Forum - View topicINTEREST: Gantz Creator Urges Fans to Buy Manga New, Not Used
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CrownKlown
 Posts: 1762 |
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Reverse seems to be taking a tree for the forest approach.
As some have highlighted, even if you don't consider as an average 10 bucks per volume a lot, remeber that most decent series have anywhere from 20 to something like naurto and one piece 75 plus volumes. Your average series new when you also include tax probably runs you well north of 175 bucks on the low end 400-600 plus on the high end. Then you factor in most people like multiple series, so to own ten series you are easily looking at a 1000 plus. On the flipside you can go to places like half price books, and pick up some series for as low as 99 cents on clearance to the more usual 3-5 bucks per volume. I personally spend a few thousand a year at least on gaming/anime/manga, but at the same time you can see through webtoons and webnovels, that the ideas will always be there and people will write and put out the stuff for basically free anyway. Ideas are not some scarce resource like platnium, so not to sound bleak but even if some people go under others will pop up , so using the old "well if you stop supporting the creators manga and anime will die" is kind of nonsensical. I am not going to say people should do anything, buy myself and others do and will continue to support our favorite artist, but at the same time manga and anime have been around for decades, arguably a few hundred years in the case of manga, and its not all of sudden going to die out. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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What, is he opposed to people reading them or borrowing manga from libraries too? Or sharing between friends and family?
Hey, if those $1 off coupons are a big enough incentive for people to go to certain places, then the same can apply for manga. Used books have become a really big thing...or at least, they did where I worked.
When a store puts something on markdown, they already paid for the goods at the price they would've if it was sold at full price, so the authors should still get the same out of it. The only time they would get less is if it was purchased using a coupon that says the manufacturer or distributor will reimburse that amount (most common with groceries). That being said, I am a rather aggressive couponer (but not an extreme one; I rarely use more than one in a transaction), so I would definitely disagree with him on that count. There has not been a day this week where I didn't buy something either using a coupon, on a promotional discount, or has a loyalty points system.
Oh yes, I know what you mean. I had relatives come over from across the Pacific to visit at around the same time I went to Anime Expo in 2013. They were horrified to learn that I had bought a Reborn! hat there for US$20.
As someone who's worked in one for years, thrift stores are quite thriving. Most of what gets donated in are clothes, but you get a lot of plates and glassware. I remember Larry Niven, big-time science fiction author, came by one day and donated a Galileo thermometer. It was really neat...if it weren't for how the clear liquid inside was gasoline, and we were not allowed to sell anything with gasoline in it (as it'sa fire hazard).
You don't have to go to a brick-and-mortar store...but I also don't trust seller's descriptions either. You have plenty of sellers who don't care about "items not as described" claims, people who buy things and don't report back like that, and new sellers who are not yet concerned about them.
Same here, only with the additional problem of manga rarely ever being in used bookstores for very long. If it's a series of decent popularity, it's gone in a flash. I donated volumes 8 through 16 of Dragon Ball one day (I kept them in near-perfect condition) and saw they were all gone when I visited the next day. Things are changing as far as manga I see in used bookstores though, including the thirft shop I worked at: Over the past year and a half or so, I've been seeing more manga in at least good condition. They aren't selling as well as they used to though, at least where I worked, because the books were just stuffed into the bookshelves with no organization, so it was a real chore for buyers to look. The last manga I saw before I resigned were volumes 1 through 12 of Berserk, with each volume from 5 and onwards still in ther plastic wrap. Also, we kept getting large collections of Ultra Maniac. Libraries, on the other hand, are a different story, especially if the library is oriented towards kids, like the one closest to where I live. It is used as a makeshift day care center, and there are a lot of Caterpillar Room kids who'd stop on by (you'll know what I mean if you've seen Toy Story 3).
