Forum - View topicNEWS: "Cool Japan" Initiative Gets Government Investment Fund
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VORTIA
 SubscriberPosts: 943 |
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I think that's a rather unfair generalization that ignores all the attempts by Japanese companies to reach outside audiences. Various efforts have been made by numerous animators and game publishers in Japan to appeal to Western audiences, but most of them have fallen flat. Generally, this has been because they attempted to mimick what they believe Western audiences like, ultimately resulting in something which is a pale copy of Western entertainment that loses the unique qualities that attracted Western audiences to anime or Japanese games in the first place. Many have commented that they are generally perplexed that Western audiences find their work interesting at all. They are well aware of the alien nature of Japanese entertainment in Western markets, and they're kind of surprised anyone from outside would find anything to like about it. Since attempting to cater to Western audiences has come to be considered a recipe for failure in the domestic market and lackluster sales overseas, most have simply resolved to keep doing what they've always done, and if a few foreigners happen to buy it as well, then great. The issue is that Japanese creators need to realize that it's not the art that needs to change, it's the marketing and distribution apparatus. Japanese artists mimicking American ones won't result in a hit in America, it will look exactly like what it is - a Japanese work posing as an American one. All they need is to make their work available through regular channels, accessible linguistically, and approach the market with realistic expectations. |
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Ryo Hazuki
Posts: 368 Location: Finland |
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The Japan-USA co-productions that I know of (Metamorphoses, Adventures of American Rabbit, Little Nemo), which were aimed at western audiences are pretty much forgotten, whereas purely Japanese produced Space Battleship Yamato and Akira (plus the whole Ghibli catalogue) have had some success in the western countries as well.
Even in its edited Robotech form Macross had things, which American cartoons rarely had at that time like character deaths and over arching plot. It's the things, which made it different from American cartoons that made successful in the western countries as well. The same is true for a lot of anime. Just like Pixar became popular by offering a good alternative to Disney movies at the time. |
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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I could mention 3 counterexamples to your assertion that anime co-productions are failures: Mysterious cities of Gold, Ulysses 31 as Franco-Japanese productions that are not forgotten at all in Europe. And Sherlock Hound an Italo-Japanese production famous as well. The Japanese don't do marketing research, they think what works in Japan ipso facto works in the west. And it was never that way. You could have every possible combination : famous series in Japan, did poorly in the west. Poor series in Japan did ok in the west. Famous series in Japan became famous in the west.
No, Europe and Latin America to a certain extent had had an anime boom years before Robotech was even conceived by the Americans. Grendizer was capturing the whole of France in 1978 !!! 7 freaking years before Robotech was even broadcast in the US and almost 9 years before it would arrive in France. Grendizer was broadcast in prime time (can you imagine that ?) and was capturing something like over 95% audience on public tv. Something to wrap your head around. Pixar became popular because it targeted adults and children alike. And the stories were good. There's no magic there. Traditional Disney movies could be as good as anything put out by Pixar. They just chose not to. Lowest common denominator and all that... |
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mdo7
 Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Cptn_Taylor is correct, Ryo Hazuki. I think you should've done some more research before putting up your evidence which is no longer effective. Also I sort of agreed with Cptn_Taylor about Japan still being closed society and probably insular. I mean anybody remember the Japan's pre-iphone/android phone that couldn't be exported outside of Japan. Well, now Iphones and much more advance smartphone (like Samsung Galaxy S series) are now overtaking Japan's own smartphone in Japan itself (according to Enurtsol, please come in and verify that so people won't call on BS on me). I also recall Japan couldn't do mass export of this certain Nissan car. Also he's right about the Korean culture are making a huge impression all over the world. I know K-pop hasn't gone mainstream in the US yet, but it's already gain popularity and is popping up on US media more frequently. Gangnam Style had a good side effect for K-pop. 
Above is the chart of of weekly views on the top K-Pop channels on YouTube. 
