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Women in anime.

Bechdel Test for media:

Quote:

Does the media have: 1) More than one woman Do they: 2) talk to each other 3) about something other than a man

Whats confusing? This thread started out as a complaint over women portrayed in low quality anime, spiraled into a flame war on middle east culture (complete with some racism that really pissed me off, which is why I'm remaining silent on that count, lest I be banned), and is slowly getting back on topic (thank to mod intervention).
As for men who can cook and clean and whatnot, those aren't hard to find. I used to work for the forest service clearing dead treas in fire hazard areas, so that kinda makes me a fireman too^.^

This is sort of a confusing thread. What is it exactly that is being complained about? That there is a lack of strong, independent, non-sexualized, non-moe/whateverotherinterest-erized females in something that is targeted at males?

Stuff targeted at males has female characters with characteristics males generally like. These characteristics may not coincide with reality.

Stuff targeted at females has male characters with characteristics females generally like. These characteristics may not coincide with reality.

FINALLY,
Someone who gets it.

This is sort of a confusing thread. What is it exactly that is being complained about? That there is a lack of strong, independent, non-sexualized, non-moe/whateverotherinterest-erized females in something that is targeted at males? It has to be the male-targeted stuff that is being complained about, because the female-targeted stuff generally has the opposite problem. The males in the female-targeted stuff get "unfairly" portrayed.

I don't see the problem.

Stuff targeted at males has female characters with characteristics males generally like. These characteristics may not coincide with reality.

Stuff targeted at females has male characters with characteristics females generally like. These characteristics may not coincide with reality

Et all SNIP

As far as the watchmacallit test, inverting it is not very much fun, since 90%+ of big Hollywood movies pass, and a test that the vast majority of the highest profile media passes does not tell us anything distinctive about the media that passes it.

.. I think you really need to take a chill pill on the rest of it, or you won't really be around here for very long.

Even guys can get sick of how women can be portrayed in anime - I'm pretty much over the whole "helpless broken moe girl with no personality latches on to protagonist" thing, and I'm a guy. That said, there are plenty of girls in series such as Amigami SS (take the current arc for example; but then look at the complete opposite of the previous arc) or Kaichou wa Maid-sama who are capable, independent and strong, whilst still basically appealing to a male audience.

Id just like to say I salute thee, oh voice of reason.

Skylark wrote:

.. I think you really need to take a chill pill on the rest of it, or you won't really be around here for very long.

*ears lower*
Me? or mr. eyeofthetiger?

The thing is, some of us guys aren't capable, independent, and strong. We like having characters who are our kindred spirits. Capable, independent, strong people are the one's who need no one, have no patience for anyone, and generally just kick life's ass without even trying. I can't relate to those types of characters.

The emotionally dependent, broken, timid types are those who I can relate to. I can see myself in those characters and put myself in their shoes. They're my kindred spirits.

Whats confusing? This thread started out as a complaint over women portrayed in low quality anime, spiraled into a flame war on middle east culture (complete with some racism that really pissed me off, which is why I'm remaining silent on that count, lest I be banned), and is slowly getting back on topic (thank to mod intervention).
As for men who can cook and clean and whatnot, those aren't hard to find. I used to work for the forest service clearing dead treas in fire hazard areas, so that kinda makes me a fireman too^.^

agila61 wrote:

As far as the watchmacallit test, inverting it is not very much fun, since 90%+ of big Hollywood movies pass, and a test that the vast majority of the highest profile media passes does not tell us anything distinctive about the media that passes it.

I've thought about it and I'm starting to question what that test even proves. I'm sure even chesty mens from those romance novels have to talk to each other about things other than women when they save kittens, compare flannel shirts, and swap Al Borland style beard trimming tips. The best test I could come up with was:

1. Did you look at the post I linked to? At least half of the characters I named are from the past four years, including some from as recent as last season. If you just want to restrict it to the last couple of years, I can name other examples.

Never said they don't exist oO I said there is a lack of it.


2. Oh, I don't question at all that you can certainly find series like that every season. But is it pervasive? That I question.

If you're talking text book definitions, is it everywhere? No, exceptions exist. However, I stand firm when I say female independence is lacking in anime. I claim that the majority of anime does not reflect female independence. You, correct me if I'm wrong, is saying the opposite.


3. I'm not saying females shouldn't have faults. That's what makes a story. I concur. However, based on what I said in 2, I would like to see more animes where the women is the leader of the pack. More importantly not a figure head. I would like to see more women in anime not being used to strengthen the male's character(which happens a lot). I would like to see more women in anime not being exploited aka fanservice. I would like to see more anime where women are independent and don't make decisions because of the male.

Your response:

And how many male characters in anime you've seen recently make decisions partly or primarily because of a girl/woman?


Left quote because not clear on your question? More specifically how it relates to what I've said. Obviously a misunderstanding has occurred. The point I was addressing here are quality traits. What I've bolded. You only referred to the last sentence so...Anyhow, yes it is common to see men make decisions because of their female companions. The typical I must save the girl or protect her. What I'm addressing is how it is generally done. The female is usually the victim while the male is usually the hero. I'm saying that anime should break away from that norm. Also, typically in anime, when males are making decisions because of the female, it has nothing to do with self-sufficiency. Like I said, anime commonly uses the female character to strengthen the male's character. Honestly speaking, I believe a lot of anime can be done without the female. If me, a viewer is thinking that, then clearly there is something wrong.


4. And I work in a school (and a tutoring center) every weekday, so I have nearly as much direct contact with teenage girls and guys as you, as a teenager, do. I hear what they talk about, even talk to some of them directly about it. I know for fact that this goes on.

Hmm. Ok fair enough. This area maybe touchy to others so I wont delve into it.



4. Based on the American cartoons I've seen over the past decade, you don't see this substantially more in American cartoons than you do in anime.

Well, like I've already said, I'm an anime lover and apparently, I stopped watching American cartoons at a very young age. Therefore, I guess ur judgment on American animation is better than mine. However, from what I have seen, I find it hard to agree with you.