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REVIEW: Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash


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Amuris



Joined: 05 Apr 2016
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:05 pm Reply with quote
I was kinda disappointed that the reviewer still doesn't understand the difference between the "trapped in a game world" and "transfer" genres. Yeah, transfer tends to have game mechanics, but is not required that it does nor is its approach to it and meaning the same.

In "trapped in a game world" stories (SAO, .Hack, that one really funny light novel were he's caught in the worlds most glichy game) have the world the characters are in being an actual game. Since they are interacting in a world built from the ground up through code, that means that for all intents and purposes, the game system = reality. Furthermore, their growth and progress is restricted to how well they can manipulate that system.

In "transfer" stories (grimgar, konosuba, and the one that makes people the most confused about this, Log Horizon) have the world the characters are interacting in be an actual fantasy world that just happens to have a game system overlined on top of it. The game system does not equal reality for them and most good transfer stories with game mechanics explore what this means for them.

Log Horizon started dealing with the fact that the world is inhabited by actual people and not just npcs and players early on. As the story progressed,spoiler[ the rules of the game system started break and alter, allowing them to learn new skills based on their personal experiences (yeah, their first and second jobs as well) and having flavor text become real, changing the nature of equipment and whatnot to something other than "how high their stats are".]

It even comes up in Konosuba (in a part they cut out of the anime). Those guys Kazuma met outside the succubus brothel were part of a party he did a member swap with, joining them for a quest. It was there that he showed off that he can create new effects or the same effects of intermediate magic by manipulating basic magic. He isn't strictly restricted to doing only what is defined in the game system and can use the abilities granted by a skill without having said skill.

Then, it's also the basis for the character development for the heroes in the Rising of the Shield Hero in all kinds of ways. Basically, in transfer stories, there's a gap between the game system and reality and many of them base their story on that gap.

Also, why do some of the reviews think Re:zero is a game world? It has no game mechanics! They even compared it to all you need is kill, so they should get that that doesn't make it a game.
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danpmss



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 775
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:59 pm Reply with quote
#854688 wrote:
I was kinda disappointed that the reviewer still doesn't understand the difference between the "trapped in a game world" and "transfer" genres. Yeah, transfer tends to have game mechanics, but is not required that it does nor is its approach to it and meaning the same.

In "trapped in a game world" stories (SAO, .Hack, that one really funny light novel were he's caught in the worlds most glichy game) have the world the characters are in being an actual game. Since they are interacting in a world built from the ground up through code, that means that for all intents and purposes, the game system = reality. Furthermore, their growth and progress is restricted to how well they can manipulate that system.

In "transfer" stories (grimgar, konosuba, and the one that makes people the most confused about this, Log Horizon) have the world the characters are interacting in be an actual fantasy world that just happens to have a game system overlined on top of it. The game system does not equal reality for them and most good transfer stories with game mechanics explore what this means for them.

Log Horizon started dealing with the fact that the world is inhabited by actual people and not just npcs and players early on. As the story progressed,spoiler[ the rules of the game system started break and alter, allowing them to learn new skills based on their personal experiences (yeah, their first and second jobs as well) and having flavor text become real, changing the nature of equipment and whatnot to something other than "how high their stats are".]

It even comes up in Konosuba (in a part they cut out of the anime). Those guys Kazuma met outside the succubus brothel were part of a party he did a member swap with, joining them for a quest. It was there that he showed off that he can create new effects or the same effects of intermediate magic by manipulating basic magic. He isn't strictly restricted to doing only what is defined in the game system and can use the abilities granted by a skill without having said skill.

Then, it's also the basis for the character development for the heroes in the Rising of the Shield Hero in all kinds of ways. Basically, in transfer stories, there's a gap between the game system and reality and many of them base their story on that gap.

Also, why do some of the reviews think Re:zero is a game world? It has no game mechanics! They even compared it to all you need is kill, so they should get that that doesn't make it a game.


I guess Overlord is a transfer game example then.
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Amuris



Joined: 05 Apr 2016
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:40 pm Reply with quote
there's also a lot of transfer stories where they go to another world as their game character. Also ones where they avoid talking about the gap between the game system and reality. These are mostly to keep the MC op or to come up with a way to explain why the random modern guy is suddenly so much better than the natives at things they never did before.