Above is the chart of K-pop views on Youtube, and K-pop has gotten more views outside of Asia after GS and Gentlemen. In other word, I don't know how big K-pop fanbases has gotten after both of Psy's MV went viral, but I've already met a lot of new fans of K-pop that said if it wasn't for Psy, they wouldn't have discovered Girls Generation, BigBang, 2NE1, 4minute, Apink, etc... You'll never see J-pop getting this huge view. I wonder if Japan can make a "Gangnam Style" J-pop MV, maybe that'll help J-pop get attention.
M2M was popular in Taiwan, they were popular enough for a Taiwanese pop group, Popu Lady to have done a Chinese version remake of one of their song.
You didn't explain to me why K-pop artists still do Chinese-language album despite Chinese market being smaller then Korea, and why it didn't stop them from doing that. Look, if K-pop artists can go to the Chinese market and sing in Chinese despite China and Taiwan music market being smaller then Korea, then why can't J-pop artists debut in Korea and China and sing in those languages. If J-pop artists can get more money from the Korean, and Chinese market. They still make profit, if J-pop artists sing in multiple languages, it makes them more talented, I don't see anything wrong with that.
And K-pop does that, it makes them more talented when they sing in multiple languages and it show those artists are hard-working and shows Korean music industry are smart on marketing in other countries. So will Taiwan and Canto-pop singers from Hong Kong if they managed to replicate this same style and system like K-pop by doing Korean-language and Japanese-language albums. Taiwan as I mention on my first post is trying to replicate this:
What would happen let say the Taiwanese boy group JPM wanted to do a Korean-language and Japanese-language album in the future. What would happen if Dreamgirls, a Taiwanese girl group wanted to do both Korean and Japanese language album and that did well. Also what if the cantopop singer, G.E.M end up entering South Korea and Japan (singing in both Korean and Japanese) after and she ends up being compare to K-pop singers BoA, and IU. That's what I want to see from J-pop artists, singing in not only in Japanese and English, but also in Korean, and Chinese. If you want to know why K-pop artists are like very very talented, this video may explain why, and also the CEO of Universal Music Japan said this:
The K-idols training is so unique you can't find this outside of Korea. Not even western countries have this type of training like K-idols goes through. Now because of the Hallyu, there's going to be other Asian countries trying to adapt this training, and I wouldn't be surprise if Taiwan model their idol nurturing/training from South Korea's K-idol system. The K-idol training/nurturing also comes with foreign language learning that's why K-pop artists are talented in multiple languages. If Japan can adapt this nuturing/training system from Korea and should include foreign language learning for J-pop idol group, then J-pop can replicate the same success like K-pop did outside of Asia. You can make J-pop idols as talented as K-pop including singing in multiple languages not only English and Japanese.
I'll give you an example of K-pop groups that survive by overseas fans: U-KISS: Now this group is not popular in Korea, they're underappreciated in their homeland. They would've disband if they hadn't focuse on oversea market. U-KISS is popular among Japanese fans, Latin American fans, and European fans. After School: This K-pop girl group is not that popular in their homeland, but has a large fanbases overseas for them to stick together. So you see, Bright would've not disbanded if they had focus on international market not local market. Bright could've gotten more money from overseas then their local, the same goes for least popular J-pop group or J-pop group that had disband. Actually Bright could've been Japan's equivalent of After School if they had focus on international market.
Kylee would be more talented if she can sing in Chinese. American market is going to be hard for her to breakthrough (since Asian singers tend to fail in the US). She didn't do well in Japan too, so maybe having her targeting Korea and China would help her and she can still get money (maybe they would appreciate her better then Japan). If she can sing in Korean, and Chinese that would not only show she's talented singing in multiple language. It can help her get attention around the world outside the anime fandom if she did Korean-language and Chinese-language album. I'm still optimistic if "Cool Japan" will work, I want to see this reaching the same level as the Hallyu Wave did. But until I see some major breakthrough, I remain skeptic. But it does seem the right direction for Japan, but will it work? |
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VORTIA
Subscriber Posts: 943 |
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While those charts show a global growth in interest for K-Pop, which I doubt any would dispute is occuring, it doesn't provide any hard numbers, nor does it indicate whether those who are "checking out" K-Pop online are becoming actual customers who profit the performers and companies.