Same here, actually. I'd buy books used more, but I care very much about the condition they're in (and that means I'll try my best to not let my books degrade). It kind of resulted in me not letting anyone else borrow my books, which became an issue when I was in elementary school and I managed to find some rare Goosebumps books. (They have since been donated to the aforementioned library, as I had noticed being there that kids kept asking the librarians for Goosebumps books but they barely had any.) Used book stores around here try to keep their books in as good a condition as they can...but it just kind of turns me off when a lot of these books either look like they've been wet or they've absorbed weird smells.
A bit of a nitpick here, but in order to get approval from Kickstarter, your project must have at least a proof of concept (for media) or a prototype (for physical goods). It's to show that, yes, you can make more of these if given the time and money to do so.
Some states have laws that allow someone to work for less than minimum wage too. The first one that comes to mind applies to people who work in direct services, where they receive tips from people, and they are paid below minimum wage under the idea that the tips should push them back to at least minimum wage level. Some states also have laws that allow employers to pay disabled people less than minimum wage, for reasons I don't really understand.
In addition not having any form of amusement in your life takes an incredibly mental strain. Even people at the lowest rungs of poverty and homeless people out on the sidewalks have hobbies. When you're poor, it simply means you have to pick and choose more and think more carefully about what you want to buy. But yes, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be buying manga even if they really enjoy reading it. |
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Cutiebunny
 Posts: 1755 |
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I would like to see a way in which I can send funds to a creator whose work is not licensed in the US. I read a lot of stuff, like Azumi, that will likely never be released in the US. I would love to be able to directly compensate the artist for their work. If I knew that I could give the people who actually made the manga and anime I enjoy, such as the inbetween animators and the assitants to the all important mangaka, more money than the $1/volume that might trickle down to them before the US/Japanese distributors and producers all took their cut, I'd feel a lot better buying new anime and manga. Unfortunately, while companies like Viz like to harp upon the fact that the only way to support your favorite artist is to buy their new products, Viz fails to disclose how much of that purchase actually goes to the artist or animation studio. Obviously, they won't do that because its proprietary, so until they do, I'll continue to support the industry by buying production artwork instead. I feel a lot better buying artwork smuggled out of studios, likely by the artists themselves who are doing it to supplement their income, because I know the money is going back to the artists, and not the producers and distributors who keep a good chunk of profits made.
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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All of this. I've always maintained that buying and selling something used is no less ethical than buying new. I do buy most things new, but if someone makes the claim that buying used is just as bad as piracy, they should be slapped. I've always thought about it as splitting the cost of something. If someone buys my copy of something for half of what I payed, we essentially just split the cost of buying it. The creator still got my money, and only one person still owns that copy. |
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CandisWhite
Posts: 282 |
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As with anything regarding consumers and the, legal, purchase of things, it all falls down to the WHAT, the WHY, and the CONSEQUENCES, as to what is good, better and best. e.g. Purchasing everything, or even anything, used isn't inherently bad, it's why you did it, and the understanding of the consequences of your actions, that's important: I feel that the author is arguing against an attitude more than the action, the attitude of people who want to get as much as they can for as little as they can.
