Forum - View topicMaria the Virgin Witch (TV).
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18271 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Not at all what I meant when I said "genuine misunderstanding." I'm referring to cases where a person truly doesn't know a vital implication/meaning for a word. Recent example: the use of "trap" as a slang term. I was completely unaware until recently that it is considered derogatory to apply it to a boy/man who could easily pass for a girl/woman when dressing like one. Or, like in this thread, when I explained what a hand cannon vs. an arquebus was. We never had a clear mutual misunderstanding of what "malice" meant. The issue has been that you're proscribing it to motivations where I don't think it's justifiable. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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And how is that resolved? That is fundamentally a disagreement over the application of the word. "Can this word be applied to X behavior vs Y behavior?" That relies purely on a common understanding of its meaning. If I say malice applies to the Church's behavior and you say it doesn't, the only way that such a disagreement can be resolved is by trying to align our understandings of what "malice" means. If such an alignment can be performed, then one of us can say "oh I wasn't aware of that, perhaps you're not completely off your rocker." At a minimum, it allows for some acknowledgment that the other person's interpretation has some validity. I know it is like a death sentence on the internet to have to say "perhaps you were right," but at a minimum people can say that you might have a point rather than holding on to an absolute opinion. Like I said, i'm not immune to that. Earlier in the thread, Blood- noted that I was being loose and overly broad in how I was arguing something and I was like "You know what Blood-, good point. Let me correct what I said." And that's what I did. I feel like, in this instance, you were assuming that malice is something greater than "ill will." I don't know, maybe you were thinking it means something more cartoonishly dastardly. It's not a big deal. Malice isn't a word that people commonly use. I had a sense of what it means, but I still looked it up myself to get a better grasp since i'm not some linguistic prodigy. But anyway, is it THAT hard to occasionally say CK can be right? Even Blood- does it sometimes! |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18271 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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No, I know exactly what the words means. I still think that you are reading specifically-targeted "ill will" into situations where that isn't happening.
My point has always been that the Church doesn't have anything against Maria that it doesn't have against witches in general. And acting out of fear or because you see someone as a threat isn't inherently ill will/malice/evil. Moral relativity has absolutely nothing to do with that. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2912 |
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Well, the theory of spoiler[hymen penetration and what not going around these parts more or less gets scrapped after this episode. I also guessed right about Bernard using witches for his own ends. ]
For the rest of the users engaged in their own philosophical wars, this episode should prove to be quite the disappointment given its reliance on spoiler[cliched trollops. But the dilemma forced upon Maria (her happiness through raising a family or the happiness of all around her by stopping wars through magic) is what I think one of the key tenets of this series. ] Next week is the final episode, so Michael's decision on what to do with the impertinent witch and his rationale for doing so should be interesting. |
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jroa
Posts: 542 |
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Frankly, I'm quite glad that the reason for spoiler[Maria losing her magic] wasn't what had been previously suggested here. As for the rest of the episode, there's certainly some "sappiness" if you want to call it that. But I think it works with the themes the show has already set up from the beginning. In fact, I really liked the interactions between Maria and Joseph this week. Whenever some people instinctively complain about "cliches" my reaction is to take a step back and see if the story has already set up a framework where they can play a valid role for the purposes of the narrative. Which is certainly the case here, as far as I'm concerned, so I think this is fine. With that in mind and thinking back to the very first confrontation Maria and Joseph had with Michael, I suppose it's not hard to predict where the show is going to end up now. I think it's likely to at least indirectly touch upon some of my own thoughts, one way or another, but I don't know exactly to what extent. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 256 |
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Oh dear.
Episode 11, eh? By the mid-point, I was playing obnoxious-over-used-Disney-cliche bingo. By the end of the episode, I'd won. Reminds me of the end of Final Fantasy XIII, spoiler[where the writers have boxed themselves into a corner via the game's internal logic, and hence have to fall back on "you just need to believe in yourself" and a hefty dose of deus ex machina to pull out a happy ending.] Also, a few animation fails this week. Disappointing given how consistently solid the show has been in that respect. In fairness, it's still one of the better shows airing this season. It's just that it's fallen down to the level of "good genre piece" (I'd rank it about on a par with something like Chaika the Coffin Princess), whereas at the mid-point in its run, it felt as though it could be something very special. Disappointment and a failure to live up to potential are turning into real themes of a lot of this season's shows for me (Death Parade, Durarara, Parasyte, Rolling Girls, possibly KanColle). On the plus side, spoiler[I'm amused to note that they explained some of what I had assumed was plain old inaccuracy/anachronism around the effectiveness of medieval medicine by telling us that it was all magic anyway.] Also on the plus side, this makes four consecutive episodes where Funimation haven't botched the translation of the episode title from Latin. 
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jroa
Posts: 542 |
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I'm not surprised by the fact you didn't care too much for the corny and/or merely romantic parts. However, I don't think there was any strictly defined "deus ex machina" in this episode. spoiler[The way Maria recovered her powers, for one thing, actually makes sense considering she never lost her physical virginity in the first place. It wasn't like she used them to magically defeat Galfa either. For another, there are still important issues that remain unresolved and will probably be addressed by the last episode .] Everything that happened had its roots in elements and ideas the show has, to a greater or lesser extent, already played with. Take the power of belief, for example. That's not a sudden revelation. Which is why believe the episode fits within the internal logic of the series. And honestly, considering God exists in this fictional universe, even a full-blown "deus ex machina" wouldn't be out of place. It would be quite...well, Biblical, for lack of a better term. 