It's a difference in terms of scale. China's music market is half that of Korea's. Foreign musical acts will rarely outperform local ones, but theoretically, if a K-Pop band is just as popular in China as they are at home, they've increased their profits 50%. If they get that big in Japan, their profits are 24 times what they are in Korea! On the other hand, if a Japanese band is as popular in Korea as they are in Japan, their earnings increase just 4%, or just 2% for China. It's the exact same reason Europop artists sing in English, but you don't see American artists putting out Chinese language albums - you could make more money expanding your market share in your home country than you will pursuing foreign sales.
Singing in a foreign language may be an impressive skill and may prove you are hard-working, but the reason K-Pop is more focused on overseas marketing is because they have to be to make more money. Japanese record labels aren't in the same situation. I'm making this as clear as I can - K-Pop is more focused on marketing elsewhere in Asia because there's far more profit to be made for them that way then in the home market. That's not the case in the U.S., and it's not the case in Japan.
Considering the source and the event at which that quote was produced, you'll have to forgive me for interpreting that solely as typical Japanese humility. J-idols have their own very rigorous regimen of training, but the focus is very different, because what it means to be a J-idol is very different. Korean idols are essentially all-around performers, similar to American actors and actresses back in the Silver Screen era of musicals in Hollywood. A Japanese idol's primary focus and sales point is the projecting of an idealized image of masculinity or femininity. A K-Pop idol exists to sing and dance. A J-Pop idol exists to be admired.
Once again, you're missing the difference in market scale. A band from Korea that isn't popular there but is popular in Japan is going to be making more money than they ever could have at home. A Japanese band that couldn't make it in Japan is going to be seeing comparatively paltry returns on investment attempting to break into Korea.
I'm optimistic for Cool Japan as well, but I don't think Korean or Chinese language performance is a necessary part of that. When PSY broke K-Pop into the global conscience he didn't rely on the ability to sing in a foreign language, he relied on good exposure, marketing, and creativity, the same way folks like Otomo and Shiro woke Americans up to anime back in the late 80s and early 90s. J-Pop doesn't need to try to be K-Pop. In fact, that be a terrible thing because the result would simply be a shallow copy of K-Pop. What J-Pop needs is the support of a sound and flexible market strategy that will put out on the world stage where people can see it, hear it, and have ready access to buying it if they choose to. More Japanese recording companies need to be using Youtube as a marketing tool instead of trying to stomp out their presence there. Nobody is going to be interested in your product if they don't know it exists! |
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Avril Lavigne (although she's Canadian) did that one time, BTW. 
But there were US artists that sang in Spanish, (ie: NSYNC, Backstreet Boys) despite Mexico music market is smaller then US. Also a lot of US artists music do sell outside of USA too, if you didn't know. They also do world tour like for example: Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift, Demi Lovato all mainstream western artists have done world tour (the same for NSYNC, and Backstreet Boys) unlike mainstream J-pop which a lot of them have never done world tour. For Demi Lovato, I know Japan is the 2nd biggest music market, but I do find it odd for Demi to not have a concert in Japan as part of her world tour when Japan is worth a lot of money. So you see despite US being the biggest music market, US artists still do world tour and US music are sold outside of USA (that's why on UK/Europe music chart you'll see US pop music topping the chart), so US artists still depend on the international market. That's the difference between US and Japan. US is #1, yet they still market their music outside of US. While Japan being #2, doesn't market their music outside of Japan nor Asia.