I read many arguments for purchasing used manga over new and wish to address a few of them; I kept track of the topics as I was reading comments so if any of the themes seem to skip back and forth, that's why: 1) Cost of manga There are many levels of economic stability for people but what is or is not expensive is generally based on what middle class consumers can easily afford to buy: $15 is not considered a large amount of money because it is something that the average person, gainfully employed, can easily spare for disposable income; It is even seen as less when you consider that a manga book is permanent, not transient the way that a restaurant meal is. 2) Country of purchaser The sad fact is that many countries do not enjoy the same standard of living, both socially and economically, that wealthy, free, countries do; That is heartbreaking and I have nothing but the utmost sympathy for the average person trying to scrape a living out of those places. I would like to point out 2 things: 1) I believe that the argument being made here is aimed at people who ARE in a position to have purchasing power and that people who are in poor countries, or who live in wealthy countries but have trouble making ends meet, are automatically exempted because they don't have that power. and 2) Fighting the attitude of people who have purchasing power, a power which comes in many levels, and are unwilling to use it in a constructive and healthy manner, an attitude which comes, again, in many levels, is one of the best ways to fight poverty because it helps to negate the need for subsidy and charity. 3) Age of purchaser (high school/ college) One of the largest purchasing, and most advertised to, demographics is the group of people who are young enough to have disposable income without having large outcome demands, who are old enough to earn it themselves or be given a steady amount on a regular basis, and are old enough to make the purchasing decision themselves. It is a healthy thing to teach teens why things cost what they do, and where their money goes when they spend it. 4) Author was paid at original time of sale, so why is used bad? Okay, this problem is a much, much, smaller thing but it was brought up so I'll address it: Authors and publishing companies get paid with every release; Books that are re-printed count as new chances for sales i.e. new money for the author. 5) MSRP bad Buying retail is the choice of the consumer but know that every dollar you refuse to spend comes out of the pockets of people trying to make a living. Your choices are not all or nothing; Buying what you can at retail helps out, especially in the niche market of anime and manga, and if there's anything that should be easy to swallow paying full price for, it's a $15 book. 6) The cost of long-running manga ( which, BTW, is staggered-You are buying a small piece each time) All right, here we go. This one is the doozy, and I'm glad it was last on my list, because it encompasses the very argument people make for trying to pay as little as they can, the very attitude that I and, from what I can tell, this author, are trying to fight: "I can't afford to buy everything that I would like to buy so I will pay as little as I can so that I can have as much as I can." No one, and I mean NO ONE, will ever be able to buy everything that they would like: It doesn't matter how many billions of dollars you are worth, it is possible of anyone to MC Hammer themselves. It is a perfectly healthy point-of-view to live within your means but wanting to have more and more by cutting out other people's right to earn a decent living is, in my opinion, abhorrent; You are denying someone the right to a gainful career just so you can have things like 4 manga books instead of 1, things that won't really alter your life for the better but will hurt someone else's because you demanded the same labour but paid only 1/4 the price. It's the attitude, and the consequences, that make the action sad. There is no one face to this sort of thing: It's the woman buying books at a library sale, because books worth $30 can be got for $1, and not donating the difference to the library; It's the man standing in line at Wal-Mart complaining about the prices of brand-new Blu-rays ( and the lack of cashiers because THAT GUY is always behind you) while telling his buddy how excited he is that's he got great seats to see Drake; It's the person at the movies who complains about the cost of tickets and snacks while playing games on his brand-new phone and then doesn't take 5 seconds to throw his garbage out at the end of the film. Most people feel strongly about this when it comes to employers but tend to miss the other half of the coin that is consumers: Understanding where your money goes, why it goes where it does, and what it does once it gets there, puts a human face on what is otherwise a blank transaction; This is especially important in a niche market like manga and anime. |
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leafy sea dragon
Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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Shows like Extreme Couponing and Extreme Cheapskates must drive you nuts. The latter does for me, but that's mostly because of the rude and inconsiderate behavior most of them have to all other people as well as a weird moral smugness nearly all of them have. More so than people complaining they can't save a buck, however, are the people I think are truly hurting other people as far as wages and income go are shoplifters and other petty thieves. More so than the people who pocket jewelry, small electronics, and collectibles are the impulse shoplifters who steal things that don't make any sense but render the rest of the item worthless that they didn't steal. Working in retail, common things I saw get stolen all the time were detachable power cords, single shoes, remote controls, pictures removed from their frames, and single small items out of sets of small items (like silverware or chess sets). There are also those who destroy things without buying or taking anything, the people who seem to have a need to open every package they see and mindlessly fiddle with the contents inside, resulting in frequent incidents like a pile of jigsaw puzzle pieces on the floor, DVD and Blu-Ray players with their disc trays permanently stuck because they jammed it (often physically damaging the players), and books with pages ripped out and scattered around. They're the ones making things significantly worse for other people without anywhere close to an equal benefit for themselves. (These are NOT kids doing this--most of these incidents I saw were caused by adults. We also got a lot of "grazing," which is the act of picking up food and drink from off the shelves, eating it completely within the store, then throwing away any empty wrappers and packaging into nearby trash cans.) Shoplifting is a vicious cycle though. Some people say that shoplifting by guests is only the tip of the iceberg, with theft by employees being the part below the surface. The idea is that employees who get frustrated at something, whether it be the nature of their work, their paychecks, or how they are treated by their clients, are likely to take things from work either as a means of bolstering their paycheck or out of pure spite. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Helo CandisWhite.