Overlord is still a transfer story. The world he's in is still a real world. Think of it this way, if Log Horizon is a transfer story and not a trapped in a game story, how is Overlord different?
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3442
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:50 pm Reply with quote
Well it's pretty much all the same things, there's already not much difference between "trap in mmo", "transfer" and even "trap in fantasy world", the difference come down to semantic, like tomatoes being technically a fruit but most people consider it a vegetable, it just doesn't matter in the end. Beside at this point we don't actually know which one it is, it could be any of these.
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Amuris



Joined: 05 Apr 2016
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:15 pm Reply with quote
I just explained that it's not semantics though.... Crying or Very sad

The meaning and what happens in the story is different for the two genres. In a transfer story, if there is game mechanics, they are guidelines more than law. Characters can and often do break from them. There are no NPCs or anything, just people. It's a fantasy story that might have game attributes

Also, for grimgar spoiler[It's not a game world. They're in another world and will actually start moving to other worlds as well. More so, they don't have actual restrictions on things like what they can learn or their guild. The only reason they can't do things like learn eachother's techniques is because teaching eachother is against the guild rules.They can try it themselves, and do. It's just that doing it successfully is difficult and each technique is a long list of different variations that's drilled into them by their instructors.] It also doesn't help that they do things like make it look like War Cry has a cooldown in the anime when it was actually just that this throat was still ragged from the last scream.
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TD912



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:22 pm Reply with quote
I really liked the art style and direction of this show. After reading this I looked up the Ryosuke Nakamura's previous works, and sure enough, he was also the director of Aiura. I remembered watching it back in ~2013.

Aiura is one of those short 5-min slice of life shows with "cute girls doing cute things", but if you enjoyed the art direction in Grimgar, you'll probably also enjoy taking a look at the art and animation in Aiura.

It seems he's a fan of Andy Warhol and Steve Jobs, judging from the opening animation.
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Panoptican



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 160
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:06 pm Reply with quote
DerekL1963 wrote:

And on top of that, if you gathered all the shots of Yume together (which comprises the bulk of the fanservice), you'd get maybe a minute, minute and a half of total footage across twelve episodes. Most of the rest is maybe a minute, tops, of Shihoru in a single episode. (I'm counting only the purely gratuitous here, but the minute or two of bathhouse scenes in the "underwear" episode are up for grabs, to me they are plot related.) Yet every single reviewer I've read has seen fit to bring up fanservice as if it's some huge part of the series.

If there's a place where there is inappropriate fanservice, it's in the OP... and even then, it's only a few seconds per episode.

I think the reviewers need to get a grip.


Does something have to reach a certain percentage threshold or minute count before it's okay to bring up in a review? No matter how short the scenes are, if they impacted Nick's enjoyment then I think they should be mentioned. I have a feeling if Nick mentioned something positive that was rarely shown people wouldn't have an issue.
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B-K201



Joined: 27 Aug 2015
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:25 pm Reply with quote
Lol I think this is what Shinning Hearts was trying to go for but ultimately failed!
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ScruffyKiwi



Joined: 25 Oct 2010
Posts: 697
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:28 pm Reply with quote
HaruhiToy wrote:
Nick's review wrote:
There's fortunately some gender parity here, but on both sides, the fanservice works somewhat at cross-purposes with the rest of the show, making it just a little harder to take the characters seriously.

I don't know why this seems to be an issue for the two ANN reviewers that have written about this. Other than the opening credits, most of the view-for-males focuses on Yume and pretty much ignores Shihoru and Mary. Her modesty is never compromised and we never, ever get a "bouncing boob" shot. A bath shot or two but that's it.

I never found the fanservice around Yume particularly annoying. Sure the camera tended to linger a bit long on her butt and there was sideboobs on occasion but nothing particularly bad. HOWEVER I found the fanservice around Barbara (Thieves guild rep) just unnecessary. She was the "bouncing boob with improbable clothing" girl for the show and ruined every scene she was in!

Overall though I really enjoyed Grimgar and loved the slow moving plot.
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Covnam



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3780
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:53 pm Reply with quote
Enjoyed reading the review (though I would have prefered if the death spoiler was left out and could have been avoided, though I understand that may not have been possible).

I'll have to check this out in the future =)

@#854688 Unless I missed something, I'm not sure how Konosuba fits your definition of "transfer" game genre. The world he goes to isn't based on a game. Sure, it uses game like mechanics (just like Is It Wrong To Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon) to explain it's systems, but I don't recall it being based on a game the protagonist is familiar with. It's really no different than the classic genre staple of protagonist being transferred to another world (like Escaflowne or El Hazard for example). The only difference being in this specific case though, is that the protagonist is aware of what's coming (though not with much warning) instead of being suddenly dropped on a new world.