I'm not saying J-pop should be like K-pop, if Japan can't market their J-pop artists and their song outside of Japan and Asia the same way Korea does for K-pop. Then I would let the Korean sign them up to do a Korean-language album (as in translating their songs from Japanese to Korean), and Korean labels can put J-pop artists' Korean album on Itunes, and it could attract a lot of people that aren't familiar with J-pop. Also J-pop fans that can't get access to J-pop CDs or MP3 will listen to their Korean language songs and watch their Korean-language MVs on Youtube (it's hard to find most of J-pop MVs on Youtube), better proposition then crying over not finding J-pop Mp3 on Itunes or finding J-pop MVs on Youtube (due to Japan's draconian copyright and anti-piracy law). I agreed with you Japan really need to make use of Youtube more effectively, if they can study Korea's method of marketing music, then J-pop could catch the same fire like K-pop did. But Japan music industry doesn't promote/market their music the same way Korea does. Hence, why I'm optimistic and skeptical. I like to note when a US film get a premiere in East Asia, in the past, it used to be Japan (alongside China I believe) where the premiere is held, but now the Asian premiere for Hollywood films is now in South Korea not Japan anymore. South Korea has became the fifth-largest global market in the movie industry. When it comes to Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. Japan is different from Korea and Taiwan, Japan doesn't seem to embrace the internet the same way Korea and Taiwan does. I never heard of Japan doing any research and development in IT/ICT where Korea and Taiwan are actively doing more R&D in ICT/IT then Japan and US does. I mean: South Korea top ICT developments for 3 straight years Japan didn't make the top 20 list. So that's why South Korea is considered the "most wired place on earth". It looks like Taiwan is trying to catch up to South Korea. Both Taiwan and Korea does embrace the digital music market, unlike Japan (which backs up Answerman about why Japan music industry doesn't use Itunes). So it's very likely Taiwan could become the next "South Korea" if Taiwan does this correctly. But Cool Japan, you're just like me I'm optimistic and skeptic. I like to add that I met former J-pop fans that said the reason they quite J-pop is that "J-pop artists don't give a damn about their international fans". I heard some former J-pop fans said why can't J-pop artists be more like their K-pop counterpart when it comes to international fans and perform more outside of Japan. |
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VORTIA
Subscriber Posts: 943 |
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Of course American artists sell and are marketed overseas, they just don't need to sing in Korean or Norwegian or whatever to do so.
I agree with you that Japanese companies are dinosaurs, and need to get with the times if they are going to market their intellectual property effectively. The whole idea that J-Pop artists are going to jump ship and sign with Korean labels to perform in Korean? Pretty damn unlikely. Unlike the US, most of them are owned lock, stock and barrel by their labels, and even if they weren't, the incentive to transition over is non-existant, because the Japanese music market is still vastly more profitable than the K-Pop scene, overseas sales included. Japanese companies aren't about to sign their talent over to Korean firms for "help" either. If they wanted to use a more modern distribution and marketing strategy, they would do it themselves. It's not a lack of know-how holding Japanese companies back on Youtube and iTunes, it's the stagnant, risk-averse decision making at the top levels of the company that fear piracy more than they desire success, and would rather force people to continue adhering to old business models than aapt with the times. Change is coming. Japan's recent anti-piracy bill damaged music sales. Eventually, someone's going to be sharp enough or confident enough to jump out there and break the scene wide-open, but until then we all have to deal with them huddling in their ivory towers. As for folks quitting J-Pop because they "don't care about their international fans", I don't see how that's even an issue. If you like their performance, you're a fan. If you don't, then you don't. They don't owe you a performance, and they don't owe it to you in your desired format, at your desired time and at your desired price. They're from a different culture with different ways of doing things. I don't get charged more for a J-Pop CD or concert ticket than a Japanese person, so I don't see how they can be caring any less about their international fans. I think it's a silly business model, but I don't have a "right" to their music. Someday, Japanese record companies will realize how many more sales they could make offering downloads at a reasonable price and it'll be win-win for everyone. |