I applaud you for granting these exceptions to the scope of your complaint, but as I am sure you are aware, younger and thus poorer readers are the target audiences of a great many manga series. This being so, it would not surprise me if a large number of habitual second-hand manga buyers, perhaps even a small majority, would escape your criticism due to their lack of purchasing power with which you sympathise. |
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StaticLord
Posts: 6 |
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I'm from Poland and manga is cheap, but the choice is not as big as in the US. Sometimes I order something from across the ocean but it's ridiculous. Prices are high(like a normal book here) and you pay the same amount or more for [expletive] customs and shipping. It should be no surprise people buy used volumes. Best time for manga shopping was a few years back when the dollar was shit. Sadly now it's built up a bit.
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay. It's one thing to argue though that buying used means passing up an opportunity to buy an additional new copy and thus a lost sale opportunity for the creator. But even assuming* this is true, the question you're not addressing is "Why is the buyer ethically required to take advantage of this opportunity?" I question whether that's a reasonable demand to make of people. Your broader position seems to be that it is wrong to "pay as little as [one] can so that [one] can have as much as [they] can."** If we define "pay as little as one can" as "just read it in the store regardless of ability to afford it" then I'd agree. But when you're buying used it would be more accurate to say you're simply paying less that you have to. That being the case though, it raises the question of exactly how much more than "as little as one can" is required of a person? Certainly it's not that you're obligated to pay "as much as you can" either. After all, you can always argue that there's a potential additional sale to be made. If I'm a big fan of a series, why not buy two copies of each volume? Why not three? Especially when a series gets reprinted, I could always buy it again. These are all potential opportunities to support the creator. Of course one might respond: In that case you have no reason to buy a series again if you already own it so it isn't really a "lost sale" per se. However, this is just circular reasoning. You have no reason to buy new when you're fine with used either except, apparently that it is wrong to buy used. But why? Why treat these cases as different? This is the point I'm driving at. Your standard for just how much more than "as little as possible" that people ought to pay seems largely arbitrary. Certainly it might be supererogatory to buy new (and even more so to buy multiple copies). But I also think one has surely met the standard ethically required by buying used. If one person at a given time wants to own/read a copy of a book, and that book has been bought and paid for once at the price set by the publisher, then I believe it is fair to say that the author has been adequately compensated for that book. *Although I don't actually think this is a good argument for reasons I explained in the last paragraph of my previous post. **At least barring some excusing condition which you seem to grant do exist. |
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enurtsol
 Posts: 14813 |
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In a stagnant economy, second-hand book shops have been becoming big business in Japan, such that at one point, the Japanese publishers are even considering bypassing the first-sale doctrine by pushing to control that and get a cut of the second-hand pie.