Along those lines, the "transfer" genre you mention is basically the same thing, except that instead of an unfamiliar world, the protagonist is familiar with their setting and how the world works. Along with some elements of the game potentially existing as well. I guess it could be considered a sub-genre?

I agree that "being trapped in a game" is different though, since as you implied, the protagonist is clearly tied to the real world, rather than being physically sent somewhere.
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2266
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:02 pm Reply with quote
ScruffyKiwi wrote:

I never found the fanservice around Yume particularly annoying. Sure the camera tended to linger a bit long on her butt and there was sideboobs on occasion but nothing particularly bad. HOWEVER I found the fanservice around Barbara (Thieves guild rep) just unnecessary. She was the "bouncing boob with improbable clothing" girl for the show and ruined every scene she was in!


Barbara aside (because she was just ridiculous), I just felt like the fanservicey bits tended to clash with and undermine the intentionally serious tone the show was going for. The worst one I can think of is when Yume and Haruhiro are grieving together, and Shihoru does her "sorry for interrupting" shtick--which isn't really fanservice, I guess, but I think it gives you an idea of why a lot of the butt shots tended to stand out to me, in the worst way possible. Like, wow, this is one series that just doesn't seem to know how to do comedy/fanservice correctly, and it often happens at the worst moments--it was like watching the worst parts of Plastic Memories all over again. I feel like the show as a whole would be better off without moments like those. :/
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bleachigo66



Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 246
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:26 pm Reply with quote
This show is my favorite of the year so far. The Asthetic, mood and music all appealed to me greatly. While I could do without the fanservice and a lot of Ranta's shenanigans, nothing that I didn't care for in any way ruined it for me.

I truly hope we get another season at least, and even a release of the novels. (I can dream, right?) At the very least, I can't wait to soak in the visuals on Blu-ray.
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Amuris



Joined: 05 Apr 2016
Posts: 69
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:28 pm Reply with quote
Covnam wrote:

@#854688 Unless I missed something, I'm not sure how Konosuba fits your definition of "transfer" game genre. The world he goes to isn't based on a game. Sure, it uses game like mechanics (just like Is It Wrong To Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon) to explain it's systems, but I don't recall it being based on a game the protagonist is familiar with. It's really no different than the classic genre staple of protagonist being transferred to another world (like Escaflowne or El Hazard for example). The only difference being in this specific case though, is that the protagonist is aware of what's coming (though not with much warning) instead of being suddenly dropped on a new world.

Along those lines, the "transfer" genre you mention is basically the same thing, except that instead of an unfamiliar world, the protagonist is familiar with their setting and how the world works. Along with some elements of the game potentially existing as well. I guess it could be considered a sub-genre?

I agree that "being trapped in a game" is different though, since as you implied, the protagonist is clearly tied to the real world, rather than being physically sent somewhere.


Konosuba is a transfer story. Transfer stories just so happen to often have game elements or game systems attached to them. You won't see many free of this coming out lately, though, I guess calling it a subgenre would be right. However, it is a fantasy story first and foremost, so Kazuma doesn't have to do everything by leveling up or allocating skillpoints and doesn't always.

I think you mostly understand what I want to say. It's just that the current flood of these stories thats been happening lately in novels often use game mechanics. But it is still not a video game story like SAO. They are otherworld fantasy stories like Escaflowne(though modern ones are mostly subversions/jokes about it, exploring all the ways it could go wrong) as you mentioned.

This has been a really popular genre lately and is crowding out things like battle highschool as as a cliche lighnovel setting. We'll be seeing more and more of it as most of the new novels are like this.
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LightYapper



Joined: 05 Apr 2016
Posts: 131
Location: Somewhere on Earth
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:07 pm Reply with quote
My thoughts are that Grimgar is more of a "trapped in a game world" genre than a "transfer" one given the premise. The reviewer doesn't seem to be fond of such genres. Anyway, Grimgar is surely a 'must-watch' show for me in Winter 2016.
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relyat08



Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 4125
Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:26 pm Reply with quote
TD912 wrote:
I really liked the art style and direction of this show. After reading this I looked up the Ryosuke Nakamura's previous works, and sure enough, he was also the director of Aiura. I remembered watching it back in ~2013.

Aiura is one of those short 5-min slice of life shows with "cute girls doing cute things", but if you enjoyed the art direction in Grimgar, you'll probably also enjoy taking a look at the art and animation in Aiura.

It seems he's a fan of Andy Warhol and Steve Jobs, judging from the opening animation.


Thanks for the recommendation! I'll have to check that out for the visuals. Smile
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