Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2005-10-14]
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shenlongmizuno
 Posts: 51 |
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Real anime fans are those who support the anime companies by buying dvds. Smart real anime fans are those who watch fansubs to guarantee their money supports good shows and to discover hidden gems.
FUNimation can thank fansubs for the $200+ I've dumped on Fruits Basket related merchandise. I am the proud owner of all the pink/pastel dvds and mangas.. that I have to hide when my friends come over. gg |
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breakmanx
Posts: 7 |
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So, Andromeda, what, you're saying that no series should ever be fansubbed because it may be licensed, and once that happens there will surely be some people who continue to share it online? I'm not sure how that argument holds any water. Would not those same people merely rip the DVDs once they were released and share those if there were no fansubs? Anyway, there's never a guarantee that a show will be licensed. Yes, it's much more likely these days, but even for long shounen jump shounen shows it's not a 100% thing. Look at Hunter X Hunter - it's around 100 episodes including the OVAs, and it's years old and never licensed. The majority of anime still goes unlicensed. A lot of it isn't worth watching it, but... a substantial amount is. Saying fansubs shouldn't be made because people will distribute them immorally is like saying anime shouldn't be made because people will distribute it immorally.
As far as the issues go of how many groups sub licensed series... why don't you just go to a site that lists fansub releases (I don't think I can specifically list any here) and check out how many of them are yourself, rather than just looking at 1 or 2 of the most popular series and drawing a conclusion for that? I'll admit, it's not 99% of groups that don't do it... but at least 80%-90% of releases are unlicensed titles. Fansubbing is kind of a crapshoot. You can't really say that all groups produce accurate, professional, nicely typesetted releases of shows that are unlicensed and unlikely to be licensed. There are a good number of groups who have poor translations, "added in" swearing, terrible typesetting, and make their product within 5 hours of the licensed series (such as naruto) airing in Japan. But... don't support them! There's no need to treat every fan translation the same way. Many fansubbing groups do accurate work that's just as good as a professional translation, and if you don't want the glitzy karaoke, there are groups that do very plain ones, too; and do that work on something that's either new & still unlicensed or old and unlikely to be ever licensed. And lest you label me one of those "fansub watchers who just defends fansubbing as an excuse not to buy it", I have over 50 anime DVDs sitting there on my shelf, over half of which I wouldn't have bought had I not seen them in fansub form. |
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Lady Multi
Posts: 675 |
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Hmm...fansubs are becomming a little over-done nowadays. Used to you actually had to BUY the fansubs but that was because it took 3-4 years for the show to get lisenced OR it was Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball/DBZ and was mutilated~
But...the argument over fansubs' benefit is that there are those morons out there that don't buy the DVDs when locally released (Anime is a hobby...not a neccessity). I do own nearly everything I havedownload with the exception of those that make no sense (Narutaru; Lain)...those that aren't interesting why I never finished watching anyway (never could get into Cowboy Bebop)...those that have been mutalated (*cough* Tokyo Mew Mew *cough*)...those that you can't buy anywhere (there are a lot of these...mainly old stuff like "The Star of Cottonland")...and just things I haven't gotten around to buying yet (I can only collect so much at a time...boxsets are my friends). And don't call me a theif and a hypocrite~! I payed $60 for a RAW Japanese VHS tape just to watch a movie~that will never be released in the US~! (The movie, which is live-action but anime/manga related, is barely even recognized as existing...which is disappointing~it's good for its time-period.) Not to forget I have double coppies of some purchased anime~ Oh, and Dubs have drastically inproved... (Though I do say that "Slayers" "SlayersNEXT" and "SlayersTRY" were great dubs for the time they were released). After all, how to you both try to match the word with the mouth movents (to keep fans from griping) and show the apropriate amount of emotion (to keep fans from gripping) while trying to find voice actors that can live up to fans' demands (to keep fans from griping). In the end, it's a lose-lose situation to Sub-supporters. The only problem with Dubs AND Subs I have is "adding lines" (I could be refering to Disney's screwing with Neko no Ongaeshi/The Cat Returns; They aren't even speaking in the Japanese version, dammit~and there are subtitles!) *Shrugs* Naruto doesn't intrest me in any form or fashion...the dub sounded okay to me compared to the Japanese version--though I do hate that one of the "comming up next announcers" don't know how to pronouce Naruto...it's not that hard...(same thing goes with Subaru car comercials~haha~I cringe every time I hear the commerial--Sure the cars are slightly cool, but there is is no "burr" in it~! All you have to do is learn the Japanese alphabet to get it right...) Truly, its a issue of "accent", "announciation", and "style"... when making Dubs "suitable"...We (English Speakers/Complainers) have a diffrent language and say things diffrently...get used to it...or stop watching it...(no one is forcing you)...[/b] |
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Kyouha
Posts: 4 |
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I'm a little bit annoyed, again, at this week's Answerman response. I used to read Ms. Answerman everyweek, and I'm a daily visitor of AnimeNewsNetwork.com. I really appreciate the work that goes into this website, and I'm grateful for the effort that everyone who works here has put in to make this site so comprehensive. I also appreciate Answerman, and Ms. Answerman's thoughtful responses to inquiries, such as this week's Anime Magazine Writer inquiry. However, I don't appreciate the volume of inflammatory and accusatory diction that thoroughly saturated the rest of Answerman's responses this week - it was more like reading rants and slander than reading Answers at all. I don't think I'm being naive - I know this column is meant to be informative and also satirical. However, I, for one, wasn't laughing. It just isn't funny to simply lump together a bunch of people and slap them with a brand as if they were cattle, just so you can mock them. No one has the authority to carelessly do that, especially not someone who is looked up to as a valuable resource of information. I probably won't read the Answerman column anymore. It's just not funny, and not very informative anymore, as there's too much time is being wasted on simply tearing people down rather than answering questions. Does Answerman think he's writing articles for SomethingAwful?
