been used to highlight the photographers' agenda. And a hefty part of that price is being paid by the fans of Nitta's works who will be deprived of a story that many obviously love. What's particularly painful in this case is the nature of Nitta's work almost calls for blending it with the contemporary world of advertising, tabloids, etc. The quoting added to the manga's artistic statement. I wish I had seen this thread earlier because I have a solution to propose. The artists should just accept everyone is inspired by everyone else and stop worrying about how far their work has influenced or even been incorporated into other media. The paranoi and the lawsuit potential for that sort of attitude is limitless. Instead, it should become regular practice to cite any references "quoted". This can even be done after the fact. For instance, in Nitta's case, the past issues of Haru can be republished with footnotes where there is significant quoting from a photo. This would give the photographer more publicity which could benefit their future work. Perhaps the photography field would in turn become more habituated to citing the work of architects. 
In order for this citation system to work, the entire art world needs to call a ceasefire. They need to admit the extent everyone draws from everyone else and stop threatening each other and blowing off steam with witch hunts. If citation becomes the norm, and no one breaks that norm by trying to extract further royalties on top of the free publicity they already get, then everyone should be happy. |
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