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Maria the Virgin Witch (TV).

When have we seen Gilbert spoiler[getting medicine from Edwina's familiar]? I can't seem to remember that

Some people have been saying this show is nuanced in its portrayal of the villains. That seems ridiculous to me. These are more or less the most despicable villains I've seen in recent shows. At least most of the other villains we see in anime have some larger goal in mind (usually conquest/world domination). I still am not really sure if Bernard and the Church have any goal at all in this show (and given Bernard's recent psychotic break and his sudden disinterest in Maria, it just makes him seem even more like a pointless villain).

Mysterious ways doesn't = asshole ways. That's the God that's been portrayed by this show. Christianity teaches about a merciful God, but we have yet to see any indication of that here.

There is a very good reason "some people" are saying the portrayal of the villains in Maria is more nuanced relative to a lot of other anime: it's because it is. To me the antagonists all have clear goals: Galfa wants to be rich (and bed lusty wenches - can't blame him there), Bernard wants to uphold the temporal power of the Church (the Jesuits hadn't been created yet during this time period, but if they were, he'd be one for sure) and Le Comte wants to drive the English out of France. Michael's goal is to preserve the dignity of Heaven while actively interfering as little as possible.

Maria stands athwart all these plans and desires, ergo the enmity. The interesting thing is that all these dudes have actually tried to reason with her or pursue methods other than just killing her (until recently). So yeah, in anime terms that's counts as nuance as far as I'm concerned.

The above was proven back in episode 3, when Michael was stopped from dealing the finishing blow on Maria and the whole virginity restriction came into effect.

CK, some of your comments truly puzzle me. First, you seem to require that a villain have some sort of clear, major goal (i.e. take over the world) or else he/she cannot be nuanced.

He was ordered to rape Maria and he did not.

I believe he stopped short because of some non-simplistic positive feelings for Joseph.

The very pliability you mention about Bernard is an example of his nuanced portrayal. A lesser show would have made him a cardboard cut-out of Church orthodoxy, which he is not.

Blood- wrote:

CK, some of your comments truly puzzle me. First, you seem to require that a villain have some sort of clear, major goal (i.e. take over the world) or else he/she cannot be nuanced.

That's not the only type of goal that they can have, but it helps if it is something more than the most crude, basest of human desires.

Blood- wrote:

He was ordered to rape Maria and he did not.

This has never been confirmed by the show. In fact, every indication that was given was that he penetrated her with his metal hand.

Blood- wrote:

The very pliability you mention about Bernard is an example of his nuanced portrayal. A lesser show would have made him a cardboard cut-out of Church orthodoxy, which he is not.

Again, what is the difference between him and a cardboard cut-out of Church orthodoxy? All we've seen from him is orthodoxy. The only hints that we've gotten at anything else have been undermined by his sudden and unexpected descent into utter madness. Again, that's not nuance. Insanity is not nuance. Nuance is someone with a larger agenda in mind that complicates how we see them, usually from a moral perspective.

Actually, this just proves my point - Michael can only do what God makes him do. You can split hairs about whether he is a manifestation of God if you want to play semantics, but he is essentially God's hand in the world in this show. He's not going to go against what God decrees.

No. A character's goal, whether large or small, is absolutely irrelevant to whether they are being portrayed in a nuanced way. You could have a nuanced portrayal of a character who wanted to take over the world. You could have a simplistic portrayal of a character who wanted to take over the world. You could have a nuanced portrayal of a character who wants to cross the street. You could have a simplistic portrayal of a character who wants to cross the street. Frankly, I find "I want to take over the world!" villains are usually treated simplistically. What I appreciate about Maria is that the antagonists actually have goals that are grounded in real world and psychologically understandable terms.

He was ordered to rape Maria and he did not.
I don't want to get into a "what constitutes rape?" digression here, but the show seems to be indicating that Galfa was expected to penetrate her with his penis and this enforced loss of her "purity" would prevent her from being able to use magic ever again. Whatever did actually happen is shrouded in ambiguity but it seems, based on the show's internal logic, that Maria's "purity" is intact, albeit perhaps not her hymen. I'm guessing that under normal circumstances Galfa would have had no problem doing what was asked of him. He has been shown to have a soft spot for Joseph before, so the fact that he stopped short, I think can credibly be interpreted as a "favour" to Joseph. That doesn't make Galfa a nice guy or excuse his actions, it simply shows that he has a way of behaving that isn't completely in line with a simplistic, black hat portrayal. And as much as he may have a soft spot for Joseph, I have no problem believing he'd kill him if he absolutely had to. Let's see how things resolve next week.

Your contention that all we've seen of him is orthodoxy is flat out wrong and contradicted by your own observations of his actions. Proposing to Maria that she use her powers to increase the glory of the Church is hardly orthodox behaviour. Nor were his other attempts to dissuade her from interfering in the wider world that stopped well short of violence and rape. It was only when it was clear that absolutely nothing was going to veer her from her self-appointed path that he, in essence, shrugged his shoulders and thought, so be it. He is not insane. Yes, he had the kind of meltdown you might expect from somebody whose faith springs from an intellectual, rather than spiritual, passion, but that hardly makes him crazy.

First of all, we have not yet seen any serious threat to the Church's rule that would necessitate their villainy. In fact, Bernard has been shown to have no problem whatsoever working with witches. He offered for Maria to become his disciple essentially and use her magic for the benefit of the Church. In his last scene with Maria, he couldn't even articulate why what she does is wrong. He was literally befuddled by her after she explained her views, to the point he became like some raving lunatic. If you had to characterize what Maria is/was to Bernard, the best you could say is that she represents some intellectual pursuit and nothing more. It would be different if she and other witches were openly at war with the Church and the Church then decided it would "eliminate all witches." That would be more of a legit goal, but we haven't seen that. Instead, at most, we've seen Bernard obsess over Maria to the point of creating an "inquisition" that is seemingly solely targeted at her village. We haven't seen them on a larger witch hunt and there's been no indication that any witches other than Maria are in danger.

I think Michael/God's supposed goal is even more off the mark. They're supposed to have a strict rule against intervening in the world, and yet God sends two (not one, but two!) of his representatives to directly interfere?

And I would think if Michael's goal was to preserve the "dignity" of the heavens, if he WAS going to interfere, it would be to stop his earthly representatives from raping an innocent girl in order to effectuate a condition he put in place.

You can split hairs about whether he is a manifestation of God if you want to play semantics, but he is essentially God's hand in the world in this show. He's not going to go against what God decrees.