Hey, Answerman: If you're looking for people on pedestals, first get off the one you're standing on. |
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Vukir
 Posts: 66 Location: California |
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The general argument would be summed up as "The Japanese get it for free on television, so why do the Americans have to pay 5-10 dollars an episode for the same show?". Frankly, that is a valid argument. Don't get me wrong, I buy my anime. But at the same time, I can't help but feel a little cheated when I pay 5 dollars an episode for a series that runs 100+ episodes (Naturo, Dragon Ball(Z), Inuyasha, ect.), and the better part of an entire nation didn't have to shell out a dime to view it. I mean, I have 18 DVDs of Card Captor Sakura that I payed 20-30 dollars for each. $400+ lost to something that the nation of Japan got for free leaves me (and my pocket book) a little empty. Don't get me wrong though. I am not out to justify the Fansub Comunity. I am just saying that I can see where they have an argument. |
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Andromeda
Posts: 119 Location: Florida |
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So, breakmanx, what YOU'RE saying is basically you like putting words in my mouth and ignoring, in fact, what I ACTUALLY said? 
I never said that "no series should ever be fansubbed"... nor, of course, did I say any should, either. The fact is that I never referred at ALL to any such thing as whether or not fansubs were "right" or "wrong" or in a grey area or anything of the sort, so if you'd kindly pay attention to a few posts up, to the little comment I was replying to:
My point was not anything to do with the "rightness" or "wrongness" of fansubs (indeed, I still have some Sailor Moon Stars fansubs, because it's the only way I could view the Stars anime and we all knew it would be; additionally, if it WAS licensed and got a decent subbed version, that is, one that is noted for being unedited the way earlier seasons were released in unedited subbed form, I would have instantly bought the legal R1 DVDs and destroyed the fansubs. And, of course, con showings of fansubs such as Someday's Dreamers' first two episodes were enough to make me fall in love to the point of buying it as soon as I could afford it after the DVD came out in the US. So I'd like it if you'd stop implying that I'm actually completely anti-fansub). My point was that it's silly to imply that just because most fansubbers seem to stop once a license has been announced, and remove the torrents or files, the fact of the matter is that people will just turn to filesharing with it and "stopping" won't stop it, which was to me what the poster of that comment was in fact implying. Again, it had NOTHING to do with my opinion on fansubs themselves, it was merely an illustration of fact. So, please stop responding to something I never once said.
I fail to see how this contradicts my point that simply removing FANSUB links from a few websites isn't going to stop people from giving each other copies of FANSUBS over fileshare. And no, coincidentally, a lot them them wouldn't "merely rip the DVDs". Why? Because first, that would imply that these people BUY the DVDs, which if they're sharing the final episodes of a series, seems pretty darn unlikely (remember; what appears to be a majority of fansubs are taped off of Japanese TV). The people I was referring to are downloaders, not uploaders, so them ripping a DVD themself makes no sense. Second: your comment about "if there were no fansubs" is a moot point as well, because a.) There are fansubs, and they're here to stay, which means imagining the world if they had never existed is a futile exercise, and b.) I've seen both obviously fansubbed AND English dub versions on Soulseek. Therefore, BOTH fansubs AND the American dubs are being traded around, at least on Soulseek. However, again, this had nothing to do with the simple fact that once something has been uploaded, it can and usually is impossible to completely "end" it's distribution, because fileshare does all the work for you, without you ever needing to approve it or build a site or deal with it much at all. Which was my actual point, which if you had bothered to really read my post, you would have understood. Again, bootlegging of anime from DVDs had nothing to do with my original point, so why did you bother to bring it up?