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Top Gun
 Posts: 4652 |
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This is patently absurd. As a consumer, it is my FUNCTION to get as much bang for my buck as I possibly can. To do otherwise would literally mean throwing money away. I easily own over a hundred anime series and movies on DVD and Blu-ray, everything from SAVE thinpacks to (a few) fancy special editions, but I can guarantee you that my collection wouldn't even be a quarter as large as it is had I paid full MSRP for everything. Are you really going to tell me that I'm "denying someone's career" because I saw products offered for what I felt was a reasonably good deal, and chose to spend my money wisely? By this same logic, no one should ever buy a used car, because it directly harms the assembly-line workers who pieced it together. Look, at the end of the day, these are cartoons and comics. We're all essentially paying people to play pretend and share their play with us, and that's a very good thing for everyone involved. But let's not try to pretend that there's any sort of noble altruism involved. Anime and manga creators sign contracts that pay them a salary and/or sales commissions for the content they create. We as consumers see products we desire and have to decide if they're worth the cost. The entire in-between process, from licensing to distribution to sales techniques, is designed so that everyone at every step is making as much money off the product as they can. Unless you're acting as a direct patron to a creator and specifically paying them to produce a certain item of content (something which the Internet has actually made possible), then this is every bit a producer/consumer affair, no different than purchasing any other type of product. |
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Actar
 Posts: 1074 Location: Singapore |
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Can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm pretty much in agreement with ikillchicken and Top Gun on this one (while not in those exact words). Many times, we become so obsessed with the creator that we tend to forget that we as consumers have rights as well.
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Wandering Samurai
 Posts: 875 Location: USA |
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If the series is good, I will more than likely buy it new, but if I'm going to test the waters on it, I'm probably going to buy it used. There is one series though that I will always buy it new, One Piece.
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mrsatan
 Posts: 912 |
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I guess the dialogue examples wouldn't do the English speaking audience much good, right? A couple years ago, Shonen Jump decided to reprint Kinnikuman again, with brand new cover art! I was so excited, I ordered the whole series! New, of course, and it was not cheap. Little did I know, it was censored beyond belief. A few examples of things that don't fly in the 21st century Japan (political incorrectness and parody): 
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I understand that you are coming from a well meaning place, but you are casting moral aspersions on consumers, particularly lower income ones, and presenting inaccurate beliefs about the relationship between consumer choices and poverty. There is absolutely nothing morally wrong about getting four manga volumes for the price of one, buying anything used regardless of one's income bracket, living life within one's means, or making financial choices for oneself. Even your examples make no sense. There is no relationship between the price one is willing to pay for physical media versus the price they would pay to attend a concert in person. There is also no moral obligation to pay more for media because you are willing and able to afford go to a concert. And if you care so much about the ethical obligation of consumers, what are you doing at Wal-Mart, anyway? That store is notorious for mistreating its workers in general, and paying the lowest wages it can get away with, encouraging its workers to apply for government supplements like food stamps and even organizing holiday food drives for its own employees. There is a cognitive dissonance when you can claim that somebody who purchases books at a library sale (where the books are usually donated and all profits go to the library or another non-profit) is somehow morally inferior to someone who buys a brand new Blu-ray at Wal-Mart. If you care about ethics in consumerism, read up on arguments about buying mostly locally made goods from privately owned small businesses (including used book stores, thrift shops and non-profits) and getting produce from farmer's markets as opposed to chain supermarkets. There is room for ethics in consumer culture, certainly. For example, here is the Wikipedia article on Ethical Consumerism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_consumerism I'll admit that I only skimmed it, but I didn't see anything there about how buying consumer products used is considered unethical by anybody, under any circumstances (eg, no matter "why you did it," or even who did it). If you know of any scholarly research or philosophy that suggests that it is, please share it. And if you can prove your notion that there is somehow a direct correlation between consumers choosing to spend full price on products and a reduced need for supplements, charity, or a reduction in poverty in general, please share that, too. Because I suspect that notion is total BS. There are a lot of complicated factors in our worldwide economy that is reducing the size of the middle class, increasing the amount of people who fall below the poverty line, and increasing the amount of wealth the top one percent can hoard. Individual consumers choosing to pay full price for brand new manga, especially outside of Japan, doesn't impact those factors in the least. |
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