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Yeah, well I hope Japan can pull this off because K-pop is currently is getting more well-known around the world. If Japan fail to push J-pop at the same level as K-pop did, then expect C-pop/Taiwanese Pop to become the next Asian pop to get popular outside of Asia after K-pop. You know here's something interest I read from Beyond Hallyu, another K-pop website which discuss in-depth on K-pop/Hallyu from interesting perspective. One article from BH got my attention, it talked about Hallyu may not have gone global if it wasn't for piracy. I just want to clarify I don't promote or defend piracy in anyway nor get involved in it. But I do see the pro and con of piracy. The Hallyu seem to show the pro of piracy. I know Cool Japan may or maynot work. But VORTIA, what do you think "Cool Japan" can learn from the Hallyu Wave to make it work and successful around the world. How can "Cool Japan" become Japan's Hallyu?? What method would you use from the Hallyu and implement it for "Cool Japan" to make it work? |
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VORTIA
Subscriber Posts: 943 |
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Honestly, I don't find anything particularly miraculous about K-Pop's increased popularity, and I think it's success is overblown. I feel K-Pop straddles an easy stylistic mid-point between American, European, and Japanese pop music. It's primary claim to fame is that it is exotic and not-burdened by the limitations of digital access to C-Pop and J-Pop. There's a global distribution standard for media developing. Korea is on it. Japan wants nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, if they want to stand a chance marketing media overseas, they need to get on it. |
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Yeah I share that same thought. It looks like you and I do think alike. 
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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While I do understand the relevance as, whether some fans want to admit it, Korea is a major player in that market now and a huge competitor. As such, the comparison is very valid in this discussion, particularly when you consider this kind of thing is very likely in response to Korea's rise in the market. Still, let's try and remember this is still about Japan, so let's try and keep the topic grounded in that respect. Not saying you can't discuss the comparison between the two, just want to be sure this discussion doesn't become entirely about Korea.
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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I understand, I didn't mean to go off topic, after I saw how South Korea rise to become "cultural superpower" when it comes to music and pop culture, and studying how did Korea make an impression on the world and analyzing and the method of distributing and marketing their product which ended up becoming popular outside of Asia. I mean K-pop was the first time an Asian pop music got mainstream popularity outside of Asia, something J-pop (or any Asian pop music, I'm not going to count J-rock since that is a different genre of music) wasn't able to do. What I'm discussing is that Japan should learn from their Korean counterpart on how to market/promote their product outside of Japan and Asia. If they do it right like how South Korea did then Japan can create a wave like the Hallyu Wave. Now because South Korea was able to show that Asian pop music and dramas can get popular outside of Asia, other Asian countries may try to replicate this (ie: Taiwan is trying to do this too), if Japan isn't taking this seriously, they'll fall behind. I don't want to see Japan falling behind their other Asian counterparts. I want Japan to be able to do this. Japan need to stop fearing piracy because piracy will always happen no matter what, and also have to stop fearing the internet and embrace it like Taiwan, and Korea did (it's no wonder why South Korea is #1 on ICT development global ranking for the last 3 years). |
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GhostShell
Posts: 1009 Location: Richmond, B.C., Canada |
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Agreed. Think 10 billion yen is closer to 98.5 million USD, 50 billion is closer to 492 million USD, and 460 trillion yen is closer to 4.54 trillion USD. Something's way off. |
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Yeah you're right, I assume Ghostshell is correct on this one. |
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mdo7
Posts: 6309 Location: Katy, Texas, USA |
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Well it looks like Cool Japan is going the right way (maybe). I saw this on Crunchyroll that according to Bloomberg news, it looks like Japan may give anime more push to be marketed outside of Asia. So it look like Prime Minister Abe is going the right direction. Now all Japan need to do is give J-dramas and J-pop music the same push for global appeal, if they can take a few pages from South Korea for pop music and dramas, then Japan and "Cool Japan" can replicate it's own Hallyu Wave.
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