Again, what has this to do with the fact that a show can and usually will be distributed via fileshare even after it's been removed from its original website?
Again, nothing to do with my original point, which you've zoomed right past by now. Or should I say, it zoomed right past your brain, via going in one ear and out the other and never making a pitstop?
Again, you act as if I am completely anti-fansub, or as if I made specifically, verifiably anti-fansub comments in my post. I did not. In fact, had you bothered to really read and think about my post at all, you would have realized this, or at least had enough common sense to ACTUALLY verify that this was what I was (supposedly) saying BEFORE you went off on me on something it turns out I never even said.
Your point? First, I'm not a moron, I DO happen to know that fansubbers almost always sub things only if they have no license. What with having watched occasional fansubs at home, friends' houses, and cons for the past 5 or 6 years. I was merely stating the veriafiable fact that ladholyman's statement that most fansub groups stop production after a license has been announced is a bit of a moot point because distribution of the fansubs will never stop completely due to the prominence of filesharing.
Not once did I state that there were ONLY licensed titles on there, nor did I ever once state whether or not I felt that this was specifically "good" or "bad". I simply stated a fact.
Yes. And your bloody point with this rant that is responding to something I never said is...?
Again, nothing to do with my point. And if you're no longer responding to me - because it in fact has all the appearance of you still doing that - you may want to, you know, actually indicate that?
Again, I can only assume you HAD to have been replying to others' posts, so please, darn well make that CLEAR next time? Because not all of us are on the bleeding "flat view", you know, and opening a post addressing a person without any transition between the point you make regarding what they (supposedly) said and the point where you start responding to others' posts has the implication of claiming that you are responding ONLY to things they said. On a side note, I don't mind the karaoke thing on the only fansub I've seen it on lately. For a non-native speaker, sometimes it's nice to see not only the original lyrics alongside the translation (something I think more DVDs should do), but also see which word/syllable the singer's on. I kinda wish some DVDs had that as an option (one that could be turned on and off, though). Of course, I've always wanted a DVD with an optional karaoke track for the clean open and close, so that could be just me. 
And now if you'll excuse me, I need to get some sleep in. G'night everyone. -Andromeda |
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ACDragonMaster
 Posts: 405 |
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Hey Kyouha, maybe Answerman just got a lot of unusually bad mail this week? And those are all issues that, frankly, deserve rants. If you've been reading the column so long, you've surely already seen how often the Berserk question comes up, and if you read just the most recent columns, you'd know why the Naruto thing earned itself a rant.
Or is it the fansubs bit that rubbed you the wrong way? What, did it hit a little too close to home? Hate to break it to ya, but Answerman is RIGHT about the whole fansub issue. Too many people treat fansubs as some great end-all authority, which they're not. They're amatuer translations and efforts, and they are, technically, illegal. Most anime companies let it go because they serve a similar purpose to anime airing on tv- people can watch it for free, and if they like it go buy the DVDs and stuff. But it's certainly not the amazing thing that's a fan's right to have access to that some make it out to be. |
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lazuline
 Posts: 66 Location: Park Slope |
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Well Put Kyouha. I'll take it from there. So when did Mr. Bertschy decide to become the Bill 'O Riley of anime journalism? It has now become clear that the Answerman column has an underlying agenda, for with each new column, the number of attacks against fansubs groups and the internet community have increased and become steadily more abrasive(read meaner). For fairness sake, Zach is correct in some of his assumptions on fansubs. 1) Fansubs are undoubtedly inferior to a professionally translated and subtitled domestic product. (with the exception of dub-tiled DVDs or in cases of massive editing). 2) There is a large camp of ignorant(half-retarded) fansub supporters who completely denounce domestic releases of anime (for the wrong reasons) and are firm in their belief that they shouldn't pay money for anime. However, to call ALL fansubs the product of "pretty despicable and hypocritical.. ...communist.. ...bootleggers" is an inhumane disservice against what the overwhelming majority of your readers would consider to be a labor of love. I don't think its fair that in your articles you exclusively use the "Anime-Chunkies" and "datebacho's" of the fansub world to represent the entire community. Aside from these "zero-day" fansubs (and their botched, but humorous translation), there are a sizeable number of groups that slave for days to bring translated anime to international fans -- A service that they provide for free. (save a few lucky donations).These same groups are also strong in there conviction to cease fansubing when a series receives a domestic license, a practice that has been the un-official armistice between fansubers and licensers. And as many(ANN polls included) have pointed out, fansubing acts as an early means of previewing anime for purchase later and (if popular enough) spurs early interest in the likely television airing (i.e. Full Metal Alchemist, Naruto). That being said, this weeks Answerman brought these questions to mind: 1)Are we to believe that buying a product somehow rectifies the ubiquitous label of "real fan"? 2)Is a good consumer really the best anime-fan? 3)Doesn't the caption constest seem more like a marketing tool for the DVD being given away? Why include the distributor and the price of the DVD? For Example, this weeks contest states:
Keeping these questions in mind, I for one don't buy the rhetoric that was the closing statement of the Answerman's OP-ED on the topic of fansubs.