I will agree about the presence of some visible animation flaws, though those were combined with a few good sequences (the tree's growth was rather well done). Hopefully those mistakes and shortcuts will be fixed for the disc release, which I fully intend to purchase once Funimation brings it over. Curiously enough, there have been previous comparisons to Chaika on other forums. I haven't actually watched any of that series myself though. |
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Stark700
 Posts: 11762 Location: Earth |
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Episode 11:
So I wonder what spoiler[kind of finale we will be seeing? Will Michael welcome the fact that Maria now has a boyfriend? or will there be consequences?] The fight between Joseph and Galfa was bloody but somehow entertaining as well. Anyways, hyped for next week. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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I thought it interesting that Maria isn't attempting to hide from Michael anymore. Historically Michael has been my-way-or-the-highway and has the firepower to back it up. I can't imagine what she is intending to say to him next episode. Highlight: Lolotte. What a gal. There really is something to be said for a wench that can sling her fallen boyfriend and her loot and haul it all out the door while singing an off-color ditty. She looks slender and pretty too. I wonder why Galfa isn't more into her. In her own way she is more awesome than Maria. Speaking of Galfa we get some conformation as to why he was reluctant to rape Maria. Some of our guesses were right. Bernard: what a dick always was a dick always will be a dick. Hypocritical seems too tame a word to describe his attitude about using "anything" to make the world a better place. I'd feel bad for Gilbert but the murderous little twit had it coming. At the end Maria amply demonstrates why Michael doesn't want her to exert her power so publicly. What church of the humans could compete with that? |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Like I said, the other witches don't have a gigantor target on their back. The church isn't sending people to rape them and burn them at the stake. Right now, Maria has all of their "ill will." |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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If that is true then where does all this scripture/dogma come from that states even talking to a witch is a sin? Where did the code come from that they used to condemn Maria? |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I'm not saying the church didn't have a historical disdain for witches. Obviously they do. The point is that, at present, they have had all of their ill will focused on Maria. Frankly I think it is ridiculous that we are even debating whether the church has been out to get her. It's another one of these instances where people twist themselves into a pretzel to avoid admitting simple obvious truths. I will say though, I do agree that Lolotte had a funny little scene there when she threw Galfa over her shoulder and carried him out singing a tune. It made me chuckle and like her character a bit more. As for Galfa, he continues to be a total bastard. I don't understand why people see him as a sympathetic, nuanced character. He's a ruthless, greedy drunkard and he would have been all too happy to kill Joseph and Maria (and he said he wanted to also "tear through her purity" while brandishing the metal hand with knives. I don't think I want to imagine what he was talking about there). This guy is about the worst human being we have seen in recent memory. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18271 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Says a person who was also plenty guilty of that. The discussion was never really about whether or not the Church was out to get Maria; it was about whether or not doing so was evil. And yeah, I am also quite a bit more of a fan of Lolotte after this episode. Also loved the way the Joseph/Galfa fight played out, how spoiler[Maria didn't hesitate to resort to physicality in the absence of her magic], and Artemis and Priapus's running commentary on the whole Maria/Joseph conversation. Not sure how I feel yet about how that all resolved, as I definitely did not expect it to go down like that. Gotta love Maria's tenacity, though! |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15523 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Episode 11
Well what spoiler[brought Maria's powers back] was pretty much along the lines of what spoiler[Viv said] in the other episode, spoiler[it was love]. It was through spoiler[love that Maria can be not just believed in by others], but that she can spoiler[believe in herself and in others]. She can be put on the spoiler[wrong side of others, but in that moment of believing in herself she can help everyone]. I guess that I understand why Galfa does what he does. I think it was the review thread that explained that Galfa kind of wants to be good, and he hates himself when he sees that he really is a no honour scoundrel. Especially so when he sees how good Joseph is, it makes him spout his reasoning for being unable to be like him such as being naïve, and generally makes him angry. But personally it does not make me sympathise with him since just like the episode said, if you want to be something you should just be it. I am not a big fan of Lolotte, sure her carefree nature and such can be humorous, but she is also pretty much a thief, and the scene had me thinking that there is little honour among thieves. Hey, Bernard may be a bit of a bastard, but he is not wrong in saying that almost anything can be used to make the world a better place. If only it was done to protect people and not suffering or abuse people who really want to help. |
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ANN_Lynzee
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 2969 Location: Email for assistance only |
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From what I've gathered from watching the show, the Church of Earth is specifically targeting Maria over other witches and it's not because they genuinely fear her. I'm using fear in a sense of "I am scared of this, it might cause me bodily harm." The members of the church know that Maria will never physically harm them. The church targets Maria over other witches because she: 1) Does not maintain the status quo of behind the scenes influence that allows for strategic, profitable allegiances. 2) Her upfront interference for the general good threatens the Church's sway over the citizens. 3. They want to set an example to other witches who might take up her cause. Harming another being [and the Church and politicians tied to them did in fact orchestrate the highest level of conceivable damage it could to Maria] that bears you no ill will or threat, is different than you, adheres to another belief system is evil in my book. Which makes it ironic, probably intentionally, because there's a lot of similarities that can be drawn from Maria up until she's at the stake and the treatment of Jesus Christ prior to his crucifixion. Watch it with the idea of Gilbert filling in for Pilate. |
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