This statement is blatantly fallacious. A clear equivocation achieved by paralleling the legitimacy of one's fandom to the legal legitimacy of the anime that the fan views. This logic is commonly used in marketing products, a tactic that sells the product on the basis that the purchase of the product will include the consumer into an exclusive group. As one who has witnessed first handed the growth and evolution of the ANN, it saddens me to see "the internet's most trusted anime news source" favoring the interests of what would appear to be the Anime licensing companies rather than the interests of its readers. (I guess "fair and balanced" was already taken =P Ok, that was a low blow... no one deserves to be compared to FOX News). A better quote:
Journalistic integrity should be your first priority, I think the fansub community deserves an apology Zach. Last edited by lazuline on Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:16 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Kyouha
Posts: 4 |
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I made no issue with the seemingly endless argument about fansubs, Naruto-fans, or Berserk-fans. It's not what is said so much as HOW and WHY what's said. My issue is that this, primarily, was not a Question and Answer column but rather a scathing rant fest that sought to pick on people in order to be "funny". Whether or not it was a bad mail week for the Answerman, neither you nor I can say. But what can be said that is that it's unfair to take your bad experience out on your readers, and even as an amateur journalist it's just in bad taste. I don't really care what anyone else's opinions are on any of the "hot-topics" this week - what I care about is the total degradation of a column that I once considered valuable. I just hoped to call some attention to this, not start another flame thread.
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief
 Posts: 1684 Location: Los Angeles, CA |
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I can see why Zac's posts could be taken to be a little harsh (as a former fansubber myself), but frankly, I agree with him.
Fansubs are absolutely hurting DVD sales these days. If you talk to studio people and look at their numbers, the drop-off in sales of all but Cartoon Network-friendly crossover series after Bittorrent became commonplace is pretty frightening. Granted, a lot of that has to do with market saturation, but let's face it -- due to fansubs, nobody needs commercial releases anymore for their anime fix. These days, I don't know many fans that still buy DVD's. Every internet-literate fanboy I know downloads. Since most fansubs are DVD-quality digital TV rips, there's little compelling reason to upgrade. The industry is in significant turmoil on both sides of the Pacific. Armed with that knowledge, any real fan of any art form would support its creators whenever possible. The number of "fans" out there with this pseudo-communist sense of entitlement is pretty bewildering. These might not be the fans that post in this forum, but take a quick survey of anime fans next time you're at an anime convention... especially younger ones. Worse, HK bootlegs are still selling like hotcakes, and some of these newbie fans are confusing the ridiculous "translations" in these discs with legitimate DVD's. It's no wonder they think they're hack jobs! There are still uses for fansubs. There are lots of series out there that will likely never get licensed. However, it is my strong opinion that the merits are starting to get outweighed by the negatives. If this isn't the place for occasional soap-box statements on the subject, I'm not sure what is. |
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Mugen The Great
Posts: 189 |
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Somebody make an IGPX download with the script to some random Family Guy episode fansubbed onto it just to see how the crazy downloaders react when CN "ruins" the show.
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Jerseymilk
 Posts: 157 Location: Wouldn't YOU like to know. |
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Well they actually don't get it for free. See there's something called "cable and satellite" that is a service you have to pay for. They also get commercials during the shows, which also helps foot the bill for these productions. Last I checked, fansubs didn't have commercials in them. And so you can't see them on TV like the Japanese can....so what? Ya life isn't always fair is it? It's the same situation for them for our native shows here that they might be fans of. Now don't get me wrong people. I think fansubs have a purpose and they definitely have helped me decide what series I want or introduced me to some I might not have checked out otherwise. What ticks me off is these little 13 year-old new generation anime fans that suddenly think they're sub experts and Japanese version purists. Like Zac said, they actually think they're fluent in Japanese and are complete anime experts for some reason, when they don't know a dang thing. Quite frankly, I always disliked North American otakus in general, but now I loathe them more than ever and don't even attend cons and stuff because I would probably up end strangling one of them at this point. They just give such a bad name to anime fandom and ruin it for everyone else. I believe these are the people that Answerman was talking about. That Naruto idiot that wrote in is actually a perfect example of the kind of fan I'm talking about. The Naruto dub is one of the best ones currently out right now. And believe me, I'm a sub fan saying this. As to the "Naruto is an adult show" comment....I just have to shake my head and laugh at that because I go through the same thing when arguing with ignorant people about DBZ. They seriously believe that the REAL DBZ has tons of swearing, over-the-top violence, nudity, etc. Yep, Naruto and DBZ are adult shows alright. That's why in Japan you can get Naruto pencil cases and they once produced DBZ child-sized school desks for sale. And ummmm, the manga magazine both come from is called "Shonen Jump", shonen means "young boys".
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ChrisBeveridge
Posts: 162 |
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This is less and less true pretty much each season. More shows are showing up on pay networks and satellite channels. In other words, it's not "free" over the air. You have to pay to access it. Granted, you get other channels as well but there are those that run on specific anime satellite channels. I'm not familiar with their teiring but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't that different from how cable and satellite is done here. Then you can take into consideration OVAs and movies. Those are obviously being paid for to be seen and often a lot of money.There's all sorts of shades to it so I'm not really disputing your point but you also have to really understand another key point that often gets lots; a good deal of the shows out there today are existing because the US company have been making money and investing it in more shows to be made. Kaleido Star is an obvious example, Texhnolyze is another. There is no way that would have been made without Geneon US putting in the funds for it. And as production committees go, it's rare to find out who was involved so there are likely several other key titles that exist solely because people bought releases here. It's a cycle of life! |
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kirtai
 Posts: 10 |
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I'm with Kyouha. I found this week's Answerman column to be inflammatory, ill-informed, and frankly in bad taste. I also feel that the columnist was more than a little juvenile in most of his remarks.
EDIT -Ok, I retract my comment about Berserk. But I still don't find it humorous to lambast people who, *gasp* write into the "Answerman" column for answers. Especially not when the person complements you by calling you an "expert." As to fansubs vs. DVD's, my understanding of the industry is admittedly limited, but it led me to believe that the Japanese anime industry could care less whether or not anyone stateside watches/buys their product, so I don't see how buying DVD's "supports" the industry.
That may be true of some people, but not all. I speak fluent Japanese. Have since I was quite young. If you really want to know, my uncle was stationed in Japan for over 30 years, and learned the language. He taught it to me, and I have since taken classes to legitimize my knowledge. Anyway, I have many anime on DVD. First off, the subtitles are lousy. What I am talking about are the font and style, which the columnist criticizes in fansubs. I would rather have "guady" print, than that blaring yellow mess all my DVDs use. Secondly, I know that the seiyuu aren't the best actors in the world, but they are a darn sight better than the actor pools that dub companies use. What they pay those people is ridiculously low, and you get what you pay for. Even my fiancee, who can say "suki" and that is the extent of his Japanese knowledge, cringes when I turn on the dub. Not all of them are bad, but it seems like the shows I like always are. Fansubs are useful. They help you decide what shows you want to plunk down an excess of money for, and which you are better of without. Most important though, there are many shows that aren't licensced. Full Moon wo Sagashite is a very good example. Even though the manga has been brought over, I don't think the show ever will. It is too macabre for Foxbox, you know? If they did bring it over, they would probably butcher the storyline, ala Tokyo Mew Mew, to take out all the parts that might make children feel bad. So, fansub is the only way to do it. The point of that long explanation was that the columnist, like many ignorant people, sought to make himself look better through demeaning another group. It is very unprofessional, especially when you make such broad references to people that, polls show, constitute at least half of this publication's reader base. |
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ChrisBeveridge
Posts: 162 |
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So what you're saying is, the Japanese don't care that they're making money? "Oh, yeah, we can make money from our shows and merchandise but who cares, that's the foreign market." Just like any company, they don't leave money sitting on the table. And you know what? The money they make from the purchase of EVERY DVD goes back into funding MORE new anime. There's a very small market for anime buying in Japan and the sales pretty much reflect that outside of big titles like Ghibli stuff. The companies are becoming more and more dependent on foreign source sof income. Why else would you have companies like Bandai, Pioneer ne Geneon, Toei forming subsidiaries here? Shits and giggles? No, because there's money that CAN be made and NEEDS to be made. I'll say it again. The less that's bought here, the less that gets made in Japan. The less the riskier titles get made and the more we get the for-sure A+ sellers. And that's A+ in terms of selling, not *quality*. |
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